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Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537504 06/18/19 09:00 PM
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You boys still trying to get this hammered out? roflmao

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537507 06/18/19 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Choctaw
You boys still trying to get this hammered out? roflmao

popcorn

Re: Hornography [Re: ErnestTBass] #7537516 06/18/19 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ErnestTBass
It's a tough issue. I appreciate that this debate has stayed so much more civil, despite the opening salvo/article being so divisive.

I think lots of high fence places are done well, generally preserving wildness and improving the deer herd.

That said, I think we have to be incredibly wary (maybe even prophylactic) against anything that smells like a canned hunt, even to the wholly uneducated urbanite. The future of our hobby/passion may depend upon it. If you think we can't get regulated out of existence, you'd better think again. It could happen to us.

Personally, I'd rather shoot "small" deer than do things that risk taking too much of the wildness out of hunting. What's "too much"? Both, that's a tough question. I don't mind planting or supplemental feeding. Personally, I won't build a high fence around any of my places. I understand that caps what I can do. I'll manage habitat and wildlife as best as I can in a low fence environment. And we'll probably shoot smaller deer, but we'll still shoot some good mature deer, and we will have a lot of fun doing it. But that's just me.


ErnestTBass-- very very well said. Ive posted more than once on here on this issue but you nailed it very well. I also want to reemphasize that considering the sensitivity of this issue I feel most everyone has remained very civil.


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Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537518 06/18/19 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Choctaw
You boys still trying to get this hammered out? roflmao



its easier to hammer something if its inside a high fence.....

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537519 06/18/19 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Choctaw
You boys still trying to get this hammered out? roflmao


Choctaw-thanks for starting this thread. But, you know good and well this issue will NEVER be hammered out. However, I think the discussion has brought out a lot of good ideas and opinions. Whichever side someones on it is certainly an important topic.


Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Hornography [Re: freerange] #7537524 06/18/19 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by ErnestTBass
It's a tough issue. I appreciate that this debate has stayed so much more civil, despite the opening salvo/article being so divisive.

I think lots of high fence places are done well, generally preserving wildness and improving the deer herd.

That said, I think we have to be incredibly wary (maybe even prophylactic) against anything that smells like a canned hunt, even to the wholly uneducated urbanite. The future of our hobby/passion may depend upon it. If you think we can't get regulated out of existence, you'd better think again. It could happen to us.

Personally, I'd rather shoot "small" deer than do things that risk taking too much of the wildness out of hunting. What's "too much"? Both, that's a tough question. I don't mind planting or supplemental feeding. Personally, I won't build a high fence around any of my places. I understand that caps what I can do. I'll manage habitat and wildlife as best as I can in a low fence environment. And we'll probably shoot smaller deer, but we'll still shoot some good mature deer, and we will have a lot of fun doing it. But that's just me.


ErnestTBass-- very very well said. Ive posted more than once on here on this issue but you nailed it very well. I also want to reemphasize that considering the sensitivity of this issue I feel most everyone has remained very civil.


I agree that we should remain civil in these discussions. It's hard to do when people that have hunted HF ranches are insulted before the discussion gets started. When you paint HF hunting with a broad brush and state that these are nothing more than canned hunts you don't start off the conversation on sound footing.

I disagree with the opinion that as long as we don't give the impression of canned hunts the anti's will leave us alone........they will only be satisfied with NO HUNTING. PERIOD. In their minds it's the same end result: an animal gets killed. And you know what, that point can't be argued away, can it?


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Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537526 06/18/19 09:31 PM
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The anti's really don't care how we hunt. They care that we do hunt. As hunters we really shouldn't let topics such as this much fought-over issue divide us. As Marc said, they will never leave us alone.

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537537 06/18/19 09:37 PM
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Itís not the antis, itís the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They donít mind hunting but donít like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(Thatís only the 437th time Iíve typed that. Oh well....)


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7537544 06/18/19 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Itís not the antis, itís the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They donít mind hunting but donít like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(Thatís only the 437th time Iíve typed that. Oh well....)

So you speak for the non-hunters? Yeah right.........I know plenty of non-hunters; my wife, one of my daughters, my assistant at work, many neighbors and friends on my daughters' soccer team........never had one mention a word about canned hunts. Never noticed any non-hunting organizations that are actively promoting legislation or fund raising to stop canned hunts..........please post up facts INSTEAD of your opinion..........to back your claim.

Last edited by Pitchfork Predator; 06/18/19 09:52 PM.

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Re: Hornography [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #7537552 06/18/19 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Itís not the antis, itís the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They donít mind hunting but donít like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(Thatís only the 437th time Iíve typed that. Oh well....)

So you speak for the non-hunters? Yeah right.........


No, I listen and read.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #7537557 06/18/19 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Itís not the antis, itís the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They donít mind hunting but donít like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(Thatís only the 437th time Iíve typed that. Oh well....)

So you speak for the non-hunters? Yeah right.........I know plenty of non-hunters; my wife, one of my daughters, my assistant at work, many neighbors and friends on my daughters' soccer team........never had one mention a word about canned hunts. Never noticed any non-hunting organizations that are actively promoting legislation or fund raising to stop canned hunts..........please post up facts INSTEAD of your opinion..........to back your claim.


