I have been looking at reviews on thermal scopes for about a month. It seems there are a lot of websites that have contradicting info compared to what I have read on forums from the guys that actually use them in the field. I started off looking at ATN because almost every top 10 thermal scopes list has them listed and one went as far to say it was by far the best under $5000. Luckily I kept looking and found this site from another forum I am on. I have read a lot here and found a list of the best in each price range but it was a few years old. I have watched a lot of videos with the Super Yoter and am very interested but wanted to know if it is the best option in the $3500-5000 price range? Does it get a lot better if you go over the $5000 mark? It will be going on an AR 6.5 Grendel.

If this is your first thermal scope then you’ll most likely be amazed by any of the following :

Bering Super Hogster
Iray bolt tl35
Iray bravo
Bering Super Yoter

No need to spend the full 5k to be amazed , as ALL have very good images and function well.

All have a fair used market price too so in theory you could buy a 384 system to learn the use in your environment and the resale the scope and “upgrade” later ….

Again, if it’s your first thermal you’ll be impressed with a 384 and save $ 1 - 1.5k

Check the classified section on this board there are some good deals from time to time

After watching the videos of the Super Yoter I am headed that direction. Was just wondering if there was anything better in that price range. Buy once cry once. lol

No there is nothing better than the Super Yoter - R for $ 4700

Enjoy your new scope

You need to really have a good idea on what type of hunting you plan on doing..

In short, the farther away you want to be able to shoot (and thus the requirement for absolute positive ID) the more you need to spend.


For close range pig hunting under a hundred yards you don't "NEED" amazing imagery..
And you don't really want a lot of magnification either

And you don't need to spend as much

Public Service Announcement from someone who's been in the e-commerce business for close to 10 years and who's seen the shadier side of online sales.

Here is a dirty little secret about "Top 10" type lists on the web. They are all fake and I'm not talking about just thermal scopes. It doesn't matter if it's lawn mowers or underwear. They are made by people who don't know a single thing about the items but create some fake blog or website and go get a list of items on Amazon, Walmart or other websites that they have affiliate links to. Affiliate links mean if you click that link and buy the product they get a commission. These people have never seen the lawn mowers, thermal scopes or laptop computers they are putting in the lists. It's just a way to get top search results using a bunch of keywords and then get a few sales when people click through and buy one of the items.

Now, back to your question at hand, Pig Popper's list is really good. I agree with his assessment. The one thing I'd really like to emphasize is, you need to buy a scope with the correct magnification for what you're doing and the Super Yoter is 3x base mag, as are all the other scopes in PP's list. 3x is just a very common magnification right now. However, depending on your shooting distances, you might be better off with less magnification like the new AGM Rattler 2x TS35-640, Ratter 2.5x TS50-640, Pulsar Thermion 2 XP50 2x etc. All those are in your price range as well.

There is a lot of get into, more than I can type but all these scopes are really good and I've used all of them that are on the table right now and I believe if you get the one with the right magnification, you won't go wrong. A quick note, you asked if there was anything better for $5,000, setting magnification aside, the answer is yes, the Thermion 2 XP50 has a slightly better image quality than the Super Yoter, It also has a better image quality than several scopes that are $6,000+. But again, if 3x works better than 2x for your hunting conditions, then the Super Yoter could still be a lot better deal for you.

Feel free to give me a call if you'd like to talk more about all these scopes, I'm glad to offer my 2 cents. My hands are tired of typing.haha Just ask for Jason if you call.

Jason, I knew there had to be something to the reviews that had ATN in the top 5 and listening to the end users saying the opposite. Thank you for the insight.
I will definitely give you a call before I buy anything. You were recommended from another forum i am on.

Thank you sir. I saw one of those "Top 10 Thermal Scopes for 2021" lists the other day and it literally had 5 scopes on it that were discontinued, 2 of which have been off the market for at least 3 years. I just shook my head.lol

Jason

Newbie to this forum, but not to shooting and optics... I suggest you save enough dough to get a really great thermal. I really like Trijicon and N-Vision. Both of these have 12-micron pixel pitch, which makes a HUGE difference over the standard 17-micron pitch. Neither has all the frills of some cheaper optics like multiple color palettes, video recording, so on and so forth. I would gladly trade all that for top quality resolution and features more related to making a great shot. Check them out.

