Texas Hunting Forum

Hornography

Posted By: Choctaw

Hornography - 06/04/19 01:37 PM

An in-depth article about the trophy hunting culture.

Hornography
Posted By: SenkoSamurai

Re: Hornography - 06/04/19 02:16 PM

Interesting take on "wildlife" compared to "alternate livestock". Thanks for posting!
Posted By: ETexas Hunter

Re: Hornography - 06/04/19 02:57 PM

Thanks for posting!
Posted By: tlk

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 12:06 AM

Wow! What an article - seems all logical to me as to the progression of Texas deer hunting. Unfortunately I think the guy nailed it
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 01:45 AM

This is a smear campaign put out by TWA.

while not entirely untrue.....there is a lot of...well, lets say "opinions and assumptions" in this article.


due to my career field, I get to visit far more ranch properties than the average Joe hunter, and while places like the ones portrayed in the article certainly do exist, they represent a small percentage of commercial hunting operations or even high fenced ranches in general.

So many points we can touch on, but one of the most erroneous mentioned is the dollar amounts thrown around on these deer. Its actually cheaper to shoot a stocker buck that is 170" than it is to shoot a pasture raised buck of the same measurements. A lot of ranches put these out in the pasture for paid clients of oil field companies, true, but its often to turn an income while preserving their pasture raised bucks till maturity. Still, the $12k-$30k number in most instances is greatly exaggerated. Most deer that get shot that are stockers are well under $12k and most are $3500-$7500. There isn't a line out the door of people wanting to buy $30,000 deer to shoot.


A lot of breeding operations are used to buy and sell to ranches looking to enhance their deer herds, not just to raise deer to get shot that spring. Deer raised in pens on the ranch are released to enhance their genetics in the pasture. Do stocker bucks get shot? yes, but this is a small number of deer released onto ranches compared to the overall numbers.


We can cover the whole gamut of deer raising, high fences, etc....but this was a heavily biased piece, so one sided that I would be ashamed to have wrote it
Posted By: Texas buckeye

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 01:53 AM

Seems a little anti-Texas in general with his “faux-frontier” part...while I agree with the 60,000 lifted trucks that never see dirt, guess what, that’s everywhere these days except the coasts. And the drive for “showmanship” on the coast just comes in different ways other than a lifted truck. It’s still there. This society is a “show me” society and the ample examples of immediate gratification amongst its citizens are overbearingly abundant anywhere anyone wants to look.
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 02:04 AM

parts are a bit over the top. also some good points that we should all pay attention to. but, i've been thinking/saying for years that deer hunting heading the direction that it is is it's own enemy. think of the amount of fuel that anti hunters can get from it easily, not to mention the fact that some hunters themselves are against it
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
parts are a bit over the top. also some good points that we should all pay attention to. but, i've been thinking/saying for years that deer hunting heading the direction that it is is it's own enemy. think of the amount of fuel that anti hunters can get from it easily, not to mention the fact that some hunters themselves are against it



what irks me is some people out there will read this and form an opinion on the subject that is based on someone else's opinion, not in any sort of fact.


The hunting community is extremely divisive of its own ranks and this is a textbook example of one of the main subjects.
Posted By: SmallTownHunter

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 02:15 AM

Sad but true! Anybody can go shoot a white horn freak nowadays, just open your checkbook.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 02:37 AM

Another point I was pondering today on my drive to the jobsite.....


its human nature to make things bigger, better, to go after the biggest & best, not the smallest or the average.

We admire certain cars for their speed and luxury, not their efficiency. Mansions grace the covers of magazines, not Tract homes or studio apartments. Teenagers adorn their walls with posters of women that more resemble wonder women or Jessica rabbit, not Olive Oil. How boring would Hemingways book have been if Santiago had caught and lost to sharks a wahoo or dorado instead of a grander Marlin?


