TP&W Dept. Changes That You Hope For

WHat changes would you like to see in regard to hunting season, be it birds, deer, or whatever else. The changes can be in the season itself, the bag limit, etc. It seems to me that the seasons are always pretty much the same, as are the bag limits. If you have hunted for very long, you can pretty much quote the book on all of these seasons. It seems very little changes and just like everything else with no change, interest is lost. What would you like to see that was different and possibly would/could make a difference? The last big change I can remember is the MLD program in deer hunting. I know TP&W department offers a venue to offer change that comes from hunters in regard to the county meetings, but think about this now so you can offer up some worthwhile ideas when the opportunity comes along. Get some people to thinking now.

Muzzleloader season in mid December for mule deer in Panhandle

Be better to just make archery the last two weeks of Dec. for Mule deer.

NM late season rut archery season is a blast

With modern muzzleloader technology there isn’t much difference between them and a single shot centerfire rifle

I like Colorado’s rules where you can use an inline but can’t be scoped.

Why is the mule deer season so short? The lengthened it this season but why isn't it as long as whitetail? You only get one buck anyway so a longer season wouldn't greatly increase harvest rates I don't think. I would much rather have more time to be more selective on the one I shoot vs just making sure I get one during the short season

It would greatly increase the harvest. Season is designed to be well before the rut in most areas so the number of bucks shot isn’t near as great.

Most mule deer hunters in Texas are looking for a mature trophy not just to put a deer on the ground

Personally I would like to see the speckled trout bag limit go back to 5 fish in the lower Laguna

Or 10!!!!!

I’d be shocked if they ever go back to 5. CCA is happy happy

Utah and NM have scaled theirs back to more like CO and Idaho. Success odds where to high

I’ll continue to quit fishing then. Way too much time time and money spent to go down to land cut for 3 slot trout.

The truth….. to push bigger ranches to MLD. The success rates on top end mature bucks would climb exponentially.

Bigger ranches typically take less deer per acreage then smaller places

I haven’t fished Baffin since the regulation, even for tournaments it’s a rough run

One reason why we didn't even bother fishing down south this past summer.

That’s also why they probably won’t go back. I bet pressure in Baffin is 1/2 now.

I wouldn’t mind that either. Any option to hunt them in the rut would be better than just having to watch them rut lol.

Dont make me take the head of a doe out of the field when I can leave a tit on a hind quarter as evidence of sex. The coyotes can make better use of a doe's head than the landfill can

I would like to see a very limited public draw, archery only, hunt for turkeys and deer on the public land around Ray Roberts.

Allow deboning of meat in camp before taking it to the processor.

Do away with different deer seasons because its supremacist.

Just deer season, one weapon ain’t no more special than another.

If they wanna play that game it should be spear only until December

No stupid head thang.

If you hit a deer and stuck with the inconveniences and cost of getting your vehicle repaired then you should be able to keep the deer and the rack

You mean that’s not allowed….?

It’s not if you are not a cold storage facility but it’s pretty easy to set up

They changed it you can use udder as proof sex now

change whatever the coating is on the license & tags so it can be written on with some kind of normal writing implement without smearing.

I agree. Recently hunted CO for mule deer and was able to completly debone the meat which was nice and saved on cooler space. They do make you leave a testical or vagina attached to the meat as proof of sex.

Set the quail season dates and limits by county rather than a statewide season and limit. I don't know of a huntable population anywhere north of I-10 and east of 281 but all of those counties still have seasons.

Bring back bowfishing for catfish and make a noodling rod legal equipment.

This.
A lot of times I would have liked to do this at camp having nothing to do, I was always too tired to do it on the same day I got home.

x3

change antler restrictions to 3 on one side. We seem to have a lot of narrow bucks running around.

I grew up hunting Burnet, Lampasas, Llano, Williamson plus a few others. There was a considerable population of quail back then. One rancher in Williamson county I hunted on, told me that the fire ants had pretty much wiped out any quail he and his brother ranches (~3k acres between the two) and really impacted the turkey population as well. FWIW

Antler restrictions. It seems like we are selecting for small or narrow racks.

I know a guy who kills two does every season and always debones them so he knows how much meat he's giving to the processor. No surprise he's the kind of guy that would buy ammo by the individual cartridge if he could. He's never had anyone question him about it.

I would like TPWD to mandate a re-education class for everyone who believes this

No bag limit on javelina. I don’t have enough friends to keep their population in check by only harvesting 2 a year. They are as bad as feral hogs.

I actually believe Red pill is right.

Not regs, but I sure would like to see the Hunters for the Hungry programs expanded, supported, or even subsidized more. Getting MLD does to folks that could really use them is still sometimes difficult, especially away from the big cities and during the early season when it's too warm to transport them long distances. I know it has a lot to do with the regional food banks, and I haven't heard a whole lotta good about the Concho Valley (San Angelo) area food bank.

