Antler Restrictions! Rant

This weekend steeled my resolve in regards to the BS AR law....

I had a doe come running across the pipeline late Friday afternoon. This section of right-of-way is about 35yds wide, and less than 50yds from my stand. She had a 6 point right behind her. Then a smaller deer, appeared to be a spike, came out. I pulled the rifle up on him to make sure he wasn't a spike we'd been wanting to get off the place. It wasn't, turned out to be a really weird little 5 point we've been seeing. So then i hear another deer coming thru the woods. It busts out of the treeline, and it's a decent 8 point. he stops in the open for a second, I get the rifle on him, and can see he has about 10" G2's, and good mass. But he's facing straight ahead, quartered to me, with his head down, so i can't see truly how wide he is. He then trots across the pipeline and stops to put in nose on the ground to see where the doe went. He is now facing almost directly away from me, but his body is blocking any good view of the rack. He walks about 30-40' with his nose on the ground, turns broadside to me, then picks up his head and looks into the woods where the doe went. At this point I have seen enough to be 99% sure he's gonna be legal. He was mature, had good tine length, and good mass. So as I pull the hammer back on my Encore he bolts into the woods.

So I'm sitting there, let the hammer off on the Encore, and I'm cussing AR's under my breath. About 2 minutes later, I hear BOOOMMMMM from the direction my cousin hunts. His stand is about 300yds thru some thick woods from mine. I text him, "did ya shoot the 8 point", "is he on the ground?". He answers, "not on the ground, he was running".

So now I'm really PO'd. I tried to do the right thing and missed an opportunity on killing the buck, only to have another hunter, who is fairly experienced, take a pot shot at the same buck w/o even trying to judge it. So i text back, "did he stop so you could make sure he was legal?" Response was, "not really, but he looked decent". I think he got my point right then.

Turns out, he either missed the buck, or the 300mag with 180 gr bullet did not exit. I suspect the former. So the deer is still running around, hopefully, and maybe I'll get another shot at him or another nice(r) buck in coming weeks. It just sucks, because I would have been proud to take this buck, and missed an opportunity on a mature buck because I had to try and make sure he wasn't 12.5" wide. And by the time I did, I had exhausted all of the time he'd given me to shoot him by force-ably judging him. I could have had a bullet in him 2-3 different times, but he just would not give me a look at the spread.



I never liked it when TPWD forced us into their BS herd management. Now I hate it. I have a plan in case this ever happens again in the future. Probably not best for me to discuss that here though. We have always tried to make sure any buck we took was minimum 3.5 years old. I liked to take 4.5 years olds myself. I haven't taken but 1 buck in the last 5 years due to this management strategy. So I/we certainly didn't need TPWD forcing their elitist carp down our throats.

I agree. The TPWD needs to somehow modify the current AR guidelines so that hunters will can take mature bucks without regard to spread. The current AR were "supposedly" meant to increase the average age of bucks. If that's so, I feel other factors such as main beam and tine lengths should also be used so that hunters could take older deer that are otherwise being passed up, or worse, being left behind for the buzzards. Like yourself, if I see a buck with tines that appear a foot long, I'll probably want shoot him without seeing the spread.

But unfortunately, the TPWD doesn't appear ready to budge largely due to their belief that most hunters are not capable of using these other attributes to estimate age.

The complaint is "I've gotta take time to judge the spread" and your solution is to modify the law and ask guys to be able to accurately judge age/maturity?

Yes. The TPWD has only given us one guideline to estimate age. If other factors exist, why not allow hunters to use them as well.

I used to hunt in East Texas. This was BEFORE Antler Restrictions.

BEFORE : It could be months before I saw a decent buck! Everyone was shooting anything with horns.

AFTER : I would regulary see bucks of all ages. I"ve even had my fair share of Bucks that I've shot. I think Antler Restrictions are WORKING GREAT.

If you don't like them, get on the MLD Program. But there are a lot of hunters that will shoot anything with brown fur before looking. I like Antler restrictions for the fact it forces people to slow down and look at what they are shooting.

I'm currently on a lease that has a 16" Rule. So far its working out and people aren't shooting small bucks.

MLD, kill more doe......all BS....it shouldn't come down to that. The 13" AR rule is horrible.

There's no question that AR's have improved the overall quality of bucks in East Texas.

However, following a single, forward-facing guideline has made it more difficult for hunters to take deer that satisfy the older age class the restrictions were designed to increase.

Adding a guideline that would allow hunters to estimate age class from a side-facing view would be a good thing.

Case in point. This weekend I watched two bucks pass by me chasing a doe and obviously, neither buck was going to stop and offer me a facing view. In this case, a side-facing guideline would have been a good thing.

Thats hunting. I am loving the ARs its already showing real promise in parker county.

How about as long as the antlers are within an inch of being even with the ears in the alert position. At least it's a little give or take that way.

I would like to point out that around our area in ETX there were bucks of all age classes preARs & there are are still bucks around of all ages postARs. I do find it easier to age bucks that are dogging the does over getting spread estimates. I'm not whistling at the deer either for it to look my way (to see spread) to tell a 4.5+yo deer where I am so it can get stored in their memory; might be the last time that deer is ever seen if you spook him.

It depends on how you view hunting opportunities. I suspect many like AR's because it keeps hunters from shooting deer so they can shoot them.

I prefer restrictions that create more opportunities for ANY hunter to take deer that satisfy the target age class.

Where is this lease? The reasons you are seeing better deer is because people like physo are following the law and the buck harvest is down. The state needs to come up with something other than 13" only. After all it is not like you can ask the deer to stop while you take a measurement.

Genius.

Talked to my local GW this weekend about AR's, he stops by from time to time just to bs. He said he has only written 2 tickets so far this year for AR's. He agrees that from a management standpoint AR's are not perfect but the law is the law. Said he had a lot of folks email him pics of big mature deer that might or might not make AR's. He said he can't by law tell someone they can break the law. But it was nice to hear him say "he feels our pain"...

Well I admit AR's aren't perfect but I am an unabashed suppoter of them and am thankful TPWD had the guts to implement them in my county. I made a considerable investment in land 7 years ago (pre ARs) with the hope of someday having a decent place to deer hunt by managing the does and taking it easy on the bucks. The single greatest thing to assist me in that regard was the implementation of ARs-of that I have no doubt. I went from seeing a lot of does and goathead 1 1/2 year olds to having a really great place to hunt-well beyond what I could have imagined. If I have to pass up a good buck every once in a while for those benefits I'll gladly do it.At least now there are good bucks to look at.

There is no perfect system so you might as well quit searching for it.(If you think putting some sort of criteria to ensure age is the answer just wait till you see the confusion and chaos that would cause in real implementation of that. Hint:tine and beam length are no more age correlative than spread.)

This system is a VAST improvement over the old one for my money.

Seems like once a buck "matures" in my neck of the woods they become 99% nocturnal. No wonder East Texas sells so many spotlights!

What county do you hunt in?

I think the AR argument needs to be started with what county, because antlers/deer/hunters in SE Texas are vastly different than NE Texas


I hunt some in Red River, and am around a bunch of Fannin County, and I think they are ridiculous, and a total failure in those places.

I think the jury is still out in Archer Co; and I wish we had them in Foard County.

Out East Texas bucks act weird I guess, crazy concept but it seems to work. Many times I have bucks in my shooting lane which is only 6-7 yards wide and 200 yards long. When they are not looking or do not offer a adequate look at their spread, we just grunt or wheeze. Funny thing is, I have never spooked a deer using this technique and they always seem to look in the FULLY ALERT position. Now I am not defending AR's, I am just stating that they are useful and there are many ways especially at 50 yards to get a bucks attention. Perferably with the cross hairs already aligned.

I like being able to decide for myself what deer I want to shoot, regardless of whether it is 13 inches wide or not. It should be the hunter's choice. I liked the old ways because I like my freedom, especially when I hunt.

Big Brother knows a hell of lot more about deer and finances than the common folk. Have you not heard?

Maybe he will spread his seed around more since you never killed him and years down the road you or your kid, grandkids might take one of his offspring. Its kinda like paying it forward, don't look at the negative side of the situation, everything happens for a reason. I will tell you this there are places now that we get to enjoy watching young bucks running around now that the AR rule is in place, thats half the fun of hunting, actually seeing deer, back 10 years ago you wouldn't see any deer on stand... period. They are for the greater good, and teaches some of us patience.

This. Its not that hard to get a good look at a deer. A rabbit farts and they pick their head up and look around.
AR's = weening people off killing baby deer all their life..

But go ahead and make it legal to kill a young spike as an extra buck = idiocracy. Your "AR's = weening people off killing baby deer all their life" statement holds no water and that would be the TP&W's doings.

Supposedly spikes are frowned upon at a management standpoint and I agree with sig fan its definitley different for each county/region and I believe the law probably can be tweaked but no tweaking of the law will ever make everybody happy. Why do you hate the law curly?

I have stated my many reasons in the past....been back and forth with AR promoters and nothing has worked....I continue to hate them with a passion. My dad quit hunting for fear of shooting an illegal buck being the main reason plus I think that having to look at a buck's head bones long and hard enough in the woods at distances to make sure it will go 13" is total bullsh. Antler width (especially in East Texas) does not constitute a buck's maturity a lot of the time. It just constitutes a pretty buck. ARs won't make me quit deer hunting though. Some folks fuss about certain traffic laws yet they keep driving, kinda the same thing.

Best thing they ever did. Now if there was a way to stop people from shooting yearling spikes we would be some where.

Add me to the can't stand the AR's crowd. And in time after all the good bucks have been shot out of the gene pool and all we have left running around are the offspring of spikes, forkhorns, no brows, and mature bucks that were supposedly in the minority but were left to breed - it will be too late.

And don't give me the standard MLD reply either..there is no MLD for small acreage land.

