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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BenBob]
#8754984
12/11/22 01:26 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,628
Reloder28
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,628 |
Gonzales Co. Is basically a one buck county. Granted a second buck can be taken provided it is a spike. I don’t hunt for antlers as they are inedible. But, a spike is pretty small in body weight. During the pre-season we usually catch 10-12 different legal bucks on the cameras. And, we don’t want to shoot our 8 or so resident does.
So, in Gonzales County, I would like to see a two buck allotment.
You don't know what you don't know.........until you know.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: Double AC]
#8755345
12/11/22 05:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,909
psycho0819
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,909 |
We hunt in an AR county, I'll shoot a spike for meat but only if its a 2yr old or older deer. No real reason that I apply to that other than a yearling simply doesn't yield enough meat to make it worth the effort and expense.With AR's our buck numbers across age ranges are exploding. Doe? Not so much. We saw a steady increase in both until a few years ago when TPWD changed the rules to allow doe during the first few weeks of rifle season. Sine then we keep getting more bucks every year, but the doe population seems to have plateaued.
So my suggestion to TPWD would be to take a closer look at the buck/doe ratio in our area and see if our experience is isolated or if it is a real problem that needs to be addressed.
I will say this on AR's though. I was not thrilled when they implemented them in Freestone county. Not because I didn't think something needed to be done. I just didn't like that we were already management minded on our place and their rules might inhibit us from taking a deer that we truly felt wouldn't damage the herd. But we are a smaller parcel among other smaller and larger parcels, and over the years I've seen the place go from the 70's when the "brown is down" mentality ruled, into the 90's when we actually started seeing more deer, better deer and got fully on board with management practices and habitat improvement, to now when I see enough deer to literally have a dozen or more a year named with that many or more filling out the ranks that constitute what I consider the herd in our immediate area. I have truly witnessed a complete turn-around in how things are done and the effect it has on the population. However, I do not feel the system in place at this time is perfect either. Every change they make in the rules will have an effect, and I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far on this most recent rule change.
Not discrediting what you see on your land, but I wouldn’t read too much into observed doe numbers in most cases. They are almost always under reported in my experience. If we followed camera surveys to a tee you would think we would have a 20:1 buck:doe ratio. Actual observations, probably a 5:1 buck:doe ratio. Helicopter, we see a 1:2 buck doe ratio and the increases in yearling bucks confirm that. Doe are almost always pressured out of feeding areas by bucks. If your buck population is increasing it’s likely because your doe population is as well, after all those bucks have to come from somewhere I get what you're saying, but my observations aren't just cam pics. I spend 100's of hours a year in the field observing deer in the off-season. I spend many more hours in the field off-season than on. I'm observing changes in the herd make up year around. Sure, we have cam's setup too, that only helps inform my observations. No doubt we are getting quite a few bucks displacing into our area annually, obvious when you start seeing 2yr and older deer regularly that you've never seen before. But there will always be a cause/effect. Allow hunters more opportunity to take doe and you'll have fewer doe. I am watching it play out on our place. It gets really interesting during the rut when almost every breeding age buck we have disappears completely and those of legal status hardly ever return. They are ranging out looking for doe and getting killed. I know bucks will displace out during the rut and others will displace in, seen it happen year after year, but lately we aren't seeing the bucks displacing in. Couple that with seeing fewer doe per bucks throughout the year and the evidence starts adding up. I realize our sample area is limited, but the sample time isn't in my case. Also, how much importance do we place on the age structure of the doe herd? If we're going to focus on the average age of bucks and claim it helps the herd to have their age increase, wouldn't it make sense to have more mature doe as well? Sure, young doe can breed too, but if all we care about is that they go into heat so they can lure more bucks in for us to see/shoot then I feel that's being a bit short-sighted. This is all being sold to us under the guise of benefiting the herd by improving the age structure, right? Why then, would we only worry about the portion of the herd that grows horns?
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without conviction.