Oh there was proposal to make them into a MLD species also… should of heard the whining by the liberals about making them extinct

Barneywho did a big PhD project and I think we donated like 20 to either concho or Coleman I can’t remember.

That my work really well if you have good wide genetics, but if you have the narrow gene in the herd, old age doesn't help.

I add a legit MZ season

I add a legit window for those under 13, in AR counties....a weekend

So those who are legit and not just criers can cull those 4 year olds at 12

I wish they'd have a real data sample in every county, rather than anecdotal numbers.... Fannin County isn't getting better and doesn't have numbers to support 2 bucks in most of the county, same for lamar, Red River, etc. Just because it works one place, doesn't mean it will others. Most of the AR counties were guesses, and their own scientific review said so, but they kept the rule....



And create a cull buck tag in Foard and Hardeman, where we see high buck than doe ratios and crappy deer, that no one will shoot in a one buck county (IE one of the two bucks must be a spike, or have 2 or 3 differential in antlers per side)

Signing the back of the license is one they get you for because they can't find anything else. There is no good reason for it.

Same with logging whitetail on the back of the license. They do not make you log red drum, mule deer or Rio Grande turkey.

HIP is silly. I haven't been asked in five years (maybe longer) how many migratory birds I have gotten, and my license has HIP on it.

With the optional electronic license this year, I suspect it is actually a pilot program in disguise to work out the bugs before requiring everyone to use it. So you may get your wish and have no paper license to sign and all those animals will be logged in online too.
HIP is in a pilot program right now for Louisiana and some other states. You can't get it with your license in those states and have to go online yourself to get it or go to the wildlife office. I just hope we don't have to print it to create yet another thing to carry when hunting.
The new HIP will probably have yet another "administration fee" with it when you get it online.

That narrow gene still existed before AR's.....only now you get the chance to see what a mature narrow racked buck looks like instead of seeing it as a yearling at the skinning pole

I'd like to see the antler restriction width reduced just one inch (to 12"). This would still allow for most bucks (most places) to reach an age of 2.5-3.5 yrs but also allow for the taking of genetically narrow racked animals that are older. We have no shortage of those in East Texas.

It would also allow younger (or new) deer hunters a wider selection of animals to harvest. I feel it would still achieve what the TPWD set out to do (increase the age structure of the herd). Not sure how the magical 13" measurement came about, but I'd wager 12" would do just as well.

No AR's for youth hunters 16 and under.

I have heard it mentioned by many that the shotgun plug rule should go away. There is already a bird limit.

Yep, you are not understanding that killing off the big 13"+ bucks and leaving the 12" bucks to do the breeding is causing more narrow deer.

That’s a good theory but unfortunately not how genetics work.

This! Bringing in new hunter's is already difficult, let them shoot some deer and have fun. We have 5.5 million

I understand that does are a big part of the picture, but bucks also give half of the DNA in the mix. Just curious what county you hunt and if you have to live with AR's. Not being an AH, but not all areas have the same browse and nutrition as South Texas.

I would be fine with that during youth only weekend and late season where youth can only shoot bucks. I could see the system being manipulated by people wanting to cull bucks and using their kids tag to do it. In other words people would be buying all their kids license rather they hunt or not so they could use the youths tag. Obviously not the majority but some would push the limit.

Adjust antler restrictions to 13” or 5 on 1 side.

Back to a 2 week split for ducks.

This is federal law. Nothing TPWD could do about it, even if they wanted to.

Who cares? A kid shoots a deer and the herd gets managed. Poachers gonna poach.

High-grading is real and happens whenever you only remove animals with specific genetic traits. The folks in Mississippi learned this all too well with their initial "four-point" effort at antler restrictions. In just a few years they saw a reduction in quality because their approach was the exact opposite of what it should have been, to protect the small, basket-racked bucks with greater potential. Instead, they chose to protect spikes and lesser bucks. With this fact in mind, it only makes sense that if you only shoot wide-racked bucks and allow those with tall, narrow racks to continue spreading their genetics, another form of high-grading is sure to happen.

Needless to say, I would like to see a change that would allow hunters to harvest these narrow racked bucks before they have years of protection to spread their genetics.

Dan,

Using an antler spread restriction isn’t high grading. It’s a bell curve strategy that 90% of the bucks will have a 13” inside spread at 3 years old. 10% will hit that before 3 and 10% after 3 ( or not at all ). It’s the most effective way they found to keep a buck population from being slaughtered as yearlings, In the original AR counties 90% of the buck harvest year over year was yearling deer. 90%. So tell me how AR’s are ruining the deer herd when prior to them 90% of the buck harvest was yearling deer and very few ever made it to 3 years old.


The inside spread restriction has absolutely zero in common with a minimum point restriction in Mississippi or the results thereafter.