This is human nature. The quest for bigger and better isn't exclusive to the hunting world. The author quotes a time in the 60's and 70's when he wanted to join the ranks of the hunting world and people were happy with a mediocre buck. Well, in the 60's and 70's half the state had no huntable populations so of course any deer was a good deer. That isn't the case today. Way back in the same time period a 5 lb native bass was a giant, now its a nice fish but nothing to write home about thanks to florida genetics and stocking programs. People are going to want to make more money, buy better cars, have more things, travel more places, kill bigger deer, etc. Some will do these things ethically, some will achieve them unethically. That's the real root issue here, it boils down to ethics.


Hunters have got to come to the realization that things are not and will not be the same as they were in grandpappys day, in most cases they are much, much better. As with anything there are some things that are sour but the same could be said of common practices back then ( hunting deer with dogs comes to mind, as most hunters would be appalled at the practice today ). The inter fighting that is going on is appalling.


Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 02:44 AM

Hit the nail on the head. Points out even many breeders are sick about what they have wrought. It’s not hunting, it’s slaughter for dollars. Sad.

I do believe the tide is turning against it though and the house of cards is beginning to fall. Lots of articles like this and folks are steadily turning away from the HF canned hunt model. The market is reflecting it.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Hit the nail on the head. Points out even many breeders are sick about what they have wrought. It’s not hunting, it’s slaughter for dollars. Sad.

I do believe the tide is turning against it though and the house of cards is beginning to fall. Lots of articles like this and folks are steadily turning away from the HF canned hunt model. The market is reflecting it.




But the subject property they are talking about is such a minute % of ranches in Texas, yet they get 90% of the press
Posted By: freerange

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 03:20 AM

Its past my bedtime so I will have to rest up and reply to this tomorrow, hopefully. In the meantime im curious about Texastrophy85 comment about the article being a "smear champaign by TWA". Maybe I need to reread it but wasn't it a writer out of California writing for a journal out of God knows where? It doesn't appear to come from Texas at all much less a Texas organization. Greg Simons, a staunch TWA advocate, was interviewed and as far as I can tell no other mention of TWA. All he did was answer a few direct questions from the interviewer and didn't offer that much opinion or any opinion from TWA. TexasTrophy im not against you at all and you seem well informed and offered lots of good opinions so with all due respect im just asking you to enlighten me about the smear campaign.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by freerange
Its past my bedtime so I will have to rest up and reply to this tomorrow, hopefully. In the meantime im curious about Texastrophy85 comment about the article being a "smear champaign by TWA". Maybe I need to reread it but wasn't it a writer out of California writing for a journal out of God knows where? It doesn't appear to come from Texas at all much less a Texas organization. Greg Simons, a staunch TWA advocate, was interviewed and as far as I can tell no other mention of TWA. All he did was answer a few direct questions from the interviewer and didn't offer that much opinion or any opinion from TWA. TexasTrophy im not against you at all and you seem well informed and offered lots of good opinions so with all due respect im just asking you to enlighten me about the smear campaign.


The TDA and the TWA have been at odds for some time now. To people in the know about what’s going on, the fact that they interviewed and quoted Simmons and referred to other only as the “ranch manager” is a thinly veiled attempt at hiding the side the author was on. I can personally attest that you cannot just “throw up a high fence” and start getting $12k-$30k for a deer.

I was a member of TWA and side with their line of thinking majority of the time. But their witch hunt that all deer breeders are bad and they are the cause of and are spreading CWD is pure B.S imo. The article was as stated before, severely biased and offered no representation of ethical and legitimate high fence ranches and breeding operations, only the minority put and take places. It’s like saying that every lake in Texas that receives fish stockings are the equivalent of a catfish farm or kid fish trout pond.

My opinion is, If a person wants to breed deer to be sold and shot on his ranch, so be it. Ethically it’s not what I would do or be a part of but that’s a ethics issue between the hunters and the landowners participating, not a property rights issue as lot of factions are trying to make it. If a person has a ranch in an area with poor genetics, he high fences it for his own use and eradicates the native herd and brings in deer from a breeder, that’s his business. Again, it’s a personal choice.