The end of the world began the day it was created, and life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: txtrophy85]
#8755361
12/11/22 06:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,954
huntwest
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,954 |
Antler restrictions. It seems like we are selecting for small or narrow racks. I would like TPWD to mandate a re-education class for everyone who believes this Taking every deer over 13” regardless of age has to effect an effect on future deer size. Deer are like virtually same as livestock when it comes to genes and breeding. Anyone who raises livestock knows that you don’t use small inferior genes animals to breed you females. If you do you end up with small inferior livestock. Cattle, sheep, goats, pen raised deer. Doesn’t matter. AR rules might work on a large ranch along with age restrictions and light hunting. But can’t work in a broad sense. Most leases have to many hunter. A lot of small leases have a hunter for about every 50 acres. All of the hunters are paying good money to hunt and most of them are going to shoot every 13” deer they see.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: DocHorton]
#8755365
12/11/22 06:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,909
psycho0819
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,909 |
I've definitely seen less does the last 2 years after they increased the doe season in the area where I hunt. Last time I stopped by the processor it looked like 2/3 of deer in the cooler were does. I know it's a small sample size, but I do think it is having an effect. Doe season used to only be for 5 days I think, and now it's a little over 2 weeks. In Freestone before the rule change we had to either take our doe during bow season when no permit was required or have a permit from TPWD for each doe during rifle season. And TPWD was likely stingy with those permits for a reason. We'd get a single permit from them maybe every three years for our place. So evidently they felt the doe population needed a fairly stringent element of protection, right? Then they go from that to a free-for-all for the first few weeks of rifle season? That was a major shift in policy, and a recipe for disaster when it comes to the doe population. This year has been kind of weird for east Texas in general when it comes to hunting season, so it's difficult to use it as any example. But the last couple of years the amount of shots we heard from other properties in our area increased significantly for those first few weeks, then tapered off accordingly once the doe season was over. So either they were wrong for decades on past policy and corrected it with this rule change, or this rule change might have been a little too aggressive? The answer is probably somewhere in between the two. If the choice is between the two, I'd rather it go back to permits and archery only. Leave the AR's in place as they are since it really doesn't effect us significantly anyway.
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without conviction.
The end of the world began the day it was created, and life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: psycho0819]
#8755397
12/11/22 07:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,548
flintknapper
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,548 |
[/quote] Also, how much importance do we place on the age structure of the doe herd? If we're going to focus on the average age of bucks and claim it helps the herd to have their age increase, wouldn't it make sense to have more mature doe as well?
Sure, young doe can breed too, but if all we care about is that they go into heat so they can lure more bucks in for us to see/shoot then I feel that's being a bit short-sighted. This is all being sold to us under the guise of benefiting the herd by improving the age structure, right? Why then, would we only worry about the portion of the herd that grows horns? [/quote]
Valid point, just very hard to implement in the wild. MANY an unseasoned hunter is unable to discern the age of Doe Deer unless it is this years fawn standing right next to its Mature Mother.
Certainly, a Mature Doe is more apt to be a better survivor than a younger one, thus more likely to be bred and continue to contribute to the herd. Of course, its the larger, older Does that most folks will select to shoot.
On most properties the Doe to Buck ratio is out of whack (more Doe deer than Bucks) so perhaps in the end it makes little difference. There is no way to know which Does best contribute to the genetics of the herd without selective breeding, so we can only look at the Bucks as a whole and note any patterns.
Genetic diversity being what it is.....the average property can only try to keep the Buck to Doe ratio at a reasonable rate, the carrying capacity of the land managed and the overall age structure reasonably in balance.
Last edited by flintknapper; 12/11/22 07:37 PM.
Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: huntwest]
#8755445
12/11/22 08:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 12,838
kry226
The General
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The General
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 12,838 |
Antler restrictions. It seems like we are selecting for small or narrow racks. I would like TPWD to mandate a re-education class for everyone who believes this Taking every deer over 13” regardless of age has to effect an effect on future deer size. Deer are like virtually same as livestock when it comes to genes and breeding. Anyone who raises livestock knows that you don’t use small inferior genes animals to breed you females. If you do you end up with small inferior livestock. Cattle, sheep, goats, pen raised deer. Doesn’t matter. AR rules might work on a large ranch along with age restrictions and light hunting. But can’t work in a broad sense. Most leases have to many hunter. A lot of small leases have a hunter for about every 50 acres. All of the hunters are paying good money to hunt and most of them are going to shoot every 13” deer they see. The thing is, I don't think anyone, anywhere, is taking every 13" deer. That's pure, unsupported conjecture. 1. You cannot, through a system of hunting seasons, kill every deer, 13" or not. That's like saying in a certain herd that every 4.5 year-old deer is killed each year. Just not the case. 2. Cameras help, and a 13" buck just ain't that great of a deer. Many hunters understand they have numerous better/larger/older deer running around their property. Many 13+" bucks are passed-on each year. 3. You don't hear about many leases here on THF where 13" makes a legal deer. If I had a nickel for every time I heard, "Needs another year..." Under current conditions, I do not believe that the "we're genetically selecting for narrow bucks" holds much water. YMMV.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BenBob]
#8755457
12/11/22 09:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,608
fishdfly
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,608 |
Huh, landowners and deer lessors have a definite different definition on what is going on the ground, especially in East Texas. When lessors are paying, they want something for their money and bragging rights in the work place.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: kry226]
#8755489
12/11/22 09:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,954
huntwest
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,954 |
Antler restrictions. It seems like we are selecting for small or narrow racks. I would like TPWD to mandate a re-education class for everyone who believes this Taking every deer over 13” regardless of age has to effect an effect on future deer size. Deer are like virtually same as livestock when it comes to genes and breeding. Anyone who raises livestock knows that you don’t use small inferior genes animals to breed you females. If you do you end up with small inferior livestock. Cattle, sheep, goats, pen raised deer. Doesn’t matter. AR rules might work on a large ranch along with age restrictions and light hunting. But can’t work in a broad sense. Most leases have to many hunter. A lot of small leases have a hunter for about every 50 acres. All of the hunters are paying good money to hunt and most of them are going to shoot every 13” deer they see. The thing is, I don't think anyone, anywhere, is taking every 13" deer. That's pure, unsupported conjecture. 1. You cannot, through a system of hunting seasons, kill every deer, 13" or not. That's like saying in a certain herd that every 4.5 year-old deer is killed each year. Just not the case. 2. Cameras help, and a 13" buck just ain't that great of a deer. Many hunters understand they have numerous better/larger/older deer running around their property. Many 13+" bucks are passed-on each year. 3. You don't hear about many leases here on THF where 13" makes a legal deer. If I had a nickel for every time I heard, "Needs another year..." Under current conditions, I do not believe that the "we're genetically selecting for narrow bucks" holds much water. YMMV. There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas. I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed. I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see. As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#8755534
12/11/22 11:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 12,838
kry226
The General
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The General
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 12,838 |
What? you said in a previous post that its high grading now its " thankfully, TPWD decided to follow their own science..."
So now that they allow hunters to take spikes and bucks with unbranched antlers, everything is good right? Everyone should be happy that there is a loophole to the 13" rule and kids, first timers and old timers alike can be included.
As I understand it, the decision to allow hunters to harvest spikes and lesser bucks was based on the TPWD's own findings that bucks that don't have two forked antlers by their second year will very likely lag their peers for life. For that reason, they encourage hunters to harvest these inferior bucks early or BEFORE they catch the protection of the 13-inch rule where they can continue to spread their genetics when better bucks satisfy the rule and become open game. In this manner, the chance of high-grading (taking too high a percentage of wide-racked bucks) is reduced by removing these lesser bucks earlier rather than later. An approach that protects every buck for three years practically ensures high-grading, especially when it protects deer with poor genetics, as was the case with Mississippi's four-point rule. I see a change that would allow hunters to take three-year or older deer with racks that don't satisfy the requirement as further tweaking of the current system. Or more simply put, it would allow hunters to take those bucks that have slipped through the cracks. Yes, because the average texas deer hunter can accurately age deer on the hoof. Also, the spike study was done at the Kerr WMA, is a high fenced