It’s not a perfect system as a perfect system will never exist and everyone will always have an example to cite of an old deer with less than 13” of spread but it’s the most effective way for Joe hunter to lay off shooting immature bucks and give the herd proper age structure.

Yep. I live less than 3 miles from 3 different bay systems and haven't fished for specs since all of this nonsense. Reducing the limit from 10 to 5 was bad enough, then down to 3 fish and it's not even worth me getting out of bed.

Catch your 3 and then go after black drum and red drum?

Yep Sap there's always that, and Flounder/Sheepshead/Mangrove Snapper........I just like complaining about the trout limit.

Seems more like a theory drummed up by the QDM crowd to say that 90% of bucks will have a 13-inch spread at three years old. Thankfully, the TPWD decided to follow their own science by allowing and often encouraging hunters to take spikes and lesser bucks that will buck (pun intended) that theory.

But I do agree there is no silver bullet when it comes to AR's.

TxTro explained his opinion well and I tend to agree with it.
I do feel for Old Rabbit and others that have a lot of mature bucks that are very narrow. I can only remember one mature buck where I hunt that wouldn’t meet ARs.

What? you said in a previous post that its high grading now its " thankfully, TPWD decided to follow their own science..."



So now that they allow hunters to take spikes and bucks with unbranched antlers, everything is good right? Everyone should be happy that there is a loophole to the 13" rule and kids, first timers and old timers alike can be included.

The thing is, not everyone cares about antler size as much as some of you guys. I like a big deer and had a crack with my bow at what to me was a giant a month or so ago. Having said that my wife took a year old 6 point and we are thrilled with the meat and the experience. The buck and the doe she shot are true trophies in our family, freezer has meat, and we spent some fantastic time together! We are hunting in Oklahoma so not as stringent on antler size (antler must be 3" to be considered a point) and much more liberal with limit especially does. We have seen plenty of big deer without any ARs. Govt. many times just needs to get out of the way, not everyone cares about trophy class deer.

I think you are missing the point as to why they had to introduce AR's in the first place.

As I understand it, the decision to allow hunters to harvest spikes and lesser bucks was based on the TPWD's own findings that bucks that don't have two forked antlers by their second year will very likely lag their peers for life. For that reason, they encourage hunters to harvest these inferior bucks early or BEFORE they catch the protection of the 13-inch rule where they can continue to spread their genetics when better bucks satisfy the rule and become open game. In this manner, the chance of high-grading (taking too high a percentage of wide-racked bucks) is reduced by removing these lesser bucks earlier rather than later. An approach that protects every buck for three years practically ensures high-grading, especially when it protects deer with poor genetics, as was the case with Mississippi's four-point rule.

I see a change that would allow hunters to take three-year or older deer with racks that don't satisfy the requirement as further tweaking of the current system. Or more simply put, it would allow hunters to take those bucks that have slipped through the cracks.

It's a rarity for a mature buck to be less than 13". My guess is less than 10% if not less than 5%. The system works great IMO to keep folks from killing every thing with horns, which is exactly what happens when all restrictions are gone because Johnny Redneck wants some meat and is too dumb to kill an old doe or too lazy to wait for a mature buck.

not every cares about just meat either. Everyone shooting trophy bucks and does still have meat. Not the other way around for the guys shooting young bucks willy nilly.

Yes, because the average texas deer hunter can accurately age deer on the hoof.


Also, the spike study was done at the Kerr WMA, is a high fenced property and its findings go against every other subsequent study....Including the study done by the University of Mississippi.


What retort do you have next?

Do you love deer antlers so much that you feel every Texas hunter should be forced to let every buck walk that's less than three years old?

You don't have to answer.

Beg to differ on how genetics work. Getting rid of bad traits takes time, but it can be done. Many years ago I had Ibex that looked like the top picture. I saw the writing on the wall that said Ibex with knots on their horns are bringing more money. So I got rid of those that looked like the first picture and started using males that looked the way I wanted them to. I would keep the male for about 3 years and then get another that I liked. Each year I would sell the oldest females. If I had 10 female kids I would sell the like amount of old females. I still do this and now my Ibex look like the bottom picture. The same could be done with deer. Keep the bucks you like the look of for a certain time. Each year kill the oldest does. It will work but very few will commit themselves to doing it.

He knows all this don’t waste your time.

He knows the Kerr study only showed that a STX 180” breeder buck line bred to his offspring is going to be bigger than a hill country spike line bred to the spikes off spring.

They never cross bred the does for a reason.

He tried to use Mississippi study knowing good and well they didn’t end up increasing harvest age where as the TX AR spread did significantly increase harvest age. More you increase harvest age more nullified the theory of high grading becomes.

I'll give you the opportunity to answer the same question Bobo.