My comments are not pro or anti high fence or pro or anti deer breeding. My comments stem from a heavily biased article posted here. Just like when people go to the polls and vote for a candidate, a large portion are basing their judgment on mis-information and are not fact based. I’m simply stating that people need real facts, not opinion pieces. This is something I would read straight out of huffington post. Next article to be written is that trophy hunting is Trumps fault




Posted By: dogcatcher

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 04:03 AM

popcorn
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 11:51 AM

I didn’t read the article as biased either. It’s actually a pretty straightforward look at the state of things right now. Deer breeding and pen hunting doesn’t have the cachet it used to and is not looked upon very favorably by most these days. Folks are starting to open their eyes and look beyond huge racks as an accomplishment unto themselves. Even the “hunters” can only shoot so many bigguns on demand before it’s not fun any more.
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 12:22 PM

txtrophy, i've had the same opinion on deer hunting and where it was headed from when all this started. what you stated about ego driven people is true, but they proved the point themselves. When it all started pen "stocker" or "shooter" bucks were worth a lot more than they are today. How many domesticated, pen raised, whatever you want to call it deer does one have to shoot before it isn't exciting anymore? To those on the outside "hunters" might seem like an united group of people, but it is actually very divisive. which can be detrimental going forward when hunting and gun ownership rights become more threatened.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 12:32 PM

Yes everyone wants to talk about “division”, but deer breeding and canned hunting pose an existential threat to hunting as a whole. Why? Because it’s really not hunting, but being is lumped in as hunting. Most states police it by simply not allowing it. I used to think this had to be done on a national level, but it appears that the disappearing market is going to do the job without that being necessary.

People are fast becoming “woke”, as the young people say.
Posted By: colt45-90

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 12:59 PM

confused2
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Yes everyone wants to talk about “division”, but deer breeding and canned hunting pose an existential threat to hunting as a whole. Why? Because it’s really not hunting, but being is lumped in as hunting. Most states police it by simply not allowing it. I used to think this had to be done on a national level, but it appears that the disappearing market is going to do the job without that being necessary.

People are fast becoming “woke”, as the young people say.



I hearby dub you, " Nog the Awoken"

you had to go and use that word didn't you...… I just don't like It when some leftist hippie throws shade at a group of people without giving them a chance to clap back.


Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 01:49 PM

Lol I’m not even sure I know what it means, other than finally realizing something. smile

I don’t think it would apply to me though, because I’ve never been “not woke” when it comes to deer breeding and pen hunting.
Posted By: freerange

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by freerange
Its past my bedtime so I will have to rest up and reply to this tomorrow, hopefully. In the meantime im curious about Texastrophy85 comment about the article being a "smear champaign by TWA". Maybe I need to reread it but wasn't it a writer out of California writing for a journal out of God knows where? It doesn't appear to come from Texas at all much less a Texas organization. Greg Simons, a staunch TWA advocate, was interviewed and as far as I can tell no other mention of TWA. All he did was answer a few direct questions from the interviewer and didn't offer that much opinion or any opinion from TWA. TexasTrophy im not against you at all and you seem well informed and offered lots of good opinions so with all due respect im just asking you to enlighten me about the smear campaign.


The TDA and the TWA have been at odds for some time now. To people in the know about what’s going on, the fact that they interviewed and quoted Simmons and referred to other only as the “ranch manager” is a thinly veiled attempt at hiding the side the author was on. I can personally attest that you cannot just “throw up a high fence” and start getting $12k-$30k for a deer.

I was a member of TWA and side with their line of thinking majority of the time. But their witch hunt that all deer breeders are bad and they are the cause of and are spreading CWD is pure B.S imo. The article was as stated before, severely biased and offered no representation of ethical and legitimate high fence ranches and breeding operations, only the minority put and take places. It’s like saying that every lake in Texas that receives fish stockings are the equivalent of a catfish farm or kid fish trout pond.