Trijicon hasn’t done anything new in a while

CaptDave, while buying 'really great thermals' is a fine idea (I own and hunt with Trijicons, both 60mm), it is sort of like buying a Snap-On tools. How many folks need Snap-On?. Lots of the newer optics like the Super Yoter mentioned above, are offering 12 micron pitch at a much lower price than the Trijicons or N-Vision. Both higher end offers are quality scopes, no doubt, but image quality is actually superior on some of the newer and cheaper scope over a wider range of environmental situations. Trijicon and N-Vision are solid companies with solid offerings, but they just don't seem to be a cutting edge as some of the other companies.

What I am basically saying is that for most hunters that typically don't hunt at distances beyond 100 yards and even less rarely beyond 200 yards, who aren't hunting 100 nights a year, there are some excellent lower cost thermals out there that will work just fine and actually be more cost effective than Trijicon or N-Vision. Put another way, a Trijicon or N-Vision thermal may not actually be a good fit for many users. Why buy Snap-On tools when your most rigorous jobs are for "some assembly required" Christmas gifts?



As an owner of OG Trijicons (made by IR Defense before being taken over by Trijicon) and hunting with folks who have the newer versions of what I use, Trijicon has sort of stagnated for while. The first major upgrade done was to change the battery compartment on one model and that was years after taking over. They have now cosmetically and ergonomically upgraded their units with some external features and firmware (including reticle upgrades that have been badly needed since Pig Popper and I reviewed the first IR Defense 320 resolution IR Hunters many years ago). With that said, I don't believe the image specs have changed over the years, maybe only the firmware running it.

DNS, would you please name some names?
What I am basically saying is that for most hunters that typically don't hunt at distances beyond 100 yards and even less rarely beyond 200 yards, who aren't hunting 100 nights a year, there are some excellent lower cost thermals out there that will work just fine and actually be more cost effective than Trijicon or N-Vision. Put another way, a Trijicon or N-Vision thermal may not actually be a good fit for many users. Why buy Snap-On tools when your most rigorous jobs are for "some assembly required" Christmas gifts?[i][/i]

I fall into that category you called out, and would really like to hear your recommendations, and I would ask the same from Jason at Outdoors Legacy. Those of us who are newbies to the thermal game find it overwhelming as we wander through the different sites trying to select something between a Snap-On and one of the myriad other choices, some of which should be declared "some assembly required" or not be in the market at all.

I just PM'd you ...

I have had a trijicon and I currently own an Nvision haloX50 and a couple other high end 640 thermals and a Bering Hogster R35 which was my first personal purchased thermal weapon sight. I still use the Hogster as a hand held scanner for the magnification.

My HaloX50 hasn't suffered a single occurrence of any of the common internet complaints people have on them.

With that said I will say this: Outside of recording video I get generally PO'd with myself about every couple months for buying all these high dollar optics when the Hogster R 35 is as good as it is. It is Especially upsetting when the conditions turn bad and the target picture image detail of a coyote at 200yds in it is so similar to a 3.5x optic that cost over 3 times as much.

There isn't a single performance complaint that I've got with that $9k optic but I came home from the field after using it and the Hogster in cold humid weather and built a sale ad to get rid of it and replace it with a 640 hand held scanner and 2 more Iray core 384 scopes of different base magnifications for different hunt types.

I have kept my HaloX, at least for now, but I wouldn't let the BAE Core cult convince you they are in their own world performance wise. That is especially true if you hunt thick areas more often than open fields.

I believe that DNS will agree with me here that you need to get a scope that suits your budget and your needs. Sticking with the tool analogy for a minute, you can take a nut off a bolt with a crescent wrench, pliers, vice-grips, channel locks or a socket. In truth, you can probably get the nut off the bolt with any of those tools but some might require more effort. But no one can deny that in 99% of the common scenarios the socket was the best tool for the job. Thermal scopes can be the same.

The mistake so many people make is saying "this scope is in my budget, I'll buy it" or "10 guys on Facebook for THF said the XYZ scope is their favorite, so it's really popular, I'm going to buy it."