Personally I'd rathr go back to one buck and it be the buck of my choice than AR's that allow a spike and a 13" or better..I'm sorry but with near 50 year old eyes even with good optics it's hard to make sure you aren't 1/2" off at 100 yards on a foggy morning when that buck won't be still because he's after a doe. It just adds a worry and complication where for me anyways for almost 50 years there wasn't one and wasn't a need for it.

My .02.

Earl

If I can't shoot my lil' 6/7pt next yr b/c his mass increase puts him <13", I'm going to be twelve different kinds of ticked..

I just hate to see the mature buck that is a really nice basket case that will NEVER be 13 inches wide his entire life. Eventually all the deer in these AR counties will all be like this and then the AR rule will change to 13’ tall instead of wide.

I support the AR, with that beaing said, if it where a matter of my family starving or not.We are eating whatever steps out..I dont care if he has a 1 inch spread,

AR's don't change genetics!!! Tyler County has the high, narrow genetics in bucks so how are AR's going to help that!!! TPWD implemented th 13" rule to improve the age structure of the bucks!!! PRE-AR's, we were a 2 buck County and after AR's implemented we are still an AR County but we can kill young spikes!!! Couldn't they have accomplished the same thing by just reducing the limit to 1 buck or would that make too much sense???

I'm not a biologist. Maybe the jury is still out on the subject in Montague County.

My game cameras for the last 4 years show that less than 10% of the bucks in my area ever make it to 13.5 inches of width. I see an awful lot of smaller bucks chasing young does. Maybe in a couple of years things will change. At this time, I'm waiting but seeing a lot more yearlings than I think the range will support.

Im with curly, ar rules are b.s.! Saw a 4pt that had to be 4yrs old and maybe more jump the fence and maybe a 10in. spread that will never be 13in and had to let walk and for all you ar lovers that say just shoot a doe if ya want meat. I hunted all 4 days of our doe season and never saw a doe! Since TPW implemented this laws the deer numbers have crashed and the hunting has gone to the crapper! Cant be allowed to kill 4 deer a year and still increase any age on the deer in hopkins co. I was able to kill a deer every year for 20yrs before ar and now i have killed 1 in 5yrs under ar rules and see alot less deer! Nobody will ever convince me ar rules are good.

I like these AR post there funny. The reason AR was put in place was to try and get the deer to maturity. You answer your own questions all the time. Did you make sure he was legal no but he looked good so that also tells me he did not know if the deer was two or six he just looked good running.

I agree!!! Still waiting for the magic dust to be sprinkle over Tyler County to change the genetics of the bucks!!! I saw more bucks and does 4 years ago PRE-AR days!!!

Exactly, the sheer increase in hunting pressure is offsetting any possible growth that might have happened in Red River County. Studies all over show how you can get a slight bump from selective harvest criteria, but that is all. The increase to two bucks and two doe from ONE BUCK ONLY has set the deer population back 20 years in 4 or 5.

I hear all the time how the pro-AR guys, mainly people that don't even hunt in an AR county, say they are great. Well maybe it works there, but when the deer have had years to mature (being protected and all), and the population numbers have crashed, there's not much to be happy about.


It's about time for someone to say
SHOOT DOES.
JOIN MLD
FORM A COOP
IT'S YOUR NEIGHBORS FAULT
GET TO BETTER PLACE
MOVE WEST.


Did I miss anything?

Then why the legality of being allowed a young spike as an extra deer? Once again, them saying the ARs are to let bucks mature holds no water as far as making sense. It's all about the antlers. Who really cares about spikes or deformed antlers where one doesn't branch? They are ugly, take them out. It's all about the ones with potentially wide pretty racks. Apparently all of Texas needs to be known for it's trophy bucks.

That's the bottom line there Curly!!!

Why shoot does, need more of them to produce bucks that might reach 13"

ARs were put in bc of small acreage

ARs were put in bc of a failed coop

Fence or buy out the neighbor if hunting is the reason for land ownership

Can't expect to find monster deer on every property, enjoy your dealt cards

West of 35 should get annexed into NM



Shoot that yearling spike if you have to kill a buck, or that 2yo that makes AR that hasn't been feeder broke.

Invest in a spotlight & the long stand.

Yes why not let the state know how you feel. They do have meetings, rules are changed often.

13"???
[----]






12.9"
[----]

Listen up:

ARs are awesome.

Carry on.

I love um also, and I like reading these rant threads.

Good entertainment!

Should have shot a

My thoughts exactly agsellers...I would honestly hate to know how many bucks a year are buried, or left laying because they were an inch or less away from 13. If that statistic were known along with the one of how many are shot but procesed in the field (and hence not included in state harvest accounting) - there is no way on earth that AR's could be proven benefitial for the long term benefital effects to the herd.

Not every under 13" buck that is killed is done so intentionally, I would imagine very few are. I would honestly hate to know how many children, teens, and even lifelong hunters were susceptable to a bit of buck feever and were unable to tell the difference between 12 inches , 12.5 inches, and 13 inches at 100 yards because the darn buck wouldn't lay down and let themselves be measured before being shot - and had turned an event that pre-AR's would have been a family memory to remeber for a lifetime and legal to one that is a misdemeaner and makes the person a criminal al for the love of a set of horns....

Earl

The folks that do this, were poaching deer long before the AR rules took effect. The fact is most people are abiding by the rule and "most" are seeing a positive effect from it, and I emphasize "most" because obviously there are a few on here who are habitually opposed to the AR.

I'm opposed to AR's!!! I think in some Counties it probably works but as a "blanket" rule it doesn't work!!! Some Counties like mine have the high narrow rack genetics so it won't work as planned!!! I'm happy that it works great for some of y'all!!!

Im lucky enough to be in a county that doesn't have ARs. Just wondering...If you are an honest law-abiding hunter and you accidently shoot a 12.5" buck, what do you do?

You should report to GW but there are some that will either process themselves are leave in woods!!!

So it is poaching to process your own deer, and not have it "counted" in the age structure survey at the local processor????

Is it also poaching when you take it to the taxi, since it is not included in the "age structure" count ??

Is it also poaching if the GW isn't at your processor when you drop your deer off and therefore not included in the "age structure count"

That's a new one from the pro-AR arguement...I'll give ya that !!!

I hear lots of stories aout folks breaking under 13" antlers in the field to make one "unbranched antler" or, as mentioned above, "field processing" the deer, attaching a doe head or teats to under 13" buck meat, and a number of other things to avoid getting a ticket for taking that 12.9" deer. I have even heard of people just leaving the deer lie or dragging it off, hiding it, and leaving it for the buzzards.

The more outrageous the law, the more outrageous the ways become to break it.

The number of deer shot and processed in the field or just left in the field due to not meeting ARs is nowhere near the number that were shot at age 1.5 just for the sake of pulling the trigger pre-ARs.

That's not a legitimate argument.

Not an argument, simply an observation. People are now doing these things because of the ARs. Before the ARs, they didn't do those things, simply because there were no ARs to follow.

I hunt in two AR counties about 150 miles apart. One place is 500 acres surrounded by smaller properties, the other is 13,000 acres surrounded by other large properties.

On the larger ranch, AR's make no difference. The bucks look the same today that they did 10 years ago. However, on the smaller property (which is actually very large for the area it's in) AR's have made things dramatically worse.

The issue on the smaller property is that with even smaller neighbors, they are shooting the first "legal" buck they see. They've been doing this for 4 seasons now and the results are pretty obvious.

In the 10 years prior to AR's, I typically took at least one "management" type of buck off this place every year and had others do the same. The only "big" bucks we would kill were very mature. Of course, that resulted in a very low harvest of "trophy's" but it was worth it. I'm an admitted horn hunter and don't apologize for it.

The issue I have is "bad" neighbors, but I didn't consider them to be "bad" before AR's. They are only "bad" now because they are following the law and takign young legal bucks when in the past they would have been perfectly happy with any buck.

Yeah, I could move on. Problem is, we've owned this land for over 150 years and it's a special place to me. With land prices extremely high in the area, the idea of buying the neighbors is not a reality. High fencing could be done, but I don't really want to do that and definitely don't want to pay for it.

AR's are like most other laws in that they don't really solve the larger problems and don't work uniformly across a state or even a county. With deer numbers increasing across the state every year, I think numbers management is going to become much more important than antler management. Personally, I hope to see some changes to the AR's.

It's a shame an ignorant law can make outlaws out of good people. I'm sure there are honest hunters out there who just knew they shot a legal buck only to find out it wasn't simply paniced, thinking about all the hell and fines that would come down on them, fines they don't have the money to pay, probably felt they had no choice but leave a perfectly good deer for the scavengers. Until it happens to someone, who really knows what he or she would do in that situation. It's easy to talk smack all day long about someone who did that when it didn't happen to you. I pray it never happens to me.

back PHishTX!!!

+1

Neither is yours.

Got a link to the data that shows the pre AR 1.5 year old numbers being killed versus the post AR's numbers being killed then left to rot or processed in the field.
Nope, didn't think so.
Just like the age structure data used to start this mess, conjecture using skewed data.

I'd bet the amount of young bucks being killed has increased due to AR's, pre AR it was 1 buck and done, post AR 2 spikes or 1 spike and one 13"+.

With the majority of spikes being young bucks it doesn't much to figure out more young-uns are getting killed post AR.

Less stressful to just shot does are hunt in a county without Antler Restrictions.

Lots of outfitters in west texas without AR's.

I don't have a link, but they had actual counts on the number of deer that were coming in at age 1.5 pre-AR and it was really, really high. You have zero hard evidence that a ton of deer are being left in the field or being field processed to avoid the rule.

But it is totally legit that "you'd bet the amount of young bucks being killed increased".

I guess it must be so.

The evidence would be a very high percentage of arrest and convictions, and if it were so much a problem there would be more reported by fellow hunters and landowner and don't think for a second old Bob won't turn you in.