property and its findings go against every other subsequent study....Including the study done by the University of Mississippi. What retort do you have next? He knows all this don’t waste your time. He knows the Kerr study only showed that a STX 180” breeder buck line bred to his offspring is going to be bigger than a hill country spike line bred to the spikes off spring. They never cross bred the does for a reason. He tried to use Mississippi study knowing good and well they didn’t end up increasing harvest age where as the TX AR spread did significantly increase harvest age. More you increase harvest age more nullified the theory of high grading becomes. For the naysayers, and to add on to what BOBO and tt85 are saying, I believe the Mississippi study showed that the age structure improved (or at least the age structure of harvested deer improved), and they suggested but did not prove the 4-point restriction reduced (drastically in some cases) average B&C scores on public land. The harvest shifted from mostly 1½-year bucks pre-antler restriction (59 percent) to mostly older bucks post-antler restriction (42 percent 2½-year bucks and 41 percent 3½ and older bucks). We conclude the four-point antler restriction has reduced average antler size of older bucks on numerous public hunting areas in Mississippi. We emphasize these results were from public hunting areas, and that’s where the conclusions are most applicable... We can’t prove that the four-point antler restriction caused the decline in antler size within age classes because this study did not include scientific controls. The same study concluded that average B&C scores remained constant or improved on private land (5-17"+ difference!), thus illustrating the harvest practices on private land are normally not commensurate with management practices on public land. On these private properties, average antler size of bucks in all age classes remained constant or improved slightly after antler restriction. Texas is mostly private land.Finally, the same study suggested that in addition to a possible slot limit, a minimum inside spread of 13" was an appreciable way to combat "high grading." Maybe Texas was paying attention after all? A slot-limit antler restriction can allow the removal of lower-quality bucks, both young and old, and protect higher-quality, younger bucks from harvest.
For example, a slot limit could be used under certain circumstances that allows the harvest of bucks with only two antler points (spikes) and bucks with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. This antler restriction lets you remove low-quality yearlings while protecting the best yearlings. Also, you can harvest older-aged bucks that have 13 or greater inches of inside spread, regardless of how many points the buck has. Another potential pitfall is not being able to harvest some older-aged bucks with a very narrow antler spread (for example, a 3½-year buck with a 10-inch spread). To address this, you can add a criterion, such as an inside spread of at least 13 inches OR a main beam length of at least 15 inches.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: huntwest]
#8755535
12/11/22 11:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882 |
There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas. I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed. I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see. As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.
So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13…. Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that…. Don’t compare low fence deer management to centuries of livestock selective breeding and management , they aren’t even comparable. Show me one low buck that’s bred 100’s of does in his lifetime. DMP excluded. A buck that makes it to 6 years old might of bred 5-7 does in his lifetime, add in the fact he dispersed as yearling probably from 2 miles to more than 23 miles away, and then factor in that his buck fawns will do the same and disperse as far or further from their birth place…..
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: huntwest]
#8755557
12/11/22 11:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,630
SapperTitan
Taking Requests
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Taking Requests
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,630 |
Antler restrictions. It seems like we are selecting for small or narrow racks. I would like TPWD to mandate a re-education class for everyone who believes this Taking every deer over 13” regardless of age has to effect an effect on future deer size. Deer are like virtually same as livestock when it comes to genes and breeding. Anyone who raises livestock knows that you don’t use small inferior genes animals to breed you females. If you do you end up with small inferior livestock. Cattle, sheep, goats, pen raised deer. Doesn’t matter. AR rules might work on a large ranch along with age restrictions and light hunting. But can’t work in a broad sense. Most leases have to many hunter. A lot of small leases have a hunter for about every 50 acres. All of the hunters are paying good money to hunt and most of them are going to shoot every 13” deer they see. You realize many of these over 13” deer that are killed every year are 4+ years old right? That means they have been spreading their over 13” genes for Atleast 2-3 yrs
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: flintknapper]
#8755572
12/12/22 12:03 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,909
psycho0819
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,909 |
[/quote] Also, how much importance do we place on the age structure of the doe herd? If we're going to focus on the average age of bucks and claim it helps the herd to have their age increase, wouldn't it make sense to have more mature doe as well?
Sure, young doe can breed too, but if all we care about is that they go into heat so they can lure more bucks in for us to see/shoot then I feel that's being a bit short-sighted. This is all being sold to us under the guise of benefiting the herd by improving the age structure, right? Why then, would we only worry about the portion of the herd that grows horns?