Do you love deer antlers so much that you feel every Texas hunter should be forced to let every buck walk that's less than three years old?

Good luck…. With that on average TX ranch/farm/ranchette with free range whitetail deer herds.


You are doing exclusive breeding. You control everything from Male and female traits, including line breeding with NO random dispersal coming or going. You are not doing that in a low fence ranch in TX where it’s basically a buck successfully breeding “A” doe a year, with “two” does being the exception. This matrix goes for all “breeding” age bucks… So that includes year old bucks. If you can’t influence dispersal good luck genetic swamping to get a prominent gene to be expressed.

I love hunting enough that I know an increase in age class in male part of the herd(except in bears) increases substantially of the herd, direct correlation to survivability and herd size increase. Why do you think the Hill Country doesnt have AR’s? They have to many deer!!

If you are only killing young deer because that’s all you have…. Enjoy it while it last because you are KILLING out your herd.

You are the problem with hunting today. You run your mouth in circles… one minute you are flapping anger @ QDMA practices(which are NOT trophy deer management practices, they are ecologically and habitat based principles) then lecturing on how we need to kill spikes etc. the whole goal of AR’s was Age class and herd increase. Unfortunately some people had to fight toget more doe tags and spike tags which is counter intuitive to the goal, unfortunately that appeasement isn’t the end all be all, but it’s definitely why NETX still has low herd numbers.

I love antlers so much I’ve killed three WT bucks in ten years(two would be considered mgt/cull by most) but shot 50 plus does. And I’ve shot zero WT deer in last two years, I love hunting, I don’t have to be trigger happy, to enjoy it. You just want to argue. You have basically told several biologists and wildlife managers they are clueless

Sig has valid reason not to like AR’s. The pressure there needs to change, herd is not growing. It needs to be limited to 1 AR buck 0 doe’s, period. But it won’t because people focus on current NOW not the future.


I personally care zero about what other people kill, I just do me, but don’t make an asinine argument for something that is counter productive in reality

I love mature bucks so much I don't see why there is ever a reason to kill a buck that is less than 3 years old. It has nothing to do with antler size (although they are a byproduct of age). I would be happy to see a 5 year old buck scoring 120" at a meat pole and unhappy to see a 2 year old buck scoring 120" hanging next to it.


I practice what I preach on the properties I have control over, I don't think it should be a mandated law but feel that personal ethics should take precedent. Its about personal greed.....hunter A spends time, money and resources to go hunting. He ultimately just wants to shoot something so instead of a doe or mature buck he blasts a sub-adult deer. Hunter B spends the same time, money and resources to go hunting, he wants to kill a mature buck but its much harder for him because of people like Hunter A. Hunter A is never affected at all, but Hunter B is, when both could be happy if he either shot a doe or waited for a mature buck. I grew up in 1 buck no doe counties so i remember what its like to be limited to one deer a year, but lets be honest your not living off one deer a year so you can't say your doing it for the meat

Thats what you and so many others fail to understand....its the "i gotta get mine, as long as its legal" crowd that cries foul over AR's, Cries foul over high fences, deer breeding etc. yet they were the root cause of most all of it

Very true, but if you could. Look what the outcome would be if AR's IMO are going the wrong way. They should try for a few years AR.s to be. Only male WT can be harvested that are either 13 inches or less and at least 6 points inside spread or do not have a branched antler.

I'll take that as a "yes". Everything else is besides the point.

Then you easily eliminate an age class of very young deer. You would end up killing the majority of 1.5 year bucks assuming you had the hunters numbers. Again AR’s originally were put into place to increase age structure.
Let’s put it a simpler way the king ranch did a cull study between I think two 7k pasture, with extensive culling they still couldn’t up the b/c average score of the control pasture top end deer.

Only way to change genetics is to swamp the genetics(think 1 buck breeding 15 does in a DMP pen) and deter dispersal. Very few low fence ranches actually have had the resources and the long term stomach to influence genetics.

All this is why AR started in low density counties looking to grow and protect young age classes why growing herd numbers. Not saying that the AR expansion was a good thing, or that it was warranted in every county that it’s currently in. Not even saying it was implemented correctly. I’m just stating the why.

Example -I think mule deer AR’s are dumb but I understand they want to increase the population, increase age classes while still offering Hunter opportunity.

If the original WT AR counties were ALL public land it would be easy, they would just do draw tags and cut the tags tremendously. With that said the best approach would be properties doing their own population surveys, and adjusting tag allocation to address their issues they are trying to solve while still maintaining a substantial herd. Welcome to the evolution of MLD properties and MLD partnerships. If you hate AR’s start looking to forum MLD Co-ops.

Everything in this world is cause and effect, and unfortunately w/ very short memories

That would be me. Easy to see 20-30 per day on our place, but zero decent bucks. End of December last year, I saw two great bucks, one totally massive.