Also the Wardens check it out when they see a large number of buzzards in an area, and I know this first hand.

They got high numbers cuz they counted at places those deer are normally taken.

What would their numbers have been if they had gone to a taxidermist to do their surveys?

H ell AT LEAST INCLUDE SOME of those in their data !!!
But that would have thrown their argument off I guess.

They didn't want accurate data or they would have TRIED to get it !!!

Nobody mounts 1.5 year-old teeny bucks, so a taxidermist is the last place they should have done the count.

Can someone walk me through the conspiracy theory explaining why you believe TPWD just decided to implement ARs to screw everyone? What motivation would they have to do that?

Regardless, they worked wonders in my county, so I love them and hope they're permanent.

We just finished up our 10 day gun season up here in Wisconsin. I've made the decision after pulling into the registration station/processing center/gas station/store closest to the hunting cabin and saw a parking lot full of 1 1/2 year old does and fork bucks. It hurt to see nothing but small deer laying there. I will no longer deer hunt in Wisconsin after this late archery season(Since I already have my permit) if for some crazy reason the move to Texas this fall doesn't happen.

I would rather skip hunting ever other year and put that money towards a hunt in MO, IA, KS or another big deer state.

The state has hired Dr Deer to help get politics out of the states deer management. For my very disgruntled hunter friends in this state I pray he gives WI a AR and limits the does harvest. Out of the 40-50 hunters I know as friends or talk to almost daily for work, 2 got what anyone would consider a mature deer. The rest either saw no deer(even though we've been told the deer population is at its highest since the 1970's) or saw small bucks they passed on only to hear a gun shot and see it att he processor later.

Now with all that said I do not think that you can regluate a state the size of Texas with a single rule. The state should be divided into "zones" and there should be a tolerance before tickets are issued, it doesn't makes sense to give a hunter a ticket for a 12 3/4" deer.

I'd bet folks have learned to be quiet and claim lots of misses. Wouldn't surprise me if there are heads hanging in secluded spots all over ETX, bc the wardens are stretched thin and they can't even cover a fraction of the land. Seismo crews in our area said they found quite a few while laying cables.

Again, the problemo is East Texas. Not ARs.

It wasn't broke in the first place. Imaginary fix to a problem that didn't exsist.

You are the one making completely erroneous claims, re read your own post.
Where is the data to back up your statement.

It's okay, we all already know.
The data doesn't exist, no one has any data or even a clue that would back your assertion that more young bucks were killed prior to AR's as opposed to post AR's.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_lf_w7000_1680_05_11.pdf

There is some of the said data from the original Pineywoods AR counties. See pgs 2 and 3.

You guys choose for yourselves what to believe...

It's a good problem to have.

They didn't want the "older" deer from taxi shops to skew their agenda !!!

AR is the the problem. we didnt have a problem in our county till after ar was installed. Had more deer prior ar!

The 1.5 and 2.5s harvest post-AR implentation dropped 20 percentage points. Aren't you an anti-AR guy? I don't think that supports your argument.

Those are just the ones they know about. What was the mortality rate of the fawn crop for those years for those bucks that were in that 1.5 to 2.5 age category?

How many bucks in those age groups were left in the field, hit by cars, or processed outside of where they could be counted?

Figures can be skewed anyway one wants to skew them but the fact is, the numbers you post only tell part of the story. Those numbers only show that TPWD knows that the reported numbers dropped down but they don't reconcile them with survivability rates - perhaps there were a 50% die off that year in some of those counties? Just saying - nor do they (or COULD they) take into account unreported younger bucks.

Earl

What argument??? I never posted any AR argument, only my opinion on ARs, a few observations, and a link to a TPWD article containing some of their AR data.

After reading this post again, I only have one other comment. Hunters who kill illegal deer regardless of their believe in the AR law will always be illegal hunters regardless of the laws. They already prove they have no respect for the law. I will agree that judging a deer to be 13" @ 100 yards can be difficult if they are borderline. IMO, do not shoot. There were several comments made about "accidentily" shooting an illegal deer. IMO again, there has never been a time I pointed my 30-06 at a deer, fired and the end result was the accidental killing of the deer, not saying others didn't fire at a deer an hope they were going to miss. The shot was intentional, the judgement in the deer was not accurate and therefore you became a criminal by killing an illegal deer as described in the TPWD laws. JMHO, do not fire on an animal you think might not make the legal requirements, regardless of your stance on the law, if it's close, it is illegal, that is my approach. Stepping down now.....

People are going to shoot yearling spikes because the AR rules are contradictory. A lot of people think that does and young spikes eat better. This is not always the case though. I mark all of my deer when I freeze it. Last year out of 2 does, 1 young spike, and a mature 10 point guess which was best eating.

How many properties converted to mld w/ 3.5yo minimums since implementation? For every 1.5yo shot preAR in a 1 buck county a 2.5+ yo was allowed to live..etc. Folks just need to understand that certain areas are not capable of regularly growing deer like they see on TV... So to me ARs are an attempt to polish a turd in hopes it turns into something else. But with reports of TX having the highest deer populations it's ever seen pre-AR what exactly was wrong with the old ways, or is the population stemming from no antlerless in counties back over a decade ago? TPW is a gov run agency, the norm is to screw things up, take credit for something and fix problems stemming from what they did while screwing something else up.

What concerns me is that a possible increase in mature, narrow-racked bucks will not be seen because very little data is being captured to determine if such deer are increasing in numbers. I mean, the only hunters who can legally take and report them are those who are participating in a managed lands program. And I'm sure they constitute a very small percentage of the overall hunter population in East Texas.

The TPWD has taken the position that such an increase in narrow-racked bucks was not see during studies done in South Texas. However, anyone who knows Texas deer very well also recognizes that comparing deer genetics in East and South Texas is like comparing apples with oranges.

I strongly support AR's. But that doesn't mean they are without the need for review and possible adjustment.

Their data was flawed, it was mentioned in a scientific peer review, and they admitted it. For many of the counties they had ZERO deer, or only deer from Game Warden field notes. No way was it a valid scientific sample. They also relied a ton on anecdotal information from landowners/hunters/managers, who had a vest interest in skewing the data.

There was very little statistical difference other than protecting some mediocre bucks. It increased the pressure on the very young (spikes) and the good bucks (over 13).

So first we had Rustler talking about how I had no information to do a "before and after" analysis. And then that information was presented showing that ARs have, in fact, improved the age structure.

And now we have a bunch of, "but what those numbers don't show"...

If there were a strong argument against them, it'd turn up in the numbers. It isn't. All we have are hypotheticals and anecdotal evidence by certain individuals that are pissed off that they had to let a particular buck walk because he didn't make it.

I get it, they're not perfect. But they're better than the alternative.

And I'm fine with any tweaking anyone wants to do that might take away the spike tag or extra doe tag or whatever.

I see this isn't settled yet...

Actually the south tx genetic is the east Texas genetic

With a little Kansas mixed in.

East Texas was restocked.

Those of you against ARs in your county would make a much better case if instead of saying "ARs DON'T WORK" you said "AR's DON'T WORK IN MY COUNTY."

You will never win the first argument, because they obviously do work in some places.

I think most people here would agree, though, that they might not work everywhere

I keep reading these posts about how there were more deer before Antler Restrictions. You're right, you had more deer you could shoot at because most deer shot were 1.5 to 2.5 years old. The deer herd got blown away in East Texas. The State had to restock the deer in East Texas and put in Antler Restrictions so the deer could grow.

Believe it or not it works. I saw more deer in NE Texas than I did 5 years ago (In Lamar County, bordering Red River County).

Now everyone here says they see these big mature bucks that are under 13", post up these pictures of these deer. I want to see them. By the sound of it, there must be 300-400 pictures to be posted.

Fact is, antler restrictions work. It shifted the deer in East Texas from 1.5 to 2.5 years old to 3.5 to 4.5 years old being shot.

The only rule in east Texas I thought was stupid was the doe rules. Thanksgiving to Sunday? Really? How about 1 doe all seasons combined. It will allow hunters to pick a large doe rather than the first thing without antlers to show up to shoot.

Well it seems Parks and Wildlife has to make decisions on what is right for we hunters to do since it is sooo horibly devastating to the deer population to shoot 1.5 year old, 10 inch wide, basket rack 8 points. Seems like they [TPWD] think we are too irresponsible to make the determination for ourselves... The population dynamics of the ever elusive and clever Odocoeileus virginianus certainly runs far deeper than age structure and antler spread.

Again... I like my freedom, especially when I hunt.

East Texas has proved the hunters shoot EVERYTHING. You do realise the STATE HAD TO RESTOCK EAST TEXAS WITH DEER. Thats primary the reason for antler restrictions, because bubby and all his cousins shot everything that moved. It cost the state a ton of money to restock the deer.

Your FREEdom was taken away when hunting licenses and tags were first required by our Government. Like it or not, hunting is not your freedom, it is a privledge granted by the states. Play by their rules or don't play. I understand you dislike for the AR's and for each individual there is a different argument. There will always be BIG BROTHER no matter. The deer belong to the state and as such, they control them. Really isn't an argument to be made for or against. AR's are here, deal with them the best way you can. IMHO the doe population in East Texas is where the thinning needs to occur. I see 8-1 ratio and nothing I can do about it, certainly no reason to complain or blame the State for my deer herd.

This isn't even East Texas - it's North West (Young County) where width is not normally an issue. Most mature bucks up here will easily be 13".

For NW Texas, AR's were a solution to a non-existent problem. Even TPWD left Throckmorton a 5 deer county. Throckmorton borders Young and Jack and there isn't a bit of differences between the deer in these 3 counties as far as I can tell.

I fully agree with you guys on the silliness of the doe rules. I guess it comes from all the years I hunted growing up in Victoria. Victoria, Dewitt, Goliad counties - I kid you not I used to see 20 to 1 ratios of doe to bucks but we couldn't touch the does.