My opinion is, If a person wants to breed deer to be sold and shot on his ranch, so be it. Ethically it’s not what I would do or be a part of but that’s a ethics issue between the hunters and the landowners participating, not a property rights issue as lot of factions are trying to make it. If a person has a ranch in an area with poor genetics, he high fences it for his own use and eradicates the native herd and brings in deer from a breeder, that’s his business. Again, it’s a personal choice.


My comments are not pro or anti high fence or pro or anti deer breeding. My comments stem from a heavily biased article posted here. Just like when people go to the polls and vote for a candidate, a large portion are basing their judgment on mis-information and are not fact based. I’m simply stating that people need real facts, not opinion pieces. This is something I would read straight out of huffington post. Next article to be written is that trophy hunting is Trumps fault





I will give a thorough reply when I get time but before this goes too far(and likely will) I want to say Txtrophy has mostly very good opinions. I also side with Nogalais on most parts. More to come...
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 02:43 PM

I’m not disagreeing with Nog. I agree that the market ( and general desire for high fenced hunts ) has waned. I used to have no issues selling a high fenced place now the market has turned to low fenced place with people deliberately passing on high fenced ranches for a number of reasons. Deer that used to cost $10k can now be shot for $3500 because the market is saturated. And I agree that breeding deer in pens is a slippery slope ethically and good intentions can easily be perverted into a quasi science experiment.

My beef with the article posted was it paints all breeding operations and high fence ranches with the same brush and that just isn’t so. I’ve been to ranches that were truly canned hunting places. Not for me personally. But that represents maybe the 1% of high fenced ranches. Then they threw the CWD jab in there which again imo is a truck load of steamy B.S.


Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 02:46 PM

But I think we can all agree that canned hunts for breeder pen deer would be a lot more exciting if done at long range with savage and tikka 6.5 creedmoors
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 03:35 PM

The winds of change are even apparent on here. 2 years ago this thread would have already been 12 pages long with replies from folks defending the breeders and “hunters”.

I doubt anyone would defend a Savage though. smile
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by txtrophy85
But I think we can all agree that canned hunts for breeder pen deer would be a lot more exciting if done at long range with savage and tikka 6.5 creedmoors



why not just shoot a paper plate or balloon? does shooting a captive deer at long range make it any more gratifying?
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 04:14 PM

deer breeders can call it a saturated market, everyone else is calling it declining demand. a lot of hunters of game of all kinds will agree that high fence "hunting" is a black eye for hunting as a whole. hunters divide themselves into categories, but antis and non hunters group them together. Not a good thing long or short term for the well being of hunting opportunity.
Posted By: Choctaw

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
But I think we can all agree that canned hunts for breeder pen deer would be a lot more exciting if done at long range with savage and tikka 6.5 creedmoors



why not just shoot a paper plate or balloon? does shooting a captive deer at long range make it any more gratifying?


I think he was being factitious.
Posted By: SmallTownHunter

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 04:42 PM

Not to long ago on here if you dared say a negative thing about high fences you got one of two responses.

"It's no different than low fence"

"Your just jealous because you can't afford it"

I'm glad those days are over and people are starting to see it for what it really is.
Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
Not to long ago on here if you dared say a negative thing about high fences you got one of two responses.

"It's no different than low fence"

"Your just jealous because you can't afford it"

I'm glad those days are over and people are starting to see it for what it really is.


There's a difference between hunting wild deer on 10,000 acres of HF land and sitting on a corn feeder in a 20 acre pen to shoot a science experiment that was just unloaded out of a trailer.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
deer breeders can call it a saturated market, everyone else is calling it declining demand. a lot of hunters of game of all kinds will agree that high fence "hunting" is a black eye for hunting as a whole. hunters divide themselves into categories, but antis and non hunters group them together. Not a good thing long or short term for the well being of hunting opportunity.



