AR is the the problem. we didnt have a problem in our county till after ar was installed. Had more deer prior ar!

The 1.5 and 2.5s harvest post-AR implentation dropped 20 percentage points. Aren't you an anti-AR guy? I don't think that supports your argument.

Those are just the ones they know about. What was the mortality rate of the fawn crop for those years for those bucks that were in that 1.5 to 2.5 age category?

How many bucks in those age groups were left in the field, hit by cars, or processed outside of where they could be counted?

Figures can be skewed anyway one wants to skew them but the fact is, the numbers you post only tell part of the story. Those numbers only show that TPWD knows that the reported numbers dropped down but they don't reconcile them with survivability rates - perhaps there were a 50% die off that year in some of those counties? Just saying - nor do they (or COULD they) take into account unreported younger bucks.

Earl

What argument??? I never posted any AR argument, only my opinion on ARs, a few observations, and a link to a TPWD article containing some of their AR data.

After reading this post again, I only have one other comment. Hunters who kill illegal deer regardless of their believe in the AR law will always be illegal hunters regardless of the laws. They already prove they have no respect for the law. I will agree that judging a deer to be 13" @ 100 yards can be difficult if they are borderline. IMO, do not shoot. There were several comments made about "accidentily" shooting an illegal deer. IMO again, there has never been a time I pointed my 30-06 at a deer, fired and the end result was the accidental killing of the deer, not saying others didn't fire at a deer an hope they were going to miss. The shot was intentional, the judgement in the deer was not accurate and therefore you became a criminal by killing an illegal deer as described in the TPWD laws. JMHO, do not fire on an animal you think might not make the legal requirements, regardless of your stance on the law, if it's close, it is illegal, that is my approach. Stepping down now.....

People are going to shoot yearling spikes because the AR rules are contradictory. A lot of people think that does and young spikes eat better. This is not always the case though. I mark all of my deer when I freeze it. Last year out of 2 does, 1 young spike, and a mature 10 point guess which was best eating.

How many properties converted to mld w/ 3.5yo minimums since implementation? For every 1.5yo shot preAR in a 1 buck county a 2.5+ yo was allowed to live..etc. Folks just need to understand that certain areas are not capable of regularly growing deer like they see on TV... So to me ARs are an attempt to polish a turd in hopes it turns into something else. But with reports of TX having the highest deer populations it's ever seen pre-AR what exactly was wrong with the old ways, or is the population stemming from no antlerless in counties back over a decade ago? TPW is a gov run agency, the norm is to screw things up, take credit for something and fix problems stemming from what they did while screwing something else up.

What concerns me is that a possible increase in mature, narrow-racked bucks will not be seen because very little data is being captured to determine if such deer are increasing in numbers. I mean, the only hunters who can legally take and report them are those who are participating in a managed lands program. And I'm sure they constitute a very small percentage of the overall hunter population in East Texas.

The TPWD has taken the position that such an increase in narrow-racked bucks was not see during studies done in South Texas. However, anyone who knows Texas deer very well also recognizes that comparing deer genetics in East and South Texas is like comparing apples with oranges.

I strongly support AR's. But that doesn't mean they are without the need for review and possible adjustment.

Their data was flawed, it was mentioned in a scientific peer review, and they admitted it. For many of the counties they had ZERO deer, or only deer from Game Warden field notes. No way was it a valid scientific sample. They also relied a ton on anecdotal information from landowners/hunters/managers, who had a vest interest in skewing the data.

There was very little statistical difference other than protecting some mediocre bucks. It increased the pressure on the very young (spikes) and the good bucks (over 13).

So first we had Rustler talking about how I had no information to do a "before and after" analysis. And then that information was presented showing that ARs have, in fact, improved the age structure.

And now we have a bunch of, "but what those numbers don't show"...

If there were a strong argument against them, it'd turn up in the numbers. It isn't. All we have are hypotheticals and anecdotal evidence by certain individuals that are pissed off that they had to let a particular buck walk because he didn't make it.

I get it, they're not perfect. But they're better than the alternative.

And I'm fine with any tweaking anyone wants to do that might take away the spike tag or extra doe tag or whatever.

I see this isn't settled yet...

Actually the south tx genetic is the east Texas genetic

With a little Kansas mixed in.

East Texas was restocked.