NE tx is not east texas.

East tx has/is fastly becoming one of the top producers of trophy deer in Texas.

East tx was not the only place in tx restocked..most of central Texas also.

AR effects everyone differently, I neither dislike or like AR's not a fan of the spike tag or a blanket program..but I can only think of one deer in my lifetime that at maturity would be questionable on AR's

How old you think that deer is?

They restocked after the depression..when folks were killing yr round. The reason is from a ton of small landowners wanting something they couldn't have consistently bc they were at the mercy of their neighbors and the large landowners not having a dog in the fight bc they could manage their core herd. The simple solution would be for the state to step out of it, issue bag limits and have it fall on the private sector to fund deer mgmt to achieve their desired goals...even if it meant them having to build fences. Can't complain about what the neighbors do if you know deer don't stay one particular property.

Personally BoBo I believe him to be 3.5. He has more size, sway in his back and a shoulder on him (not to mention neck and mass to his antlers) than my crop of 2.5 year olds - most of them of which are already 13" or better. Personally, I don't think this one will ever be 13". I know some think he will, but I don't.

Earl

I got him at 3.5 also...

Looks like you have an experiment on your hands, wonder what he will look like when fully mature at 6.5

Yep, I'll find out! Hopefully I'll get lucky and he'll spread out somehow.. Earl

I never sweat one deer..disperal evens things out

I love when the ar lovers chime in and say, fact is they work! Fact is they work in some places and not others! I think they would work in hopkins co. if they would have left the spike and 2 does out of the works. And yea i know the answer to that question, just dont shoot em! How about dont make it legal to shoot em and then they wont get shot. Only person that can do that is TPW. iF THEY WOULD DO THERE JOB WE WOULDNT HAVE THE PROBLEM!

If there's one thing TPWD definitely likes, it's revenue generation.

Excatly! As I have said many times before, in reality, bottom line, AR = Antler Revenue.

I'm still on the fence about AR.

I hunt in Nac. county (an AR county) and this is only my second year hunting. This year we had all but one water source dry up from the drought and our land isn't connected so we didn't feed off season. I'm not sure how detrimental to antler growth this was, I do know it didn't help. I'll have to wait until next year at least to compare, and praying for rain the whole time! It was so dry that some of our 15 year old pine trees started dying not to mention it took care of most of our volunteers that had since sprung up.

So far this year I've seen a yearling buck with no antlers, a buck with an uneven and illegal rack (2 points one side and full 4 points on the other) an illegal 4 pointer, an illegal 6 point and one legal 7-point. And 5 does, though probably really 3 as I think the same yearling keeps coming back to one of our feeders and I think I saw the same mature doe twice in one day.

The four pointer and basket rack were buddies and the basket rack had a distinctive hide, so I know if they survive my neighbors and I see them next year they ought to have better racks according to AR thinking.

I know it isn't scientifically relevant in the long run but if we get out of this drought then there shouldn't be any reason for their racks to still be tiny, except genetics.

Thus the fines including B&C score. I still wonder if I shoot a 12" wide 200+" deer in the middle of 20k acres if they'll will bring me another one of equal quality for their retribution/restocking fee.

You know what I mean, the people breaking or ignoring the rules today are alot of the same ones that broke the rules 10 years ago, probably did not quote the best post to try and make this point.

I kinda really doubt that.

how old would you say this one is?










and this one?



and this one?

TP&W's law says he's too young to shoot. That's how we roll now.

apparently 13"+ deer aren't allowed on that particular ground scrape.

1 5.5- think he will make ar
2 3.5- probably won't ever make it
3 3.5(double throat patch) bet makes ar at 5.5

I know what the law is, but any GW that would write a ticket on that first buck if he came up a fraction short is downright evil...

What camera is that rifleman? It sure takes good night pics.

Earl

I'd say that's right on ages, but those deer in that part of the world aren't known for producing much width. Only way to know on that first one would be to pull the trigger & measure, imo.


I have several cams out trying to see if they still work, I believe that one is an old bushnell, but I could be wrong.

An old Bushnell? Yup sometimes there's nothing wrong with the old..........

I'm willing to bet that the majority of AR lovers out there were raised as "trophy" hunters claiming that they only shoot mature bucks for the health of the herd. So ARs fit right in to the way they always hunted. Had the TP&W created some kind of law protecting mature bucks where they could live to breed for the health of the herd and forced everyone to shoot does and unbranched antlered bucks only, AR lovers would be outraged.

PreAR camera for sure.

Curly, I love ARs because I love the Lord. And if loving the Lord is wrong, I don't want to be right. Now I'm gonna pray for you, and I want you to pray with me because he helped Joshua fight the battle of Jericho. He helped Daniel get out of the lion's den. He helped Gilligan get off the island.

So, in summary, ARs are the Lord's work.

Amen.

The THF has been fantastically entertaining today.

No, no, no... The good Lord fully expected hunters to wander in the wilderness for 40yrs before finding that buck of a lifetime & hitting promise land/pay dirt. And he was against HFs (wall of Jericho). FYI

Ok, this is all in jest mind you but my Bible says that God put man here to rule over all the fishes of the sea, wild animals and such - not just the bucks with 13" or wider spreads...dang TPWD rewriting th Bible...



Earl

The reason the state had to restock East Texas with deer was back in the 70s and early 80s they tried to manage it like the Hill COuntry with 4 deer 2 buck limits. You cannot do that with a lower deer density and 1 hunter per 5 acres.

Now that's kinda witty!

Sent a buddy down to hunt the place this afternoon with the criteria of whatever he shoots needs to be a for sure taxidermist bill... he said that first buck stepped out in the road a little before dark and there was no way he was 13" wide... But did say there's a 3yo 7pt that looks to be in the 13-13.5" range.

Not everyone can afford to hunt on big managed leases or large tracts of land. There are people that don't trophy hunt they just let them happen when they come that is the hunter's choice. Hunting used to not be just about trophy hunting. AR's make me sick, takes a lot of enjoyment out of the sport for young people also who we should be encouraging to hunt. Instead they will turn to something else when if they would have been successful at an early age they may be a hunter for life and as they grow older can be more selective in what they harvest.

disagree about the "takes the enjoyment out of it". I've got two boys, 12 and 16 that have grown up hunting with AR's and love to hunt. They take as much enjoyment out of taking does and spikes as the big ones. The 12 yr old hasn't shot a big buck yet, but that doesn't discourage him. The message your sending is everyone needs to shoot bucks regardless of size. Hunting "success" is much more than shooting a forked antler buck.
As long as there are places to hunt, my two will be out there for life...

ARs are more of a live donkey than a dead horse.

AR lovers are not trophy hunters - never understood this comparison. I just like the opporuntiy at a 120" inch deer everytime I in a stand - AR's have provided this opporuntity. Prior to AR's I was lucky at seeing a 6 pt during any given year - meat hunter neighbors ensured any buck that walked out got shot. I have not shot a deer in 2 years but sure love watching the excitement in the stand as 2 mature bucks fight over a doe - never happened before AR's. Young bucks haul [censored] durng these situations - never would have seen this unless AR's were around.

If I was a trophy hunter I would be looking at something in the 150" inch range that is most likely only available behind a high fence with a rare exception.

Regarding kids hunting and AR's - I told my neice and nephew two weekends ago that when we were growing up we would see a mature buck about every 3-4 years - the response was "really", how boring. Due to AR's they have the opportunity to see mature deer, watch mature deer interact during the rut, harvest mature deer and have a great time just learning about how dear interact when you have a full age sprectrum of bucks -this would not be possible before AR's.

I notice that the Pro-AR people say that they are not trophy hunters yet they talk about bucks size in inches and anti-AR people talk about bucks in lbs!!!

Just because one spreaks of size in inches doesn't make him a trophy hunter. Its just another way of sizing a deer. We are all hunters regardless of how you judge a deer and should be under the same tree, not divided. I am not pro ar nor am I anti ar. I simply follow the rules and refuse to moan and groan about rules I can do nothing about. Get over it or go join pita cause there's only 2 groups here. Hunters and anti-hunters.

lighten up!!! I was just trying to inject a little jest in there!!! Hence the < >!!!

Well, this was a good read this morning. I've heard good points for and against AR.

I'm planning on taking my kiddo on a hunt in a county with AR in place. She'll be the one to get to pull the trigger.

It will be the first deer hunt in Texas for both of us, so I'll come back later on this thread, as of right now I don't have an opinion either way.

On a positive note, its nice you folks have kept the thread open with fair discussion, so it didn't get locked. Kiddos to both sides.

I still feel that if there were problems preARs it was an acreage problem, not a neighbor problem. There has always been old deer around, you just had to find them and some ppl who put in a little time and a little $ in the name of habitat mgmt couldn't find the time to pattern and find those older deer. Why? Bc it's hard to pattern what's not actually on the propert the majority of the time, but yet they see a deer a cpl times and have it showing up on camera regularly and it's automatically their deer; how dare someone else shoot a deer bc it didn't meet the standards set for yourself.

No matter how much you rant and rave TPWD is not going to change the AR's. If you don't like it get a lease in a county that does not have AR's.

It's sad but I agree, not until they receive enough public pressure and the funding to do actual hands on research in each county.
Then maybe they can adjust AR's to something approaching realistic.
In other words not in the foreseeable future.

TPWD does an amazing job considering they are treated like a buck toothed flop eared red headed step child as far as funding goes.

They had enough research to feel the need to change it, apparently they have the manpower to do it. The same could have been said as far as find a lease elsewhere to avoid implementation of ARs. The problem in our area comes from no one being able to change it bc the multimillion acre landowner wants their lease prices to shoot up and in the process of getting the majority of their places switched to mld3 to promote 5 months of hunting opportunity to justify the price increases.