No, the market is saturated. I can get pen raised deer for about 1/2 the price I could 10 years ago because the supply is there. In any south texas county there are 5-25 people with pens that have surplus to sell.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
Not to long ago on here if you dared say a negative thing about high fences you got one of two responses.

"It's no different than low fence"

"Your just jealous because you can't afford it"

I'm glad those days are over and people are starting to see it for what it really is.


There's a difference between hunting wild deer on 10,000 acres of HF land and sitting on a corn feeder in a 20 acre pen to shoot a science experiment that was just unloaded out of a trailer.




Yes, there is a huge difference. I have been to places that didn't have a deer on it until September when they took an order and brought in a load of pen raised bucks to be shot in October. Far cry from shooting a deer on the Hindes ranch or the Shiner that is 100% native genetics.



Comparing one to the other is like comparing the moon landing to riding a moped
Posted By: SmallTownHunter

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
Not to long ago on here if you dared say a negative thing about high fences you got one of two responses.

"It's no different than low fence"

"Your just jealous because you can't afford it"

I'm glad those days are over and people are starting to see it for what it really is.


There's a difference between hunting wild deer on 10,000 acres of HF land and sitting on a corn feeder in a 20 acre pen to shoot a science experiment that was just unloaded out of a trailer.


No doubt there's a difference but the vast majority are not 10,000 acres. There are 3 different high fence ranches within 3 miles of my house, none of them are close to that big. Not sure what the average size HF place is but I bet it's nowhere close to 10k.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
Originally Posted by QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
Not to long ago on here if you dared say a negative thing about high fences you got one of two responses.

"It's no different than low fence"

"Your just jealous because you can't afford it"

I'm glad those days are over and people are starting to see it for what it really is.


There's a difference between hunting wild deer on 10,000 acres of HF land and sitting on a corn feeder in a 20 acre pen to shoot a science experiment that was just unloaded out of a trailer.


No doubt there's a difference but the vast majority are not 10,000 acres. There are 3 different high fence ranches within 3 miles of my house, none of them are close to that big. Not sure what the average size HF place is but I bet it's nowhere close to 10k.


That’s correct. The majority of places that are HF are also manipulating the animals and/or habitat in ways that produce game that is neither natural nor wild. It’s the reason for the HF in the first place. Folks can say otherwise all they want and refer to 10,000 acre places all day, but that’s not the general reality of why the fences go up. Exceptions don’t change the rule.
Posted By: freerange