Valid point, just very hard to implement in the wild. MANY an unseasoned hunter is unable to discern the age of Doe Deer unless it is this years fawn standing right next to its Mature Mother. Certainly, a Mature Doe is more apt to be a better survivor than a younger one, thus more likely to be bred and continue to contribute to the herd. Of course, its the larger, older Does that most folks will select to shoot. [/quote] Exactly, that speaks directly to my view on the change in doe harvest rules in our county. Not only do we have hunters taking more doe than ever (in my lifetime), they are going to shoot the larger more mature doe if given the chance. TPWD needs to rethink this strategy if they seek to remain consistent with their stated reasoning for AR's.
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without conviction.
The end of the world began the day it was created, and life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BenBob]
#8755581
12/12/22 12:19 AM
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 285
Jiggamitch
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 285 |
A rifle or shotgun deer season in Grayson county.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#8755582
12/12/22 12:21 AM
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Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 853
Double AC
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 853 |
There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas. I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed. I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see. As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.
So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13…. Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that…. Exactly. Pre AR these deer were getting shot at 1.5 because “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see”. Now they are at least making another one or two years.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#8755589
12/12/22 12:38 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,847
DocHorton
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,847 |
So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13….
Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that….
Don’t compare low fence deer management to centuries of livestock selective breeding and management , they aren’t even comparable. Show me one low buck that’s bred 100’s of does in his lifetime. DMP excluded. A buck that makes it to 6 years old might of bred 5-7 does in his lifetime, add in the fact he dispersed as yearling probably from 2 miles to more than 23 miles away, and then factor in that his buck fawns will do the same and disperse as far or further from their birth place…..
This sums it up perfectly.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: Double AC]
#8755645
12/12/22 01:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,469
rickt300
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,469 |
There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas. I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed. I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see. As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.
So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13…. Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that…. Exactly. Pre AR these deer were getting shot at 1.5 because “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see”. Now they are at least making another one or two years. Not true at all, paying for a lease means you have the time to select the deer you are going to shoot. “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see” is the most BS statement I have seen in a while. More small bucks were shot on public land than on leases. Makes far more sense to shoot a doe than a small buck if you can take your time hunting.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: rickt300]
#8755670
12/12/22 02:24 AM
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Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 853
Double AC
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 853 |
There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas. I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed. I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see. As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.
So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13…. Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that…. Exactly. Pre AR these deer were getting shot at 1.5 because “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see”. Now they are at least making another one or two years. Not true at all, paying for a lease means you have the time to select the deer you are going to shoot. “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see” is the most BS statement I have seen in a while. More small bucks were shot on public land than on leases. Makes far more sense to shoot a doe than a small buck if you can take your time hunting. 100%
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: rickt300]
#8755930
12/12/22 02:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 61,882 |
There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas. I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed. I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see. As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.
So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13…. Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that…. Exactly. Pre AR these deer were getting shot at 1.5 because “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see”. Now they are at least making another one or two years. Not true at all, paying for a lease means you have the time to select the deer you are going to shoot. “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see” is the most BS statement I have seen in a while. More small bucks were shot on public land than on leases. Makes far more sense to shoot a doe than a small buck if you can take your time hunting. Wether it’s public, private, over zealous farmer, road hunters or urban sprawl the effect is what’s being worked on via the AR correction We have to stop pointing fingers and just focus on education in support of a sustainability model that supports generations to come. If we don’t stop this, we get the TXdan nonsense trolling trying to play both sides against the middle with the everyone should get a buck, with means you are entitled to what ever you want, of course until there are none left, then we will blame trophy hunters… Ecological is fun to learn. More to hunting then just pulling the trigger
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BenBob]
#8755992
12/12/22 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,382
BenBob
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,382 |
Public land, day hunting, and quided hunts for a certain number of days with pay on the lower end I would think would account for most of the smaller bucks being shot with the idea of, '' I paid my money, I deserve a deer." When a person pays for a yearly lease there is some of this going on, but the hunter has more time to hunt and has more invested in the hunt.
Tired, Wired, and Uninspired
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BenBob]
#8756000
12/12/22 03:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,608
fishdfly
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,608 |
"the first legal buck they see” is the most BS statement I have seen in a while, tell that to an eleven year old.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#8756158
12/12/22 06:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,228
freerange
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,228 |
There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas. I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed. I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see. As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.