The first word in ARs is antler, not age, hhhmmm. Unless you are talking ARs being Animal Rights, which there again both kinda the means the same thing.
I am very pro-hunting, ans very anti-AR. Yes, you can be both.

It's sure funny My Dad killed big bucks before antler restrictions were ever in place one in the 70's. 80's and 90's but now all the pressure has been put on the deer just over 13 inches now as soon as they reach that age they hit the ground. This has just been a tool by the TP&W to enable the landowners to raise their lease prices and in the process the small acreage hunter suffers. I have one good friend who is 62. He has several small tracts of land from 80 acres down to 20 and the genetics are just not there for wide deer. He said if the antler restriction would have been in place all these years he would have never shot a buck.

Cherokee county AR's must be a ghost

So prior to ARs, did you not have any bucks like that?

Yes we did but around 70% less than we do now.

The older your buck herd gets the more of these that you will have.The land that I hunt used to be Type II and it took about 8 yrs to correct what the average hunters had done to the deer herd.Now days you can go to your stand and have a better than average chance at one of these.They are easy to grow harder to kill.

Hasn't happened in my part of Wood County. Yes we all have game cams set up. I mean we have a few good ones, mostly night pics but then again, we had about the same amount before ARs. As far as antlers go, looks like ARs are working great for your neck of the woods!

well...hmm.. here's some preAR










even back in the 60s



...but no, big old deer were unheard of and could only come about b/c of ARs.

I call BS the pic with all the bucks on the bench is from a highly managed lease Called Bogg Slough.

Should have been Boggy

To get to where my lease is at we used trigger control.Meaning that we would harvest a doe for every 65 acres and no more than one buck for every 200 acres.Most years the bucks worked out to be about one for every 5oo acres.We still had all of our meat but it was from the doe and not younger bucks.Here are some of our bucks that do not meet our age requirements.

Smoke, how many acres you huntin' on and do you lease?

they're there & there were other places to hunt very similar to Boggy for folks to find big bucks if it was their top priority.

2 bucks in that set came from a 200 member lease where anything with horns was said to get shot. (one being the 190" 10, the other being the ?score NT)

Here's another that does'nt make the age

I hunt on 2300 acres and I lease from a timber company.

devil's bayou?

According to the TP&W's ARs, it's mature enough.

I was saying that Boggy slough is one of the most managed deer leases in East Texas, and has been for more than 50 yrs.Im posting deer from my lease not others

rifleman?

do you have any pics pre-AR.. fyi, I've hunted every place I posted pics from.

Just becuse it's leagal by TPW doesnt mean that you have to shoot it.Ive heard all the stories of passing on a buck and once it's out of sight you here a shot and assume the buck is dead.If that was the case I would not have any bucks left because I pass on a tremendous amount of them .My lease is low fence and I have private landowners on two sides of my lease.I talk to them about our management but it is up to them if they want to impliment it.

que?

(my cam checking duties were revoked on the large property by a bored 67yo retired fella..pics are few & far between)

The only people that hunt Boggy Slough are inveted guest.So who were you working for when you hunted there.It's restricktions are greater than AR's.

Devils Bayou is not a very good area to hunt.They do kill a good every now and then. The good thing about that area is low deer density.

It doesnt matter what rifleman or any other anti ar guys say because again just cause it works for smokecheckems area everybody else must be doing something wrong or everybodys a poacher! Gettin real tired of all the pro ar guys that basicly say we are poachers or brown its down crap. Got a real nice 10pt this year but had to go arkansas this year to get em. Thanks to ar my wife or kids wont hunt and are not gonna wait all year to maybe see a 13in buck.

Ar's are just a starting point.You really need to get more envolved than just AR's. Ar's want get you there by them selves.That being said if your lease is to small for mld then talk to your adjoining land owners and try to combine enough acres to make it work.Geting more people envolved with deer management is a god way to reach your goals.

The North side operates that way for safety hunts, vendors, auctions, etc.... south side is different and open for Temple Inland higher-ups & their families.

Thats correct are you family?

Yes I have some pics pre AR but there not on my pc,and do not have a scanner with me. Try to get some up latter.

I would have been considered family, then friend of mgmt personel

here's deer from places where no does are shot in the name of mgmt & the only criteria for harvesting a buck is it must be 5.5 (my call on that).. had the same caliber of deer back in the late 90s on nearby places.

Thats it 5.5 is the age when we start harvesting the bucks on my lease.So far we havent harvested one with aspread less than 14 inches that meets the 5.5 age.

What year did AR's go into effect

By the looks of these photos and the strickter than AR guidelines all is well.Who did you hunt with on South Boggy.I worked for TI for over 20 yrs.Forest Div

3 out of 3 on one lease didn't meet 13", it was managed just like Boggy from back in the 60s... they couldn;t do squat with it because of those dominant brush buck genetics of the Big Thicket & now they have/had Scrappin' Valley.

2004-2005 I believe, I was hunting Renfro during that time 90% of the time and running cams elsewhere.

Renfro has produced some very fine bucks but they have had lots of club issues ie not evryone being onboard.Lot of deer snuck out that woudnt meet rules.

The bucks in the pics you posted are they BIG THICKET BUCKS???

the deer out there went downhill when the biologists ramped up the doe harvests back in '03. That year of almost 280 followed by upper 100s put a huge dent in the pop & spilled over to Tower Club and other private tracts around it. I hunted the regularly flooded bottom off the CiCi road down around all the beaver ponds. I'd see a cpl 160" bucks during early bow season, but never could get one to step out once rifle opened, they had way too much room to hide in down there.

No, the bucks I've shot <13" that were mature bucks came from Forest Lake when I was a member down there and shot one as a guest. My buddy's son shot one down there this yr that weighed 202lbs that had an outside spread of 12.5" @ 5.5 3rd weekend of Oct.

I dont see how shooting does shrinks the racks of the bucks?If you large bucks befor you would still have large bucks after harvesting the does.I can see how the hunting would be more difficult for there would be more browse for the deer to feed on and wouldnt have to move as much.

It can decrease your upper end deer from a decrease in volume of bucks. They just didn't have the deer numbers after cutting them down to put out the bucks numbers needed for the 3.5yo minimum. Probably would have been fine at 5.5, but 3.5 cuts out several generations of bucks that need to be around.

So it's a buck killing problem not a doe problem.Just need to protect the bucks to get to an older age.Doe deer produce more fawns when at less than carring capacity then at capacity.Theres just more food avalible.When at less than carring capacity the fawns born will have a better recriutement rate for the herd,therefore you will have more buck fawns avalible to mature if you dont shoot them before they mature.It's basiclly a trigger problem

it's a trigger problem based on TPW #s. It is possible to overshoot the does. Kill too many b/c of poor population estimates & have a cpl years of poor fawn crops and you have shot yourself into a problem. Before the doe slaughter it was nothing to go down there and see 5-10 bucks a sit with a cpl being over legal minimum, a few years after the doe kill you could go several weeks without seeing a buck & the antler sizes did not increase. LF and HF methods differ because those deer just aren't going to sit around and starve to death, they expand their range, does drop off from groups to have fawns and stick around the food sources they've found, etc.

Yep thats right too many bucks shot.If you think you shot too many doe and your fawn crop is low just dont shoot your bucks.You have to manage your lease tpw gives guidelines.It is up to you to work with them and access your population dynamics come up with a plan that fits your lease.Seen this probelm with many leases.

If you are worried about poor population estimates i would suggest a cammera study. It is usually about 90% accurrate.Plus it gives you a pic of allmost all of your bucks on the propetry. Been using the for three yrs now.

It would show you a lot of your bucks, but would still be a guessing game on does as it's kind of hard to distiguish between them from cam to cam. Same thing on observation cards when you have stands set up <500yds apart. Counting the same deer hurts you more than helps. And every place I've ever seen has those doe groups that like to go feeder hopping.

Its a simple ratio it might not be exact but even if it was off 10 - 15 % wouldnt hurt a thing.From my experiance with it it seems to be a whole lot better than spotlight counts.The thing is that know one makes a game management decission with just one piece of the puzzle.You have harvest data,spotlight counts, cammera surveys,browse surveys and hunter sightings if one seems to be out of line you can prove or disprove with the other data.It all works together.

i have no problem with antler restrictions. gives the young deer a chance to grow. it has worked wonders.

What is the true story here? No way these pictures are from East Texas - deer do not have the genetics to grow anything larger than a 10 inch spread in that part of the State - LOL

Pretty amazing to see what can happen when you lay off the trigger and do not put one person per 50 acres on a lease - with every meat hunter insisting on going home with a buck.

AR's work wonders - some people just don't like being told what they can/cannot shoot on a lease. I wish they would raise it to 16 inches with an exception of 10" long tine - solves the narrow rack problem.

How about an antler slot limit?

I don't recall saying you had to shoot anything. Just that the TP&W feels that a buck with a 13" spread is mature enough to take. I didn't make that up, it's in the book.

Your wasting ur time curly! Wont ever convince people that theres a problem if its working for them and they sure dont care if its not working for you.

Dadgum you can kill a ghost.Buck was taken yesterdayafternoon on my lease. 7.5 yrs

Nice buck

That is a good deer

Great buck, hunter might want a do-over on the pic.

But they do! TPWD made decisions for NE Texas based on years with zero to eight deer in their total stats for some counties. Several years of the pre-AR data set only came from game warden field reports on illegally taken deer. There were no bio reports, harvest studies, or live census counts to use for Fannin, Lamar, Red River, etc during the five to eight years prior to AR's there; or since implementation. There's no evidence to support implementation or to support the success of AR's.

The anecdotal reports from most of the folks I've seen and talked to in the area, is that the increased bag limits are reducing the numbers dramatically. There just weren't the numbers to support that kind of population decrease, and now the hunters are paying for it.