Those of you against ARs in your county would make a much better case if instead of saying "ARs DON'T WORK" you said "AR's DON'T WORK IN MY COUNTY."

You will never win the first argument, because they obviously do work in some places.

I think most people here would agree, though, that they might not work everywhere

I keep reading these posts about how there were more deer before Antler Restrictions. You're right, you had more deer you could shoot at because most deer shot were 1.5 to 2.5 years old. The deer herd got blown away in East Texas. The State had to restock the deer in East Texas and put in Antler Restrictions so the deer could grow.

Believe it or not it works. I saw more deer in NE Texas than I did 5 years ago (In Lamar County, bordering Red River County).

Now everyone here says they see these big mature bucks that are under 13", post up these pictures of these deer. I want to see them. By the sound of it, there must be 300-400 pictures to be posted.

Fact is, antler restrictions work. It shifted the deer in East Texas from 1.5 to 2.5 years old to 3.5 to 4.5 years old being shot.

The only rule in east Texas I thought was stupid was the doe rules. Thanksgiving to Sunday? Really? How about 1 doe all seasons combined. It will allow hunters to pick a large doe rather than the first thing without antlers to show up to shoot.

Well it seems Parks and Wildlife has to make decisions on what is right for we hunters to do since it is sooo horibly devastating to the deer population to shoot 1.5 year old, 10 inch wide, basket rack 8 points. Seems like they [TPWD] think we are too irresponsible to make the determination for ourselves... The population dynamics of the ever elusive and clever Odocoeileus virginianus certainly runs far deeper than age structure and antler spread.

Again... I like my freedom, especially when I hunt.

East Texas has proved the hunters shoot EVERYTHING. You do realise the STATE HAD TO RESTOCK EAST TEXAS WITH DEER. Thats primary the reason for antler restrictions, because bubby and all his cousins shot everything that moved. It cost the state a ton of money to restock the deer.

Your FREEdom was taken away when hunting licenses and tags were first required by our Government. Like it or not, hunting is not your freedom, it is a privledge granted by the states. Play by their rules or don't play. I understand you dislike for the AR's and for each individual there is a different argument. There will always be BIG BROTHER no matter. The deer belong to the state and as such, they control them. Really isn't an argument to be made for or against. AR's are here, deal with them the best way you can. IMHO the doe population in East Texas is where the thinning needs to occur. I see 8-1 ratio and nothing I can do about it, certainly no reason to complain or blame the State for my deer herd.

This isn't even East Texas - it's North West (Young County) where width is not normally an issue. Most mature bucks up here will easily be 13".

For NW Texas, AR's were a solution to a non-existent problem. Even TPWD left Throckmorton a 5 deer county. Throckmorton borders Young and Jack and there isn't a bit of differences between the deer in these 3 counties as far as I can tell.

I fully agree with you guys on the silliness of the doe rules. I guess it comes from all the years I hunted growing up in Victoria. Victoria, Dewitt, Goliad counties - I kid you not I used to see 20 to 1 ratios of doe to bucks but we couldn't touch the does.

NE tx is not east texas.

East tx has/is fastly becoming one of the top producers of trophy deer in Texas.

East tx was not the only place in tx restocked..most of central Texas also.

AR effects everyone differently, I neither dislike or like AR's not a fan of the spike tag or a blanket program..but I can only think of one deer in my lifetime that at maturity would be questionable on AR's

How old you think that deer is?

They restocked after the depression..when folks were killing yr round. The reason is from a ton of small landowners wanting something they couldn't have consistently bc they were at the mercy of their neighbors and the large landowners not having a dog in the fight bc they could manage their core herd. The simple solution would be for the state to step out of it, issue bag limits and have it fall on the private sector to fund deer mgmt to achieve their desired goals...even if it meant them having to build fences. Can't complain about what the neighbors do if you know deer don't stay one particular property.

Personally BoBo I believe him to be 3.5. He has more size, sway in his back and a shoulder on him (not to mention neck and mass to his antlers) than my crop of 2.5 year olds - most of them of which are already 13" or better. Personally, I don't think this one will ever be 13". I know some think he will, but I don't.

Earl

I got him at 3.5 also...

Looks like you have an experiment on your hands, wonder what he will look like when fully mature at 6.5

Yep, I'll find out! Hopefully I'll get lucky and he'll spread out somehow.. Earl