So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13…. Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that…. Don’t compare low fence deer management to centuries of livestock selective breeding and management , they aren’t even comparable. Show me one low buck that’s bred 100’s of does in his lifetime. DMP excluded. A buck that makes it to 6 years old might of bred 5-7 does in his lifetime, add in the fact he dispersed as yearling probably from 2 miles to more than 23 miles away, and then factor in that his buck fawns will do the same and disperse as far or further from their birth place….. Ill add on to what Bobo said about how few offspring an individual buck actually contributes to the local herd. You also have to factor in the low number of fawns just how few actually survive their first year of life. This year for instance, some are reporting almost no fawn crop at all, so almost zero animals will be put back into the herd from last years breeding. All bucks, Trophy/cull/young/old, could of had a condom on and the same genetics would of been passed on.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: freerange]
#8759622
12/16/22 04:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,469
rickt300
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,469 |
There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas. I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed. I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see. As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.
So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13…. Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that…. Don’t compare low fence deer management to centuries of livestock selective breeding and management , they aren’t even comparable. Show me one low buck that’s bred 100’s of does in his lifetime. DMP excluded. A buck that makes it to 6 years old might of bred 5-7 does in his lifetime, add in the fact he dispersed as yearling probably from 2 miles to more than 23 miles away, and then factor in that his buck fawns will do the same and disperse as far or further from their birth place….. Ill add on to what Bobo said about how few offspring an individual buck actually contributes to the local herd. You also have to factor in the low number of fawns just how few actually survive their first year of life. This year for instance, some are reporting almost no fawn crop at all, so almost zero animals will be put back into the herd from last years breeding. All bucks, Trophy/cull/young/old, could of had a condom on and the same genetics would of been passed on. On our lease where we made sure water and corn was available through the summer the deer are plentiful, still many does with two fawns and the deer we have shot are nice and fat. There are also more than a few deer that are over 5 years old. In the case of our lease antler restrictions are moot because we did our own management.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BenBob]
#8760033
12/17/22 01:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,801
TexFlip
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,801 |
How did I know this would devolve into an AR thread...
Just to make sure that it is done thoroughly, I go both ways.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: DocHorton]
#8760356
12/17/22 03:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,232
BigRon
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,232 |
No AR's for youth hunters 16 and under. This. We need more kids to get hooked on deer hunting. Getting a 12 year old up early and bundled up to sit in the cold just to watch basket bucks walk by that he's not allowed to shoot is a good way to sour a kid on hunting. And for those wanting to mandate "re-education" for those who disagree with their opinions on antler restrictions, maybe we can borrow old "re-education" camps in Siberia comrades?
Last edited by BigRon; 12/17/22 05:02 PM. Reason: I was too hard on AR's. Not opposed except for kids.
God is so good to me.
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Re: TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For
[Re: BigRon]
#8760383
12/17/22 05:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,630
SapperTitan
Taking Requests
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Taking Requests
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,630 |
No AR's for youth hunters 16 and under. This. We need more kids to get hooked on deer hunting. Getting a 12 year old up early and bundled up to sit in the cold just to watch basket bucks walk by that he's not allowed to shoot is a good way to sour a kid on hunting. Of course it's vital that a bunch of old farts who horn hunt can get bigger deer on their walls. And for those wanting to mandate "re-education" for those who disagree with their opinions on antler restrictions, maybe we can borrow old "re-education" camps in Siberia comrades? my 10 yr old son has had to pass 30+ bucks in the last 2 yrs. Some bc they aren’t wide enough and many bc they are too young. This is on Ft Hood public land. He still loves every minute of it. He understands it’s not just about shooting a buck but being patient and waiting for the right buck. Parents and grandparents wanting their kids to be able to shoot anything just bc they are kids is a great way to teach a kid to feel entitled. Make them work for it, teach them patience and that the reward for both will be much greater. If they don’t enjoy just being in the woods with their pops then maybe hunting isn’t their thing. With that said I’m not really against letting youth kill anything but I believe the reward for teaching them patience will go a long way. Maybe meet in the middle and only allow youth to kill any buck on youth weekend and late youth season.
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