There were good numbers there, and some bucks. Pregnancy rate was over 90%, survival rate was too. Hunters had to hold out for a nice buck, not shooting the first one they saw. Sure some did, but at least some were holding out. Now, every spike is shot on sight, and does are being exterminated en mass, and we are seeing fewer and fewer deer total.

While they may work great in areas that had the numbers to support it, it is hurting the population in areas that were just beginning to support larger number of deer. What makes that hard to understand, that just because it works in one area, it might not in another area?




Have you ever seen the area maps for eco-regions they used to implement AR's? There are parts of FANNIN and ANGELINA in the same eco region???????? HUNDREDS of miles apart.
Have you ever seen the difference in habitat from even southern Fannin to Northern Fannin? Southern to Northern Red River? Making blanket policies over large areas based on data from even larger areas (less specific) is a bad idea.

It was poor science, based on flawed data, and they know it. They used data from a few select areas in a heavy populated (deer) region and extrapolated to larger and larger areas. Basic science and statistics will tell you that's a poor practice. As did their peers in several reviews, including one they sought and supported at TPWD.

Now, they are under-funded, under-staffed, and ill-equipped to make decent judgements about the success or failures of the program on a county or smaller basis. And it's become a pet project, whose owner's have risen in ranks and power.

Yes, I speak out about it often. Successes and failures.

Yes, I am fortunate to hunt other counties, with and without AR's, but some aren't or choose to stay with family and friends that can't.

Yes, we have management plans on other places, but they are by choice, not government impositions based on poor science.

No, we haven't taken hardly any deer from AR counties since their imposition. In fact, prior to AR's we were only taking about 2 deer every three years by our records, hardly a brown it's down mentality.

I get tired of the over-generalizations from pro-AR guys that it is poor hunters, poor places, or poor poachers or neighbors that cause the problems. It's poor science and management that have made the largest changes in what we see.

The anti-AR guys certainly never generalize.

I dont

That's so true!!!

Nope we don't, we say they aren't working in the areas we hunt. That's not generalizing. When I say ARs suck, I'm speaking for my area and don't get why it irritates those who love ARs, those that it's working for and those that don't hunt with me.
I agree with Mr. Sig:
"It's poor science and management that have made the largest changes in what we see."
Sorry if some folks just can't understand that.

Please. I hear people reference how they've ruined entire counties and all of East Texas all the time.

And then someone from right around the corner will talk about how they've improved things where they hunt and it ends up being yet another case of user error that is so prevalent in certain parts of the State that I won't mention because East Texas already gets enough crap on this board.

mgmgt needs to be done on a tract by tract basis.. what works on some really nice mld3 leases won't work elsewhere. It all depends on your deer pockets, your acreage and if cameron is shooting the first 3.5yo that shows up under the feeder.

Oh please, admit it, you would be a lot more bored if it weren't for us AR haters. Don't be hatin me for hatin ARs...my AR hatred hasn't effected your hunting in anyway but ARs have effected mine. I find it awesome that you know for a fact that ARs haven't ruined anything. Maybe one day I'll witness it and believe it.

strange... people keep blaming TPW for poor management, but at the end of the day, there is still a finger on a trigger that kills the deer.

Either TPW can't manage property,or people can't manage their own property. The blame is being constantly shifted.

what was that old saying..... you can't fix stupid?

if someone that owns 50 acres believes it's prudent to load it with 5 hunters and allow everyone to kill a full bag limit, then I would imagine there will be fewer deer.

I will agree with you on one thing....you sure can't fix stupid. I'll leave it at that.

I find it funny and would be willing to bet if a small lake got fished out due to the fish limits set by the TP&W, the TP&W would get the majority of the blame, not the anglers, yet let the same thing happen with deer in a location and the hunters get the blame, not the TP&W. Different scenario, same principle.

Curly,

how is it the state's fault if people refuse to accept responsibility for what their property can hold?

a lake is an isolated body... the vast majority of property that is under AR restrictions are "open", and deer come and go.

Too much hatin', not enough appreciatin' ARs.

They're like a brother to you, Curly. Embrace them. Love them. Hold them close. Cherish all they are and all they stand for. Be an American.

That is all.

I will always hate them...

Sig and PhishTx have gone into great detail with facts and data on why ARs don't work in some areas.
Hoytman, Seadog, others and myself have explained it in our own way, a more simplified eye witness decline of hunting success in our areas since ARs.
rifleman has explained it in his own way as also why they are not good for certain areas as well.
I would think one of our reasons has to be valid enough for some AR lovers to understand our disappointment.

ditto

I think I luv'em in my county for now anyway. It's not my duty to like or unlike outside my area. Wish TPWD would let each county make their on call on AR's.

Folks, we have a winner!

If you have rules that say a buck must be 13 inches to be legal and thats what you hunt for or settle for then thats what your going to harvest.Mld's that im envolved with started with a 3 yr old minimum. Guess what after 4 - 5 yrs thats was being harvested.Others have moved up thier age to 5 and they are harvesting that age group now .Like I said earlier AR's are just a starting point.

Moderator what you describe is the trigger problem I talked about earlier.Just because it may be legal to harvest a certain deer does'nt mean you should.

Age management of the herd is what you strive for along with lowering deer numbers to below carraying capacity.Ar's are a way in which to raise the buck age.The shooting of the spikes does not raise your buck age.It's not the age of the bucks left but the ones you harvest that counts.

If you really want to shoot nice bucks YOU HAVE TO PASS ON THE SMALL ONES.Passing on small ones is like abstinence
it works everytime it's tried.

Maybe your forum name should be Ruler Checkem instead of Smoke Checkem?

You are right, let the trigger pullers make that decision. And if they are that bad, now that group of five in NE Texas on 50 acres can kill 20 deer, not just 5. sounds like great management to me from both the hunters and TPWD.

Why not let them kill ONE DEER, either sex. One Buck Only had seen the area we hunt in grow from God Awful to decent in about 25 years. Now two bucks two does has taken it back in 5 years.

Peace be with you, Curly. And also with me.

Back at ya cameron!
One and done deer hunting Sig....now we're talkin!
Meat hunters and trophy hunters can both be happy!

The co-op that Im envolved with consists of clubs that range from 800 acres up to 7,000. 23 different leases that all have the same minimums. 4.5 yr old buck. We strive for a deer per 14 acres for a stocking rate.We harvest one doe per 65 acres.Buck harvest is around one buck for every 200 - 250 acres.The point is these rules are stronger than AR's and our buck- doe populations are thriveing.Antler score has gone up from an 115 to a average 135.It's still improveing.

is that your way of calling me a closet trophy hunter?


I've seen what "p" poor mgmt initiated by tpw can do after getting handed a property that was former type 2 land. IF they don;t have a clue what's getting shot on public and manage that well, how in the world are the same methods going to work on private?

where about is this place (general area.. no gps coords needed)..and is Coon Pond part of it?

Hey I feel your pain about the 50 acre tract. I have those kinds too.I never begrudge a land owner of killing he's limit on a smalltract but what gets to me is when they invite all their freinds and relitives to do the same.Thats what promotes high fences.

My suggestion for private land is to try to get enough of your neighbors to go to gether to form a co - op and go MLD.It really frees you up to do what needs to be done.

Hey Curly caint use a ruler to measure my deer need a tape and calculator.

what if the bioligists differ in opinion by about 75% of the deer said needed to be harvested?

Western Cherokee county and Eastern Anderson

sig, you're saying two different things at the same time.... you're saying "let the hunters decide that AR's aren't working, and let the hunters decide what they should shoot"...You're also saying that TPW should restrict what the hunters shoot.

well right now the hunters are deciding to shoot too many deer, so do we listen to the hunters or not?

When you first go into mld a bioligist will accompany you on your first spotlight count to train how to do it correctly.After that it's your baby.Just remember the count is just one piece of the puzzle and by manipulating it will throw up red flags for it will not match the rest of the data.The browse surveys will always be done by wildlife bio.It is amazing how close the different data blocks come out to be.

They harvested a 170 class buck this year in COON Pond

never a browse survey taken and was advised to shoot between 80-100 does based primarily on spotlight count.

there's good genetics out that way. I remember an EX's dad taking me out there a few times a little over 10yrs ago to sit and watch.

If your talking about the Renfro lease there were browse surveys done and are still being carried out.

They generally dont tell you when they are out doing them.

You can request to be there and they will gladly take you with .Its a great learning exsperience.

talking about family land outside of Broaddus. The trip consisted of a spotlight count, GC pics & FIL meeting him at the office to watch him plug number into the computer.

Well all of our management plans have to have browse surveys,population estimates[ spotlight or cammera surveys]harvest data for 3 yrs previous and hunter sighting card data or TPW WILL NOT APPROVE.Thats my exsperience with 74,000 acres

We understand your rules are different from AR, and produced different results. I'd have been happier to not hunt at all for the last few years, we'd have monsters now, all of them over 13 inches. Your place must have had decent numbers and deer before AR's started, and you guys have done great.

But in areas with lower densities, it's just not working.

You could put in the strictest rules in the world on South Padre Island, it will not help the deer hunting at all.


People keep coming back to "you don't have to shoot them". Great idea. So why on God's green earth does TPWD give bubba the OK to shoot four of them instead of one?

It seems that you sorta agree that the 13 inch rule beats nothing but have major probelms with the spike tag and doe tags.