Iíve posted them a bunch. You donít care. There are lots of studies and research on the subjects. Google is your friend. But, again, you donít care. Youíve had the same hostility about this subject as youíve always had.

P.S. Non-hunters donít have organizations. Thatís nonsensical. They can, however, become anti-hunters and join their organizations.

See votes banning different types of hunting in various states as further evidence.

Also, many states ban HFs statewide. Thatís evidence that folks in those states donít like them.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7537560 06/18/19 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Itís not the antis, itís the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They donít mind hunting but donít like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(Thatís only the 437th time Iíve typed that. Oh well....)

So you speak for the non-hunters? Yeah right.........I know plenty of non-hunters; my wife, one of my daughters, my assistant at work, many neighbors and friends on my daughters' soccer team........never had one mention a word about canned hunts. Never noticed any non-hunting organizations that are actively promoting legislation or fund raising to stop canned hunts..........please post up facts INSTEAD of your opinion..........to back your claim.


Iíve posted them a bunch. You donít care. There are lots of studies and research on the subjects. Google is your friend. But, again, you donít care. Youíve had the same hostility about this subject as youíve always had.

P.S. Non-hunters donít have organizations. Thatís nonsensical. They can, however, become anti-hunters and join their organizations.

See votes banning different types of hunting in various states as evidence.

Strike 1


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Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537567 06/18/19 10:12 PM
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Well, if the fact that canned hunting is banned in about half the states is not evidence to you that many donít like it, I suppose nothing will be PP.

Obviously this issue is emotional to you for some reason. Your reasoning skills deteriorate and you canít discuss it in a civil manner. All you do is see red whenever it comes up.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7537576 06/18/19 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Well, if the fact that canned hunting is banned in about half the states is not evidence to you that many donít like it, I suppose nothing will be PP.

Obviously this issue is emotional to you for some reason. Your reasoning skills deteriorate and you canít discuss it in a civil manner. All you do is see red whenever it comes up.

"Many" is a very broad definition isn't it? I'm not emotional at all about it, just logical. You haven't posted any evidence of "non-hunters" being involved or behind hunting practices being banned in certain states. I'm well aware of the "anti-hunters" or "self righteous hunters" that push their hunting agenda, that's not what I asked for........and you know it.

I do take offense as you know to people that don't mind their own business. I think logically, not emotionally. Logically the end result is the same: a dead animal. If I kill it legally it's none of your business how I choose to do it. It's simple logic, not emotion. I also believe in respecting the choices other men make when it comes to logical choices that end up with the same result.


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Re: Hornography [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #7537581 06/18/19 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Well, if the fact that canned hunting is banned in about half the states is not evidence to you that many donít like it, I suppose nothing will be PP.

Obviously this issue is emotional to you for some reason. Your reasoning skills deteriorate and you canít discuss it in a civil manner. All you do is see red whenever it comes up.

"Many" is a very broad definition isn't it? I'm not emotional at all about it, just logical. You haven't posted any evidence of "non-hunters" being involved or behind hunting practices being banned in certain states. I'm well aware of the "anti-hunters" or "self righteous hunters" that push their hunting agenda, that's not what I asked for........and you know it.

I do take offense as you know to people that don't mind their own business. I think logically, not emotionally. Logically the end result is the same: a dead animal. If I kill it legally it's none of your business how I choose to do it. It's simple logic, not emotion. I also believe in respecting the choices other men make when it comes to logical choices that end up with the same result.

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537583 06/18/19 10:34 PM
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PP it divides hunters (much less non hunters) - more than half of the folks on this hunting site abhor it.

Think about what that tells you re: those that donít hunt in the first place. The practice being banned in half the country shows how frowned upon it is by many. So much so they outlawed it. Itís not like opposing canned hunting is some new or novel concept. By either hunters or non-hunters. Geez.

You always cite ďlogicĒ and ask for ďevidenceĒ - yet rarely employ either in your responses to this subject.


Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.


Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537586 06/18/19 10:38 PM
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For those on this thread that don't know me, I have hunted very few HF hunts. Mainly friends who HF their places for exotics to hunt, they really don't care much about managing their white tail. Many ranches in Texas HF for this primary reason, not growing freakish horned white tails. The majority of my hunting I've done on very large low fenced properties. When I get involved in these discussions I'm defending the principles I live my life by. I'm a strong supporter of private property rights as well.


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Re: Hornography [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7537588 06/18/19 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
PP it divides hunters (much less non hunters) - more than half of the folks on this hunting site abhor it.

Think about what that tells you re: those that donít hunt in the first place. The practice being banned in half the country shows how frowned upon it is by many. So much so they outlawed it. Itís not like opposing canned hunting is some new or novel concept. By either hunters or non-hunters. Geez.

You always cite ďlogicĒ and ask for ďevidenceĒ - yet rarely employ either in your responses to this subject.