Thats why imo the spike rule makes no sense....you expose an entire age class of deer to harvest when thats the one you need to protect. Again, the Kerr is the only study that promotes the harvest of spike antlered yearling bucks.


The Comanche ranch did a similar study and found that they could not influence the genetics thru culling on a low fence pasture.


In a high fence scenario with intense management....sure, you can enough to make a noticeable difference. But not in a free range situation we are dealing with in Texas

Well y’all know I’m not a biologist I’m just another internet expert. But I can’t resist it any longer and I’m all out of popcorn.

Antler point restrictions work a whole helluva lot better than no restrictions. You gotta give it time.

Using the 4 on one side rule is a really good start. Down the road, you can always change it to a minimum antler spread rule or use other rules in conjunction.

You have to start somewhere. One thing we know for sure is culling spikes does not work in the real world. Antler point restrictions or anything else you can do to grow bucks long enough to breed a couple seasons is always better than nothing.

And you can’t sit there and b!tch about what you are seeing on public ground. Most of the deer are on private ground. All the deer on public are almost all over hunted, what you’re looking at there is almost a moot point. Even in a state like Missouri with lots of public hunting access.

The NDA recently published results by the Southeast Deer Study Group which is suggesting 33% is "An estimate of the heritability of antler traits, which is similar to expressing the likelihood that a large-antlered buck will produce fawns that grow up to have large antlers also. In other words, it’s a weak relationship, therefore “culling” of bucks based on antler size isn’t likely to improve antler size of future bucks." For me I'll take this 33% "advantage". Frankly, that is a heckuva return and it's better than no "advantage". To me, it just means there is no quick fix, but 33% can compound over the ears.

I am trying to figure out how dog & cattle breeds were ever developed.

The essence of time. We forget the generations and decades of strict breedings it took. Now we have AI and DNA mapping

Agree with TxTro and Bobo. If STx was here he would jump in on killing spikes but he is used to intensively managed places. Killing off spikes in the general deer woods is all wrong, IMO. The Kerr study was about the only one that pointed to that and Bobo earlier mentioned its faults. The Comanche study blew holes in lots of ideas. I was told by a pretty good source that the main reason the spike killing was a part of the AR ruling was to throw a bone to the hunters to soften the blow of the ARs(Bobo has mentioned this in the past as well.)
edit. And Huds 33% article I have not read. Thats interesting and I need to think about it. Ill give Hud credit for "kind of" jumping on board on this one.

STX has done it to a successful degree but he also knows it takes a lonnnng time, if your don’t go the DMP route. Thus Why everyone goes DMP route. If you could completely cull out genetics with out gene swamping we wouldn’t have culls.

Regardless what one’s thinks about antlers since TX Dan is so infatuated with them, we are stewards of this earth and dominion over it, we owe it to our kids and grand grandkids to manage it on a sustainability model for future generations. You absolutely have the right to kill any deer that you will 100% utilize but if you have choice in what to utilize, pick the one that helps ensure a better long term outlook of a herd.

It just might be better to go with that option… then to think everyone gets a buck

Does are really good table fare!

Here's another way to look at the Spike rule. Let's say you don't want to take a doe because you have noticed a steep decline in deer numbers, (I'm in that position currently) but you still want to get some meat. You can take out a spike rather than a legal but not huge 3 year old 10 or 12 point. Taking the spike will have less effect on the future population, and will still allow those other two nice bucks to get some more age to them.

Absolutely, in fact that would have been the best way to do it over a 10-15 year period. Change it back to a one buck county, and make it be a spike/unbranded antler tag. And doe tags per survey…

It would have corrected herd dynamics and age class issues pretty quick. You could even do a property draw tag for a branched antler buck. Similar to how Utah does elk

You would never get it passed though

Sometimes I get a little worried from some on here that are self-proclaimed experts on all subjects. But I do enjoy the reading.

MEME was a joke BTW..

We hunt in an AR county, I'll shoot a spike for meat but only if its a 2yr old or older deer. No real reason that I apply to that other than a yearling simply doesn't yield enough meat to make it worth the effort and expense.With AR's our buck numbers across age ranges are exploding. Doe? Not so much. We saw a steady increase in both until a few years ago when TPWD changed the rules to allow doe during the first few weeks of rifle season. Sine then we keep getting more bucks every year, but the doe population seems to have plateaued.