The land that I hunt used to be Type II and it took about 8 yrs to correct what the average hunters had done to the deer herd.Now days you can go to your stand and have a better than average chance at one of these.They are easy to grow harder to kill

i apologize for getting in this late and only reading about 4 pages of it, and i do not hunt to feed my family, i hunt for something to put on the wall. that being said, i am FOR AR's.

one argument i kept seeing over and over against AR's was the argument that there are a lot of mature deer out there that dont meet the 13" requirement that will die slowly in a creek or just wither away from old age....ok, can we see some pics then, of the PRE AR MATURE bucks you have shot that were smaller than 13"? and i think a 4.5 year old deer is what most would consider mature.

i dont claim to be an experienced hunter but it just seems that a very good majority of mature (>3.5 year old deer) would naturally be wider than 13", but maybe i am wrong.

bubba could shoot four... or bubba could shoot 1 and invite 30 of his closest friends to shoot 1 as well.

there's no policy to address deer per acre. It's all about deer per hunter, and that's a crap system.

Some places yes, others no. Ive seen MLD leases where 90% of bucks taken had IS of <13".. the habitat they live in produces those kind of deer, it'll need to change before pulling the trigger helps it any.

I'm throwing the bs flag on the "90% MLD harvested less than 13 inches".

I've hunted in a ton of tremendously lousy areas and have never seen anything even close to that.

This isn't lousy... It's river bottom brush bucks and you see a lot of them. Their weights are there, sometimes the inches are, but usually they produce mass and trash versus having a wide spread.

If you lived below Dam B would you want wide horns slowing you down as you flee from black panthers, Sasquatch & barefoot meth monkeys (no offense to any on the up&up in the area)

13 inches isn't very wide. A decently mature basket buck is usually 13 inches by accident.

One would think, it's not the way those deer are geared.

Hey I just got curious and measured some of my mounts and they have about 14.5 inchear tip to ear tip.A 13 inch buck want even be as wide as the deers ears.Now thats a tiny buck.

this is the type I'm talking about and is the norm for the place.





I shot a 10.5" 8pt in Feb of 2006 that went 127". Being as narrow and tall as he was, he looked like a monster walking head on toward me.

also..just b/c a deer isn't outside it's ears doesn't make it a small deer. That only accounts for a fraction of the score.

Exactly my point. It don't take many years for most bucks to get to 13". Let'em grow!

If you think thats a monster you would crap your pants to hunt with me.HA Ha

Looks like a clasic 2 yr old long legs compared to the body.Lack of mass and short tine length.

do the math to figure out how a 10.5" wide buck has to look to hit in upper 120s as an 8 with a lot of it being tine length.

if referring to the mule deer, how many 190s you shot?

The average mule deer has a 20 inch ear tip to tip.Thats a small mule deer!!!

5.5..live weight 202 lbs

First off that buck will score about 117. Has no tine over 10 inches.

S see your pics

I call bs unless the man in the pics weighs 450 lbs.Just compare the deer to the tail gate.

So what would you say the spread be on that one, estimated weight & score?

that's overshooting it, I don't imagine him to score over 105. The kid in the pic is about 6' 220.

I still would like to see a copy of a ticket along with a photo of a mature deer of less than 13"

Im talking about the whitetail that was supposed to score 127

Game wardens have discretion. So I will challenge all of you anti AR people to post a pic of the ticket and a pic of said MATURE deer.

that one was shot with a rifle 2nd or 3rd weekend of Oct, he'd be piling up tickets.

Oh ok I thought you were talking about the mulie

I'm not arguing that there aren't a bunch of narrow bucks.

I'm saying there's no way it's 90% unless it's just extremely isolated pockets. Not nearly enough of Texas has that kind of population breakout to even take into consideration.

he's not shown.. unfortunately the only pic I have of him is on a phone that's been tossed. Had head up rear and skull caps from that one and 2 others from 'fro got stole out of the back end of my truck at the Monterrey ramp the day after I shot him.

it's between where Seadog hunts and the river. The upper end where the experimental forests were plotted produces some wider deer, but they've been established for a while.

This deer was close to 14 inches, and he's pretty dang narrow in appearance:



I bet the majority of this site would have said he wasn't legal if I had posted live pics.

Brush Buck???

Is that a Cherokee county buck?

Big thicket deer?

No just a Cherokee county Neches river bottom deer.At one time in his life he was less than 13 inches.

Take a guess at what he dressed out at.

So you feel genetics are the same in Tyler Co than in Cherokee?

going to guess 130-140

In Texas you have two basic subspieces of whitetail the texas and the kansas and their crosses.The potential is there just most people dont let them live to a ripe old age.They just shoot them when they hit 13 inches

I would think they were pretty close. How far apart are the counties, 100 miles? They are even in the same region!

That's not like comparing Tyler county to Webb county or something.

Tyler county is about 85 miles south east

157 on the weight

you have the stx genetics, native tx and KS.. majority of East Tx was restocked with STX, some areas where folks had more pull got the KS. Area where I'm talking about wasn;t restocked near as heavy as most of etx b/c the deer weren;t depleted despite the year-round hunting b/c of the habitat they lived in. The results are big bodied, small horned deer that do get to reach the ripe old age of 5.5+ b/c of the management that's been in place since the late 60s.

The Kansas subspieces was the original deer of east texas all other are new commers.

The weight guess isnt close. try again

How many years do they need to grow?

They've had 5 in our area, more in others, where's all those monster deer? Those 1.5 and 2.5's we are protecting should be 6.5 and 7.5 Boone and Crockett deer if this stuff works?

Age is all it takes, right?

Like I said it is easy to grow them but they arent going to be dumb at the older age classes.Age is the first requirement then they have to have enough nutrition,

Rifleman i missed your guess earlier you was close he was 126. very run down from the rut harvested in late december.

How old is that pic? And how high was that fence

2006 no fence

This one was taken yesterday on same lease

that's generally the weights we would see in Ang Co along the river. That's what I hunted the majority of my life, deer down outside of Spurger along the river are just different. Body sizes are different and coloration is a little different.

Like I said, I think anything over 3.5 years old would be considered mature, so give them 3 to 4 years and I dont think 13" is even a concern. And who said Boone and Crockett? I am talkng about good, solid, mature deer, more like 120" to 140", not 170"ers.

no, its not all age, its genetics and food too, but again, show me some pics of these 5 year old deer with 12" spreads....it don't take much of those 3 things to get there.

this was in '10 (he's not 5 in that pic, but he didn't get any wider this year)



this one could go either way, depends on how much mass he puts on



this one wasn't making it



ARs basically target the young, dumb deer that look like this (the more points they have, the lower their chances of living are if there was a "brown it's down problem")

Not in the least my friend....I was saying you are on our side. You have your own arguments against ARs.

Naw I susspect yall wish you were closet trophy hunters.Come on out the light want hurt. he he

That's the problem, there are no deer! We went from seeing 10-12 every sitting to seeing none....

And they've had plenty of time now.

minimum number of acres per tag.... that will solve everything.

Bull crap it will...I'll fight that shiite tooth and nail. No 10 acres is the same, no 100 acres is the same. No one knows what is on my land better than I DO.

I hunt 100 acres and usually see 8-10 deer per hunt. There are people that hunt 1000 acres and can't say that. Every where you turn is a scrape, rub, or deer track. Over 5 years we've taken on average 2 bucks per year off this place and it still has more does and bucks than I can shake a stick at...never have taken a doe here, will this year.

I also hunt 240 acres which you probably still consider next to nothing and that 100 acres has more deer than it does.

Earl

so how many people around you see those same 8-10 deer? what if there were 5 people hunting on that 100 acres, and everyone shot 3 or 4 deer?

Kyle there are 2 people hunting the 100 acres and as I said we each average 1 buck per year - hardly over shooting it on the population we have. And there is little hunting pressure around me.

No one knows more about what is on my land, what is going on around my land, and what it can sustain than me. Hell I'm on it more than the landowner is.

Earl

Yep.

I can assure you that if you are seeing 8 to 10 deer on your 100 acre parcel those deer are also being seen by your neighbors.On my lease we have photo proof of bucks averageing about 1.3 miles of movement regularly.Not just during the rut.So what you do on your land effects everyone around you especialy on these small tracts.

+1 Like I have said what ruined East Tx was the state trying to manage it like the hill country.

I never said they weren't Smoke Checkem...hell, that's the whole point of the tank that never goes dry, creek, 5 acres of winter wheat, and year round feeders - to get them OFF my neighbors land..

Point is I don't fill my tags, never did. We don't shoot the place up and kill everything in sight. You can't legislate stupid. If somoene wishes to do that to their land whether it is 50 acres or 5000 - it is their own stupid decision to make. To make everyone pay for the stupid decisions of a few isn't the right answer. Small tract hunters have just as much right to the resources and often times such as is the case with me and my sons just as much ability to make sound concious decisions as anyone else.

Earl

No Offense Kyle, but ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the dumbest statement that's been made in this thread so far.

so the number of deer killed shouldn't be based on the size of the habitat? there should be absolutely no criteria for someone on 20 acres to kill a higher number of deer than someone who actually thinks about what their property can hold? On a previous thread you commented that your management techniques were holding good deer on your property... but now that AR's are in place, the neighbors are essentially shooting your deer... could it be that too many hunters are on too little acrage, shooting too many deer?

no wonder we have AR's....

Have to agree with Kyle! The problem is most hunters have no discipline and the most outfitters really don't care about anything but their pocket like a few right here on theis forum that think it is ok to stack 8 or ten guys on 1000 acres and think it is ok for all to shoot a buck. The panhandle can take 1 trophy per thousand acres at the most. I wish they would do exactly what Kyle is saying!

don't even get me started on day hunting leases....

don't get me wrong...I hate to hear that you guys aren't seeing many deer. I'd like nothing more than for people to post succesful hunting threads around here. But at the end of the day, the average hunter does jack [censored] for deer management. They go out, shoot some deer... possibly pass a couple on the way there, and say it's "management".

Please do i need a good laugh today

Just some more info The co - op im involved with gets a buck permit for every 150 acres and a doe per 65.So to apply this to private small tracts say 50 acres you would get a buck tag every third year.It's all habitat and deer densitys.

'


nope... I can't continue... doc said these forums are bad for my blood pressure.

by the way, go score that deer BMD... you have like 19 million posts... 1 or 2 more ain't going to kill you!