My point is, I can't name scopes without knowing more about the situation. For instance, the Thermion XM30 3.5x is $2,399 and the Bering Hogster R 25 1.4x is $2,195 and they couldn't be any more different in what their strong points are.

In reality I approach every single recommendation to a potential customer as a puzzle that I need to solve. First off....what is your realistic budget? (that determines if I even ask many of the following questions because if the budget is $2,200 then there are only a couple options and I jump straight to them.) But the questions I need answered are.....How far are you shooting on average, what is a close range shot, what is a long range shot, what is the terrain like, how far can you see, what animals are you primarily hunting, do you need a LRF, how cold does it get, bolt gun or AR platform, how large of a caliber are you shooting, CR123 batteries or rechargeable proprietary batteries, internal batteries or no internal batteries, and the list goes on but you get the point. Now to be fair, I try not to ask 50 questions like that, I get people to tell me the answers without them knowing I'm asking buy just talking about their hunting situation and setup.

From there I can determine what scopes to recommend.

Again, between the AGM Rattlers, Bering Hogsters and Pulsar Thermion XM30, there are 5 great scopes for a lot of different situations all under $2,600. When you move into the $3,000-$4,000 category the line up gets huge and the options can be over whelming.

To get a good recommendation, find someone (and it doesn't have to be us at Outdoor Legacy, there are other very good dealers and I'll be glad to name a few if you need me to.lol) who use and hunt with all these scopes and call them, tell them what you do, let them hold your and so to speak and walk you down the road of narrowing the list down to find a short list of 1-3 scopes that really suit your budget and needs and then whittle it down from there.

I hope that makes a little sense.

Jason

Thanks for the come-back, Jason. What you're saying makes a lot of sense. My needs are very simple because of my hunting environment: Here it is:
Budget is less than $2500
My average shooting range is 100 yards
Close range shot is 25 yards
Max range shot is 125 yards
I hunt from blinds, at fixed, known diistances, 95% of the time, so I have clear shooting lanes about 35 yards wide
The other 5% of the time I am sneaking up on hogs using my stock tanks for wallowing, but since I have hunted the place for over 20 years, I pretty much have the distances sorted out
Hogs, coons, foxes and bobcats are the most frequent game targets
Rarely gets much below 25 degrees here in Mason, and if it does, this old boy ain't going out in it to hunt!
Primarily home built AR's; one or two bolt guns
Calibers: .223, 224 Valk, 6PPC, .243 Win, 300Ham'r, 7.69X39, 30-06 and .308

I have ran a lot of expensive thermals and am very happy with the Burris BTS35 I am testing. Pleasantly surprised to say the least.

I can easily positively ID deer at 400 yards and it has a wide field of view at close range being 1.7 native magnification. The digital magnification isn't very good but most of them aren't. I know it is a Chinese made unit as is a lot of the less expensive options out there. If money is no object, get Nvision.

Jason,
Good points. Good reasoning.
I will be calling you shortly.

And when you get recommendations, I would stress that you keep in mind that there are some very strong an inherent biases in getting them. These biases are often unrecognized by those giving the recommendation and often unrecognized or overlooked by the person getting the recommendation. Over the years, I have seen folks make some of the most confounding suggestions to others for buying thermal, often using bizarre logic.

1. Dealers: Dealers want to sell you something. That is their job and how they stay in business. There is a very high likelihood that if they don't try to upsell you something, that they will offer you a best fit option based on whatever they have in stock or can get. Very few will tell you that you would be better off with a product they don't carry or can't currently get. If getting insights from a dealer, find one that carries the greatest variety.

2. Newer, less experienced owners: Most thermal users have owned 1 thermal scope and more often than not, whatever it is is something that they would recommend other people buy. Quite frequently, it is the only scope they have much experience with and there is a strong chance they bought it through the mail.

Remember that all brands certainly have their detractors, but one brand is disliked by more (often former) owners than any other, even by 1 time owners.