So my suggestion to TPWD would be to take a closer look at the buck/doe ratio in our area and see if our experience is isolated or if it is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

I will say this on AR's though. I was not thrilled when they implemented them in Freestone county. Not because I didn't think something needed to be done. I just didn't like that we were already management minded on our place and their rules might inhibit us from taking a deer that we truly felt wouldn't damage the herd. But we are a smaller parcel among other smaller and larger parcels, and over the years I've seen the place go from the 70's when the "brown is down" mentality ruled, into the 90's when we actually started seeing more deer, better deer and got fully on board with management practices and habitat improvement, to now when I see enough deer to literally have a dozen or more a year named with that many or more filling out the ranks that constitute what I consider the herd in our immediate area. I have truly witnessed a complete turn-around in how things are done and the effect it has on the population. However, I do not feel the system in place at this time is perfect either. Every change they make in the rules will have an effect, and I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far on this most recent rule change.

Not discrediting what you see on your land, but I wouldn’t read too much into observed doe numbers in most cases. They are almost always under reported in my experience. If we followed camera surveys to a tee you would think we would have a 20:1 buck:doe ratio. Actual observations, probably a 5:1 buck:doe ratio. Helicopter, we see a 1:2 buck doe ratio and the increases in yearling bucks confirm that. Doe are almost always pressured out of feeding areas by bucks. If your buck population is increasing it’s likely because your doe population is as well, after all those bucks have to come from somewhere

I've definitely seen less does the last 2 years after they increased the doe season in the area where I hunt. Last time I stopped by the processor it looked like 2/3 of deer in the cooler were does. I know it's a small sample size, but I do think it is having an effect. Doe season used to only be for 5 days I think, and now it's a little over 2 weeks.

Best bet is to call neighbors and start a MLD co-op. More acreage you get under it the better it will be.

I like the basic principle of the Antler Restriction rules, need to find a way to adjust it so you can cull inferior mature bucks from the herd whose antlers are well between the ears.

Maybe take a pic of it, send to game warden and get a go or no go on it?

What do I know so here it goes. I think TPWS is like the Federal Government in a lot of ways. They launch a bunch of trial balloons. They get feedback from them. Guess who gives the most feedback. Not the actual folks that may know management but the couch potatoes that know squat and the ones that a change in regulations may line their pocketbooks.

Gonzales Co. Is basically a one buck county. Granted a second buck can be taken provided it is a spike. I don’t hunt for antlers as they are inedible. But, a spike is pretty small in body weight. During the pre-season we usually catch 10-12 different legal bucks on the cameras. And, we don’t want to shoot our 8 or so resident does.

So, in Gonzales County, I would like to see a two buck allotment.

I get what you're saying, but my observations aren't just cam pics. I spend 100's of hours a year in the field observing deer in the off-season. I spend many more hours in the field off-season than on. I'm observing changes in the herd make up year around. Sure, we have cam's setup too, that only helps inform my observations.

No doubt we are getting quite a few bucks displacing into our area annually, obvious when you start seeing 2yr and older deer regularly that you've never seen before. But there will always be a cause/effect. Allow hunters more opportunity to take doe and you'll have fewer doe. I am watching it play out on our place. It gets really interesting during the rut when almost every breeding age buck we have disappears completely and those of legal status hardly ever return. They are ranging out looking for doe and getting killed. I know bucks will displace out during the rut and others will displace in, seen it happen year after year, but lately we aren't seeing the bucks displacing in. Couple that with seeing fewer doe per bucks throughout the year and the evidence starts adding up.

I realize our sample area is limited, but the sample time isn't in my case.

Also, how much importance do we place on the age structure of the doe herd? If we're going to focus on the average age of bucks and claim it helps the herd to have their age increase, wouldn't it make sense to have more mature doe as well? Sure, young doe can breed too, but if all we care about is that they go into heat so they can lure more bucks in for us to see/shoot then I feel that's being a bit short-sighted. This is all being sold to us under the guise of benefiting the herd by improving the age structure, right? Why then, would we only worry about the portion of the herd that grows horns?

Taking every deer over 13” regardless of age has to effect an effect on future deer size.
Deer are like virtually same as livestock when it comes to genes and breeding. Anyone who raises livestock knows that you don’t use small inferior genes animals to breed you females. If you do you end up with small inferior livestock. Cattle, sheep, goats, pen raised deer. Doesn’t matter. AR rules might work on a large ranch along with age restrictions and light hunting. But can’t work in a broad sense. Most leases have to many hunter. A lot of small leases have a hunter for about every 50 acres. All of the hunters are paying good money to hunt and most of them are going to shoot every 13” deer they see.

In Freestone before the rule change we had to either take our doe during bow season when no permit was required or have a permit from TPWD for each doe during rifle season. And TPWD was likely stingy with those permits for a reason. We'd get a single permit from them maybe every three years for our place. So evidently they felt the doe population needed a fairly stringent element of protection, right? Then they go from that to a free-for-all for the first few weeks of rifle season? That was a major shift in policy, and a recipe for disaster when it comes to the doe population. This year has been kind of weird for east Texas in general when it comes to hunting season, so it's difficult to use it as any example. But the last couple of years the amount of shots we heard from other properties in our area increased significantly for those first few weeks, then tapered off accordingly once the doe season was over.