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 05:46 PM

Even though there has been some slight disagreements so far I find it interesting that no deer breeders have chimed in. I wish I could make my point with few words like tlk when he said “unfortunately I think he nailed it”. Woodduckhunter also summed up my feeling pretty well. I also tend to side with Nogalus on most of his points as well as most others.
Txtrophy has been the main contributor on this one so ill address that. I agree with most everything he says. Im familiar with TWAs stance of deer breeding but don’t see this article coming from them. It is a smear tactic from the author. I agree its biased and not all correct facts and unfairly paints hunting with a broad brush. I don’t think it was his intention to write an overall account of hunting. He was likely repulsed by what he found and wanted anyone that would read it to know about it. As far the CWD issue im not ignorant but I may be uninformed. TXtro please enlighten me on why deer being confined in tight quarters is not a huge reason for CWD.
PERSONALLY I have hunted a large high fence ranch many years ago and i don’t feel there is inherently anything wrong with them. Everyone is talking about ethics and that is the main issue imo. My ethics tells me that deer should be hunted in a fair chase environment. Personal ethics will determine what fair chase is. My ethics tells me that at some point a HF becomes too small. How small is too small is once again up to personal ethics. “Canned hunts” and “put and take” personally disgust me but that’s just me personally. Your own ethics will determine how you feel about them and everyone has rights to feel as they do. A little side note I will offer as an example I noticed a package hunt advertised that said no lodging or meals provided but implied a very high success rate expected. Maybe im wrong but the look that gave me was that the hunt would be so easy and so quick that they weren’t even gonna offer a cup of coffee. Once again, someone mentioned “times are changing” and now days its all about “instant gratification” and “to each his own” and I AGREE with all that BUT its still a BAD LOOK, IMO.
My main takeaway is that it DOESN’T MATTER a lot if the article was biased or fact based or unfairly painted a picture of hunting. Whats important is that “we”(hunters as a whole) have an ugly underbelly and its being exposed and we don’t like it. Call a spade a spade. We have to admit theres an issue before we can or will deal with it. Yes, TxTro, we are talking about a VERY small % of hunters and ranches but the minority is hurting the future of the majority, IMO. I am a strong advocate of private property rights so its tough for me to tell a deer breeder what to do with his property. If hes pushing the limits on some of the key issues and hes also rich and just doing it for ego then I hate hes hurting the nonhunting publics view of hunters but hes got the right. For the deer breeders that are really doing it the “right way”(no I cant define that) and scratching and clawing to make a living and keep their family land in tact then I guess I have to just turn my head and hope it works out.
It will probably fall on deaf ears but my plead would be for anyone making a living off of what MANY would consider unethical hunting practices that you consider policing yourselves. No I cant define “unethical hunting practices” but it’s a big $^%##% elephant in the room and if you cant see it then there is no reasoning with you so I will likely not respond to any comments on that.
The very best news I have gotten out of this thread so far is that evidently the market is being affected by these issues. My next and last plead will be to the “hunters” that are paying for what MANY would consider unethical hunting. I may need armor on this one so let me clarify. I am NOT against High fence hunting and I am NOT against package hunts and I am for sure NOT against Trophy deer management or Trophy hunting. There is just a very gray line that most of us draw at different points and we all have the right to draw it where we want so please do so. Travis drew a line at the Alamo that helped assure us that right. DRAW IT, THEN LIVE WITH IT.
Posted By: Texas buckeye

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 06:12 PM

Reasonable post above, but isn't going to change the way anyone thinks. If someone has the money and wants something, what you think about it isn't going to stop or fulfill that want, so they will do what they want regardless. canned hunts are there because we have too much money as a society and some feel the need to spend it on big antlers in a quick manner. If the money isn't there, the hunts go away. O&G made this possible in TX. The reason the canned hunts are going down in price is because the number of "stupid" rich people is getting smaller due to the O&G prices. When prices go back up and more people have "stupid money" then the prices of canned hunts will go back up. Pure and simple, its an affluent first world problem of people having "stupid money".

What defines stupid money...that's for each to decide. For some its low 6 figures, for some its low 7, for some its high 5 figures. Every person determines what their stupid level is when they have it because in their mind they have so much it is worth blowing money on stupid stuff confused2
Posted By: fouzman

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
The majority of places that are HF are also manipulating the animals and/or habitat in ways that produce game that is neither natural nor wild.


What about low-fenced properties in the MLD III Program? They have to manipulate the habitat and do other things every year (to stay in compliance) to enhance their property for the wildlife. Most are also feeding protein year-round, culling inferior deer and trying to keep their sex ratios in check while trying to grow the biggest bucks they can. Is that natural and wild?

I completely agree with the canned pen shoots being unethical. I disagree with the broad brush you used to paint all high-fenced ranches in the same light.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
The majority of places that are HF are also manipulating the animals and/or habitat in ways that produce game that is neither natural nor wild.


What about low-fenced properties in the MLD III Program? They have to manipulate the habitat and do other things every year (to stay in compliance) to enhance their property for the wildlife. Most are also feeding protein year-round, culling inferior deer and trying to keep their sex ratios in check while trying to grow the biggest bucks they can. Is that natural and wild?

I completely agree with the canned pen shoots being unethical. I disagree with the broad brush you used to paint all high-fenced ranches in the same light.


I specifically did not paint them all in the same light.