Less experienced owners will often give their nod for what they have purchased for several reasons.
A. Purchase Decision Ego. Few want to admit they spent thousands of dollars on something that really wasn't a good purchase decision. You see pattern with all sorts of products from electronics to cars, etc. Thermals are no exception. Admitting serious mistake makes them look bad.
B. Ignorance - They don't know what they don't know: Whatever thermal they purchased literally changed their lives when it came to hunting. They get so doggone pleased with how their life changed that they sometimes/often fail to realize that their purchase may not have been the best choice.
C. If a less expensive model, some will often use the argument that it "kills" just as good as more expensive models. "I can kill as many hogs with my Pulsar RQX30V and somebody can with a Trijicon." Maybe they can, but they are looking at a decidedly more blobular image and will have to work harder to make identifications before pulling the trigger.

3. Snobs and long term owners: Snobs are the worst. You see a lot of brand wars . This also gets back to ego. It isn't that they want to admit to buying a bad scope or one that doesn't fit their needs because they didn't, but they don't want to admit that there might be something better that they could have purchased and didn't. Again, nobody wants to look like an idiot for making a less than optimal purchase.

Many long term owners end up with a strong sense of brand loyalty. The classic example you see (or used to see) is with cars. People used to proudly boast that they are a Chevy or Ford family and would never consider buying outside of the brand. Some long term thermal owners get that way. In part because the brand has worked and in part because it is easier to stick with what you known.

4. All Owners: Regardless of what they have purchased, all owners have to adapt to the capabilities of the optic. Most don't realize this. How another owner hunts may not be how you hunt and the thermal optic suggested by another may simply not be a good fit for how you hunt. In other words, their thermal may be perfect for them and how they have adapted, but may not be perfect for you unless you.

5. Folks that offer you an 'unbiased opinion': When somebody offers you their unbiased opinion, just remember it is chock full biases. Ain't no such thing as an unbiased opinion. We all have our likes and dislikes, differences in values and perspectives.

From all this I will conclude that you can be led astray by people with nothing but the best of intentions...all because of their biases.

Note that all makes and models of thermals seem to have very good and very bad features. I have hunted with a lot of thermals and every single one of them had some absolutely bone-headed features. Some have been firmware. Some have been hardware. Some will be an issue EVERY TIME you use the optic. Some will only be an issue at certain times. When you get recommendations from others about their thermals, ask them about anything, ANYTHING that bothers them or that they don't like. Remember that good features will not be a bother to you, but things you don't like will bother you for the entire time that you own the optic. Some detractions are ones you may be willing to live with or adapt to, forever. Some may be deal breakers.

Well said

same with guns, optics and God forbid "caliber wars". Case in point, had a friend who only shot long range and didn't hunt. He was emphatic that the 6.8 SPC was a useless round because it used low BC bullets, no matter how hard to explain that shooting pigs inside of 300 yards and most of the time a hundred or less the BC thing was completely irrelevant and I had a lot of dead pigs and deer that would agree with me. But because he was so concerned with long range and high BC bullets he just refused to accept that "it worked for the intended use"

Thanks! Got it! Read it! Digesting it! Really appreciate it!!

New here…first post. The original post caught my eye because I also use the 6.5 Grendel. I purchased the AGN Rattler TS-25-256 last spring and could not be more pleased, especially with its price under $2,000. My budget was no more than $2000 so my options were limited, especially since I did not want to go with ATN. My buddy bought a Pulsar Thermion XM 30 about the same time, and even he says the Rattler is “better”. There is no internal sound, so videos lack that, but other than that, it is great. I can use an external charger with USB if I need extra battery, but I would say the batteries (CR 123) last about 2.5 hunts (maybe 9-10 hrs?) I would say recognition is good up to 200 yards and it shines in closer ranges. Last hogs I killed I was about 35 yards away, pitch black. No problems. If you want to save a few bucks, the TS-25 and the Rattler TS-35-384 ($2700) are great.

I have also heard great things about the Hogster and Super Hogster but I have not used them personally.

I'm glad I to heard about this sight through another I frequent. I have been wanting a thermal which would be my first also, haven't even used night vision. Videos sometimes are very confusing when you like what they say about the scope and then you go to another that doesn't even mention the one you just saw in comparison. I'm in NNY and coyotes would be my target and would like 300yds but with me only using a few times a year I don't want to spend what it would cost to do that. I'm thinking the Pulsar xm30 would be a good starting choice.