So either they were wrong for decades on past policy and corrected it with this rule change, or this rule change might have been a little too aggressive? The answer is probably somewhere in between the two. If the choice is between the two, I'd rather it go back to permits and archery only. Leave the AR's in place as they are since it really doesn't effect us significantly anyway.

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Also, how much importance do we place on the age structure of the doe herd? If we're going to focus on the average age of bucks and claim it helps the herd to have their age increase, wouldn't it make sense to have more mature doe as well?

Sure, young doe can breed too, but if all we care about is that they go into heat so they can lure more bucks in for us to see/shoot then I feel that's being a bit short-sighted. This is all being sold to us under the guise of benefiting the herd by improving the age structure, right? Why then, would we only worry about the portion of the herd that grows horns?
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Valid point, just very hard to implement in the wild. MANY an unseasoned hunter is unable to discern the age of Doe Deer unless it is this years fawn standing right next to its Mature Mother.

Certainly, a Mature Doe is more apt to be a better survivor than a younger one, thus more likely to be bred and continue to contribute to the herd. Of course, its the larger, older Does that most folks will select to shoot.

On most properties the Doe to Buck ratio is out of whack (more Doe deer than Bucks) so perhaps in the end it makes little difference. There is no way to know which Does best contribute to the genetics of the herd without selective breeding, so we can only look at the Bucks as a whole and note any patterns.

Genetic diversity being what it is.....the average property can only try to keep the Buck to Doe ratio at a reasonable rate, the carrying capacity of the land managed and the overall age structure reasonably in balance.

The thing is, I don't think anyone, anywhere, is taking every 13" deer. That's pure, unsupported conjecture.
1. You cannot, through a system of hunting seasons, kill every deer, 13" or not. That's like saying in a certain herd that every 4.5 year-old deer is killed each year. Just not the case.
2. Cameras help, and a 13" buck just ain't that great of a deer. Many hunters understand they have numerous better/larger/older deer running around their property. Many 13+" bucks are passed-on each year.
3. You don't hear about many leases here on THF where 13" makes a legal deer. If I had a nickel for every time I heard, "Needs another year..."

Under current conditions, I do not believe that the "we're genetically selecting for narrow bucks" holds much water. YMMV.

Huh, landowners and deer lessors have a definite different definition on what is going on the ground, especially in East Texas. When lessors are paying, they want something for their money and bragging rights in the work place.

There are 85,000 members on here total. Last year 600,000 people hunted deer in Texas.
I don’t think people who post on here make much of a dent. There were 400,000 buck deer killed.
I am friends with a guy that processes around 4000 deer in Stephen’s county which has AR rules. He says the MAJORItY of bucks brought in are young 13 to 15 inch deer.just barely over the AR limit. Most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see.
As for THF I think there are a lot of management minded hunters on here but really not that many post on here about age of deer. Maybe a couple hundred members.

For the naysayers, and to add on to what BOBO and tt85 are saying, I believe the Mississippi study showed that the age structure improved (or at least the age structure of harvested deer improved), and they suggested but did not prove the 4-point restriction reduced (drastically in some cases) average B&C scores on public land.







The same study concluded that average B&C scores remained constant or improved on private land (5-17"+ difference!), thus illustrating the harvest practices on private land are normally not commensurate with management practices on public land.



Texas is mostly private land.

Finally, the same study suggested that in addition to a possible slot limit, a minimum inside spread of 13" was an appreciable way to combat "high grading." Maybe Texas was paying attention after all?

So every deer at the processor pre-AR where even younger deer less the <13….

Why are there any genetic 13”+ ability deer left after decades of that….


Don’t compare low fence deer management to centuries of livestock selective breeding and management , they aren’t even comparable. Show me one low buck that’s bred 100’s of does in his lifetime. DMP excluded. A buck that makes it to 6 years old might of bred 5-7 does in his lifetime, add in the fact he dispersed as yearling probably from 2 miles to more than 23 miles away, and then factor in that his buck fawns will do the same and disperse as far or further from their birth place…..

You realize many of these over 13” deer that are killed every year are 4+ years old right? That means they have been spreading their over 13” genes for Atleast 2-3 yrs

Valid point, just very hard to implement in the wild. MANY an unseasoned hunter is unable to discern the age of Doe Deer unless it is this years fawn standing right next to its Mature Mother.

Certainly, a Mature Doe is more apt to be a better survivor than a younger one, thus more likely to be bred and continue to contribute to the herd. Of course, its the larger, older Does that most folks will select to shoot. [/quote]

Exactly, that speaks directly to my view on the change in doe harvest rules in our county. Not only do we have hunters taking more doe than ever (in my lifetime), they are going to shoot the larger more mature doe if given the chance. TPWD needs to rethink this strategy if they seek to remain consistent with their stated reasoning for AR's.