Even though for me personally, once their movement is restricted by artificial means, I’m out. But I get many don’t feel the same as me.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
The majority of places that are HF are also manipulating the animals and/or habitat in ways that produce game that is neither natural nor wild.


What about low-fenced properties in the MLD III Program? They have to manipulate the habitat and do other things every year (to stay in compliance) to enhance their property for the wildlife. Most are also feeding protein year-round, culling inferior deer and trying to keep their sex ratios in check while trying to grow the biggest bucks they can. Is that natural and wild?

I completely agree with the canned pen shoots being unethical. I disagree with the broad brush you used to paint all high-fenced ranches in the same light.


I specifically did not paint them all in the same light.

Even though for me personally, once their movement is restricted by artificial means, I’m out. But I get many don’t feel the same as me.



I can respect your point of view completely if you don't want to hunt in a high fence. its a personal ETHICAL choice made by the hunter. No problem with it.

I will also agree that high fences give most places the means to artificially inflate the numbers of game that would be un sustainable on a low fence property, and is one of the benefits to a high fence. This can also be done on a low fence property thru supplemental feed. The hill country region is an area that has a population that is by and large above what TPWD recommends as a healthy carrying capacity, so it can happen naturally as well, but does have its consequences.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by freerange
Even though there has been some slight disagreements so far I find it interesting that no deer breeders have chimed in. I wish I could make my point with few words like tlk when he said “unfortunately I think he nailed it”. Woodduckhunter also summed up my feeling pretty well. I also tend to side with Nogalus on most of his points as well as most others.
Txtrophy has been the main contributor on this one so ill address that. I agree with most everything he says. Im familiar with TWAs stance of deer breeding but don’t see this article coming from them. It is a smear tactic from the author. I agree its biased and not all correct facts and unfairly paints hunting with a broad brush. I don’t think it was his intention to write an overall account of hunting. He was likely repulsed by what he found and wanted anyone that would read it to know about it. As far the CWD issue im not ignorant but I may be uninformed. TXtro please enlighten me on why deer being confined in tight quarters is not a huge reason for CWD.
PERSONALLY I have hunted a large high fence ranch many years ago and i don’t feel there is inherently anything wrong with them. Everyone is talking about ethics and that is the main issue imo. My ethics tells me that deer should be hunted in a fair chase environment. Personal ethics will determine what fair chase is. My ethics tells me that at some point a HF becomes too small. How small is too small is once again up to personal ethics. “Canned hunts” and “put and take” personally disgust me but that’s just me personally. Your own ethics will determine how you feel about them and everyone has rights to feel as they do. A little side note I will offer as an example I noticed a package hunt advertised that said no lodging or meals provided but implied a very high success rate expected. Maybe im wrong but the look that gave me was that the hunt would be so easy and so quick that they weren’t even gonna offer a cup of coffee. Once again, someone mentioned “times are changing” and now days its all about “instant gratification” and “to each his own” and I AGREE with all that BUT its still a BAD LOOK, IMO.
My main takeaway is that it DOESN’T MATTER a lot if the article was biased or fact based or unfairly painted a picture of hunting. Whats important is that “we”(hunters as a whole) have an ugly underbelly and its being exposed and we don’t like it. Call a spade a spade. We have to admit theres an issue before we can or will deal with it. Yes, TxTro, we are talking about a VERY small % of hunters and ranches but the minority is hurting the future of the majority, IMO. I am a strong advocate of private property rights so its tough for me to tell a deer breeder what to do with his property. If hes pushing the limits on some of the key issues and hes also rich and just doing it for ego then I hate hes hurting the nonhunting publics view of hunters but hes got the right. For the deer breeders that are really doing it the “right way”(no I cant define that) and scratching and clawing to make a living and keep their family land in tact then I guess I have to just turn my head and hope it works out.
It will probably fall on deaf ears but my plead would be for anyone making a living off of what MANY would consider unethical hunting practices that you consider policing yourselves. No I cant define “unethical hunting practices” but it’s a big $^%##% elephant in the room and if you cant see it then there is no reasoning with you so I will likely not respond to any comments on that.
The very best news I have gotten out of this thread so far is that evidently the market is being affected by these issues. My next and last plead will be to the “hunters” that are paying for what MANY would consider unethical hunting. I may need armor on this one so let me clarify. I am NOT against High fence hunting and I am NOT against package hunts and I am for sure NOT against Trophy deer management or Trophy hunting. There is just a very gray line that most of us draw at different points and we all have the right to draw it where we want so please do so. Travis drew a line at the Alamo that helped assure us that right. DRAW IT, THEN LIVE WITH IT.