That's your opinion NP..........you don't have the final say on who's being logical or emotional as much as you would like to believe you do......I could say the same of your posts on this subject which IMO are all based on "emotion" and the way you feel about it. Period....as you like to end.......


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Re: Hornography [Re: Nogalus Prairie] #7537664 06/19/19 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Itís not the antis, itís the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They donít mind hunting but donít like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(Thatís only the 437th time Iíve typed that. Oh well....)


Sorry, I donít hang on your every word and you have no argument with me. We basically agree except I will never tell anyone how they should hunt as long as itís legal.

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7537746 06/19/19 03:48 AM
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"The faux frontier world of manufactured deer and canned hunting in Texas".

I never got past that first sentence. I can't say what I think about this article on this forum.


-Bryan

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Re: Hornography [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #7538114 06/19/19 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Itís not the antis, itís the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They donít mind hunting but donít like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).


I generally agree with this. Go see what happened with fox hunting in England. Peta alone can't beat you. You lose when it becomes about something more - e.g. class warfare or you piss off the soccer moms. Canned hunting is the sort of thing that could do that.

I do not believe that most HF hunting is canned. Quite the contrary. I think that a very, very small % of it is canned. Most of it is just as difficult as low fence hunting, though you may have better animals around because the population has been managed. But I also think that it is very difficult for HF operations to convince the proverbial soccer mom, the random urbanite or suburbanite. Those people have no frame of reference for this. And any sort of PR campaign would be losing before it started.
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by ErnestTBass
It's a tough issue. I appreciate that this debate has stayed so much more civil, despite the opening salvo/article being so divisive.

I think lots of high fence places are done well, generally preserving wildness and improving the deer herd.

That said, I think we have to be incredibly wary (maybe even prophylactic) against anything that smells like a canned hunt, even to the wholly uneducated urbanite. The future of our hobby/passion may depend upon it. If you think we can't get regulated out of existence, you'd better think again. It could happen to us.

Personally, I'd rather shoot "small" deer than do things that risk taking too much of the wildness out of hunting. What's "too much"? Both, that's a tough question. I don't mind planting or supplemental feeding. Personally, I won't build a high fence around any of my places. I understand that caps what I can do. I'll manage habitat and wildlife as best as I can in a low fence environment. And we'll probably shoot smaller deer, but we'll still shoot some good mature deer, and we will have a lot of fun doing it. But that's just me.


ErnestTBass-- very very well said. Ive posted more than once on here on this issue but you nailed it very well. I also want to reemphasize that considering the sensitivity of this issue I feel most everyone has remained very civil.


I agree that we should remain civil in these discussions. It's hard to do when people that have hunted HF ranches are insulted before the discussion gets started. When you paint HF hunting with a broad brush and state that these are nothing more than canned hunts you don't start off the conversation on sound footing.

I disagree with the opinion that as long as we don't give the impression of canned hunts the anti's will leave us alone........they will only be satisfied with NO HUNTING. PERIOD. In their minds it's the same end result: an animal gets killed. And you know what, that point can't be argued away, can it?


I'm not worried about the antis. They won't ever decide this issue. There aren't enough of them. What we cannot do is give them enough ammo to turn the proverbial soccer moms against us en masse. Canned hunting (or the wide perception thereof) is the kind of thing that could be used for that purpose.

Re: Hornography [Re: Choctaw] #7538147 06/19/19 08:24 PM
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I'm not a fan of it Ernest, and I agree it's not the perception we want from the general non-hunting public. However, I never read or hear chatter about this from this group........where I read and hear the chatter is from hunters themselves or reporters with an agenda like this one. IMO the best thing we can do as hunters is support what's legal and stop any further government regulation or intrusion.


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Re: Hornography [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #7538188 06/19/19 09:06 PM
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Ive elaborated my 2 cents earlier in this thread but ill address the recent comments about the antis and the non hunters being an issue with our hunting future. I agree with Pitch that I do not hear a lot of negative chatter from non hunters. I think that stands to reason since they are somewhat neutral or just ignorant or merely unmindful. However, if they are given reason to care then I hope we(as hunters) have our act together enough to get them on our side. I personally have five kids and an ex wife that are "non hunters" but not anti hunters. They don't talk bad about hunting but they don't talk good about it. They all vote so if push ever comes to shove and they come to me for advice on voting I hope there is still some "wild" in wildlife so I can have a chance at swaying them.


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pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.

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Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.



Same has been said about feeders...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about deer drives...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about shooting out of a vehicle safari style...we should get rid of them
Same has been said about hunting deer with dogs...we did get rid of them
Same has been said about shooting at long distances...we should stop that too
Bow hunters argue against gun hunters
Gun hunters argue against bow hunters
Traditional hunters think all the others are cheating

And the list goes on....

I have been on many HF ranches. I don't hunt HF places but can appreciate them for what they are and for the trophies that people take off them. I am a firm believer in property rights and minding my own business. Biggest issue I see with most these arguments is that if someone disagrees with someone else's method, they don't think the other person should do it.

I do appreciate the civil manner in which this thread has gone. Much better than in the past cheers


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