A rifle or shotgun deer season in Grayson county.

Exactly. Pre AR these deer were getting shot at 1.5 because “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see”. Now they are at least making another one or two years.

This sums it up perfectly.

Not true at all, paying for a lease means you have the time to select the deer you are going to shoot. “most hunters paying for a lease are going to shoot the first legal buck they see” is the most BS statement I have seen in a while. More small bucks were shot on public land than on leases. Makes far more sense to shoot a doe than a small buck if you can take your time hunting.

100%

Wether it’s public, private, over zealous farmer, road hunters or urban sprawl the effect is what’s being worked on via the AR correction

We have to stop pointing fingers and just focus on education in support of a sustainability model that supports generations to come.

If we don’t stop this, we get the TXdan nonsense trolling trying to play both sides against the middle with the everyone should get a buck, with means you are entitled to what ever you want, of course until there are none left, then we will blame trophy hunters…

Ecological is fun to learn. More to hunting then just pulling the trigger

Public land, day hunting, and quided hunts for a certain number of days with pay on the lower end I would think would account for most of the smaller bucks being shot with the idea of, '' I paid my money, I deserve a deer." When a person pays for a yearly lease there is some of this going on, but the hunter has more time to hunt and has more invested in the hunt.

"the first legal buck they see” is the most BS statement I have seen in a while, tell that to an eleven year old.

Ill add on to what Bobo said about how few offspring an individual buck actually contributes to the local herd. You also have to factor in the low number of fawns just how few actually survive their first year of life. This year for instance, some are reporting almost no fawn crop at all, so almost zero animals will be put back into the herd from last years breeding. All bucks, Trophy/cull/young/old, could of had a condom on and the same genetics would of been passed on.

On our lease where we made sure water and corn was available through the summer the deer are plentiful, still many does with two fawns and the deer we have shot are nice and fat. There are also more than a few deer that are over 5 years old. In the case of our lease antler restrictions are moot because we did our own management.

How did I know this would devolve into an AR thread...

This. We need more kids to get hooked on deer hunting. Getting a 12 year old up early and bundled up to sit in the cold just to watch basket bucks walk by that he's not allowed to shoot is a good way to sour a kid on hunting.

And for those wanting to mandate "re-education" for those who disagree with their opinions on antler restrictions, maybe we can borrow old "re-education" camps in Siberia comrades?

my 10 yr old son has had to pass 30+ bucks in the last 2 yrs. Some bc they aren’t wide enough and many bc they are too young. This is on Ft Hood public land. He still loves every minute of it. He understands it’s not just about shooting a buck but being patient and waiting for the right buck. Parents and grandparents wanting their kids to be able to shoot anything just bc they are kids is a great way to teach a kid to feel entitled. Make them work for it, teach them patience and that the reward for both will be much greater. If they don’t enjoy just being in the woods with their pops then maybe hunting isn’t their thing. With that said I’m not really against letting youth kill anything but I believe the reward for teaching them patience will go a long way. Maybe meet in the middle and only allow youth to kill any buck on youth weekend and late youth season.

Your points are valid for your kids, my kids and my grandkids. And probably most of the families of the dedicated hunters and outdoorsmen on this forum. But we always took kids hunting(and still do) belonging to extended family members and kids of single moms from church. By the time we took them shooting a couple of times and took them hunting once or twice, that might be all the hunting exposure they get in a season. Most of these kids only got to hunt with us and had never hunted before as it just wasn't affordable to their families or there was no man around to take them. I never noticed any sense of "entitlement" from kids who killed a deer or didn't get to kill a deer.

Make STONEWALL COUNTY a two buck County. Bucks in my area outnumber does three to one.

Makes the most sense of anything I have read so far.

To me, it's about teaching the kid to make a choice... weighing options. Teaching them that, yes, you can shoot the first thing that walks out, but you'll likely lose the opportunity for a better deer later. Opportunity costs is a hard lesson for a kid to learn.

My daughter took it to heart and on her own accord, passed on some really nice deer over the course of two hunting seasons before finally pulling the trigger at 11 years old. She wanted a buck closer to what dad had on the wall and was willing to wait for it. I was super proud of her voluntary patience.

I'm not sure forced patience teaches a very good lesson, if any lesson at all. I guess it's different for every family, but I agree with no ARs for the youth.

I know it's federal and TPWD has no say but I wish you could shoot doves over bait with a bow.

When i was a kid, we hunted in 1 buck only counties, no does allowed. We didn't cry because we couldn't kill one of the many does we would see every hunt. I would have loved to kill a doe but it wasn't legal so we didn't. Didn't slow me down from hunting one bit.


above all, its about what's best for the herd, and AR's have been proven to promote a more balanced herd thru restricting harvest in counties where they are needed.