LOL

Yours and mine both.

yep, let's end it... I'll treat you to a drink of your choice and one of my blood pressure pills!

Ive enjoyed this little excercise.Ill buy a drink too!

Which deer

So is 20 acres in the HC the same as 20 in the panhandle (& 20 HFed in STX)? The doe seasons are going to be the issue, cpled with several less than mediocre fawn crops & now drought...and a possiblility of MLD managing shared deer.

I have blood pressure issues from the forum myself

No not saying it is same rifleman, but each region needs to have a set number per acre whatever the number be for that region.

But in east Texas they would have to allow for the poaching

I like Makers Mark and I'm on 2 BP meds myself!

Limits are done on a county basis.

it'll still be off. It's weird, but the pockets of deer are just hit or miss. One place could be loaded with deer, go a cpl miles down the road and folks would swear there weren't any. EX: would be a combo of a place my inlaws picked up and the lease I picked up bordering it totaling about 800 acres. It's not even worth hunting based on what I'm seeing because there isn't a concentration of deer on the place. Less than 3 miles down the road you would swear you had just stepped off in the hill country b/c there's a concentration of deer that would make HC hunters crap bricks.

multi-county since the introduction of the back log & also not mixed in would be the MLD quotas upping harvests for the county.

I train them where to stand for me while they're young (right between the tire ruts). I thought it was the same as feeder conditioning them

They are not my deer. Yes, we are holding better than average numbers on our property, mainly because of the habitat WE provide that the neighbors don't. I don't believe I ever complained, or even stated the neighbors are killing "our" deer. No doubt, they might kill deer we see, and any deer we might kill could no doubt be one they've seen. That's part of hunting on smaller parcels of land.

But to try and implement another blanket policy of one tag per "x' number of acres would not, by itself, solve anything. Just as a 13" rule, coupled with more liberal bag limits, hasn't or won't. It might work for some areas, but certainly not all. Not even most, most likely.

No system is perfect, I am the first to admit that. But blanket solutions are never the best answer either. My opinion is this...If hunters want to go out and shoot anything that walks out, they should expect to see less/younger/smaller deer. If hunters want to be patient, let the deer grow, then they can expect to see more/older/bigger deer. It's pretty simple, and pretty basic. TPWD should, like most bureaucracies should, admit this was a huge freaking mistake, and kneel on the ground before us to beg for forgiveness

You know that TPW could do what the western states have done.Block the state into game management units and have drawings for the tags.

I'd be fine with that.

Yeah, if the state owned the land like they do in those states

See we can find solutions.Colorado does this and has ranching for wildlife. It is large land owners that prove there manageing the wildlife on there land and in return it is handeled like a MLD property.Seems to work fine when i was up there.

This goes for private land also up there

Yes, but there is VAST land owned by the state, which is not the case here, I've been there too!

You go out west you have a choice draw a tag or buy a land owner tag from someone

This helps limit the number of hunters to the limited amount of game avalible.

A drawing system would never work. You have to look at the big picture. Do some idiots on 20 acres shoot the whole place up and thereby ruin the productivity of that place and surrounding land for years to come - undoubtedly.

But there are 3 million deer in this state with upwards of 500,000 harvested annually. That is alot of drawings if you were to look at it that way. To put it in perspective, states that are blocked into units and have drawings will have a harvest approximately 5 to 10% of that of Texas.

Like it or not, all types of hunters - trophy and meat have to get along because all types of them are needed to reduce the deer population to manageable levels. If the state only consisted of trophy hunters interested in 4.5 or older deer with 18" racks that are 150" or better - well, the requisite number of deer wouldn't be taken and drought or not you'd end up with a massive die off in portions of the state.

The state is big enough, the deer numbers are large enough (and growing) and thankfully so far TPWD is smart enough to allow for all types of hunters - even if some are stupid and take maximum advantage of it to harvest more than their particular patch of land should allow.

Earl

Texas is almost totally private land therefore land owners would be given tags for said area That limits the total number of hunters on each tract.No more 8 hunters on 35 acres.

what we need is accurate information for decision makers to use wisely.

Self ran surveys and counts are failed from the beginning, as the people running them have a vested interest in exaggerating. Real-life non-biased counts from mandatory check stations, doe first for buck tags, etc. can get us more accurate information.

Then we need to make harvest criterion based on local, small scale data. Taking widely varied samples and expanding to half the state is foolish at best.

The state preaches it's not about antlers, but the health and age of the herd. But in reality, they had poor data and the compromised that data, before they based a decision on it.

Using the numbers they had for the coops and trial counties, may help. Or in similarly populated counties. But to take that data and keep stretching it like a metaphorical giant prophylactic, can have the same results as a real one being stretched too thin......

By the way, in the ten years before the AR's started, Texas had the highest conception, birth, and fawn recruitment rates in the world...

From what ive been reading here the big gripe is the small tracts that have to many hunters and they all want to shoot there limit regardless of the areas deer censses.The other part is the feeling that the state put the limit to liberal.

The permit system should work in solveing some of this.Land owners get permits if you do not have permit you dont hunt.Buck and doe.Sig is right though you have to have accurate DATA to start with.

Permits just opens all new cans of worms.

For decades I hunted S. Texas where does could only be taken by LAMPS permits. Well guess what, most of the land owners down there thought that does should not be taken so wouldn't get the permits so it didn't matter how big a place you hunted - no does.

If Texas ever gets to the point where Joe Blow can't spend something less than his monthly salary to lease a small piece of land that he can hunt as he sees fit for him and his sons (or daughters) - then hunting as generations of Texans have known it ceases to exist.

I'm not a hipocrite. I can't say well I believe most portions of my life should be left for me to make my own decisions, to be governed by as little government as possible only in the areas of hunting and fishing I'm for more and bigger government with more regulations and more control and less rights for me to do as I want for me and my family...no way, no how...that isn't me and never will be.

Earl

Turn the game over to its rightfull owner.That is whoevers land it is on.But all this will do is make every land owner highfence his place to protect his game.No easy solutions

That would get ugly here in a hurry

Hasn't worked very well the avg Muley from Colorado had gone to hell unless it is on private land and then only in certain units

I'd offer up permits just like Bobo $$$$$$$

they did mess up on that..kinda... by leaving the limited draw areas alone too long and building huge herds prone to winter kill. BUT, I don't see us getting 25' of snow in TX

But it has helped. Colorado was going down hill in a sled.Populations are recovering but is is going to take awhile.Extream weather plays some role on how quick this happens.Weather has always been around but its a timeing issue of how it comes.

After a severe winterkill you usually have 8-10 yrs of waiting for it to get back right.. usually about that time you get to start waiting all over again.

Also proceeds from the ETX Governors tag goes to Rifleman WT Foundation.

When we first started our co - op there was several people who were very much against the idea.They were told to either accept it or find another place to hunt.Some left but the others that stayed are proud that they did.No matter what you do somebody is going to not like it just the way it is.

This here ain't Colorady!

the problem is if you have landowners versus leases, telling them to deal with it or leave is a sure-thing response of KMA...which is why ARs came about to begin with.

I'm curiously, rifleman...what does "KMA" mean?

AR AR AR I love it but it is a mute point if every doe that walks though someones 20 acre patch gets shot. I hunt in two different county,s that are AR. Both are better because of it. Both are west of 35 and the average land holding is 3x or 4x the size of east texas. They ( TPWD ) needs to ajust it out there

KMA = Kiss My Antlers, Ankle, Arm or arse.

since you're curiously, it means Knoxville Museum of Arts.. it's where you can see all the huge mounts from not joining a co-op.

Simple fix BECOME A LAND OWNER and reap the benefits.

Simple if you've got the money.

1000 acres ought to only run 880K-2000K to get on mld.

Wow....MLD is expensive! Thanks ARs!

or you can get on one as a lease, manage it, then have the LO kick you off when they decide the property is better off being sold (or donated to the gov)

That is why I'm on a 100acre place just with my family. I could never afford to buy a large spread - but I could maybe swing purchasing the land I lease if the landowner ever decides to sell. Might make for an interesting discussion night with the wife though...

Earl

lol... I wouldn't mention it unless it was a done deal.

Yes sir, wise man, pick your ditch to fight in......

Would need to be deep, sheltered & heated in case I'm living there a while

You know I have given a few ideas and all so far seem to be sevearly flawed by the responce that I have recieved.So I guess I will keep my MLD III status put up some high fence around the private tracts that do not want to go along with our management plans and leave the rest open.Then atleast I will be HAPPY,and the deer can grow to their potential.

Sounds like a great idea, and if I could afford high fence and that much of my own acreage, I just might change my mind. Until then I am opposed to blanket management practices based on flawed data and science.

I love ars

I wouldnt need but to fence about 1/2 mile to fence in problem land owners.Small acreage with 1 hunter per 15 acres.I wish they would just work with me but they dont like AR's and especially deer management.But management even works with nieghbors like this that join your propery.You just have to minimize there impact.

They would be problems with AR's or whatever though....

Just buy them out

Would have to from not being able to build structures on timber co land.

Ah, my timber company land... why didn't I think of that

I'd have to fence some water crossings to big for road & bridge to have culverts for and put the fence across an oil top

Dont want to buy them out for they have houses there.Just more effiecent to fence around the problem.Already have club houses.

I'd have a hard time building a fence on something that wasn't mine... there's not any timber company land that's not for sale.

Late to this thread, but.....

After hunting last season on a ranch under ARs, and this year hunting another ranch under MLD where we're exempt from ARs....both about the same size and same amount of hunters....it has become even more abundantly clear what a joke and how antiproductive ARs actually are.

Thank you wise sir.

It all depends on the terms of your individual lease agreement.

The majority say no permanent structures and never not been able to give folks the boot when land swaps hands.