I'll start with the CWD issue. The state has had CWD in the trans pecos and the panhandle, far away from most high fence operations. People are claiming that CWD in whitetail deer outside those areas is caused and spread by deer being raised in captivity. My arguments ( and there have been many on this ) is this:

The original deer they found on pattersons ranch did not die of CWD. It bludgeoned itself to death. it was a perfectly healthy 2 year old buck, that happened to be infected with CWD. Texas has approx. 600,000 deer hit the ground each year from hunters. If you tested every single one, do you think they would find a few with CWD? My guess is yes, you would. But my belief is deer are dying from a bullet, getting hit by a car, dying of pneumonia, blue tongue or EHD long before CWD kills them and we are not finding them, because we aren't testing for them on a widespread basis. hard to find something you don't test for. I believe its naturally occurring and has always been here, not something that is a creation of Deer Breeding.

CWD is spread thru mucus, so deer in a pen have a risk of contamination thru close feeding areas, such as feed troughs and protein feeders. Alas, they also have these same conditions in non-confined spaces eating at a protein feeder or trough. That's why northern states like Michigan have problems with it, deer herd up in the winter and are in close proximity to one another and the infection is spread while they are feeding....same holds true for elk and mule deer in the west.

I'm not saying CWD doesn't exist....I'm saying deer breeders didn't start it and they aren't spreading it.


Now for the rest of the response. I agree there is a line, somewhere, that falls between fair chase and not fair chase. Its of my opinion that there is little difference in shooting a deer under a feeder on a 1k acre low fence place vs. a 1k acre high fence place. They are being fed, coming to feed, etc. I also don't buy into to the theory they don't have a chance to escape. Unless they are tied to a tree or you are hunting in an open cattle pasture, I've yet to be on a ranch that a deer could not escape immediate danger by running much more than 100 yards. I also don't buy into the common theory that a high fence all of a sudden makes deer tame. I've been on countless low fence places that have little to no hunting pressure where the deer will look at you right off the side of the road and sometimes chase the vehicle like a cow coming to cubes. But yes, small, put and take places are not for me and I agree they give legitimate hunting a black eye. This goes not only for whitetail but also exotics like "trophy ram" hunts you see advertised. Animals imo deserve more respect than that.

Its a common misconception that deer become dumb and docile when a fence goes up. They don't know they are confined. as for stocker deer, I've known breeders who talk to their deer, hand feed them and yes, they act like livestock when they are released. I also know breeders that don't talk to their deer, hand feed them or treat them like pets that are wild like any other native born deer and act like that when they open the gates. So its subjective as to who is doing the raising.


I agree 100% though that at some point the high fenced acreage becomes "too restrictive" but that has a lot to do with the terrain of a place and is subjective. I also agree that hunting has become more ego driven that it needs to be ( not saying it doesnt' need to have some ego behind it, as I believe ego and adventure go hand in hand a lot of times ) and that put and take, roll them in and roll them out quick serve trophy hunts have become common place. But, animals are more plentiful high and low fence than they once were and it doesent' take a weeks time anymore to have a successful hunt. I have a small low fence ranch I can leave my house and go to right now, and with the utmost certainly I have hunting any place, have a 30+" axis on the ground by dusk. Reason being, they are left alone, have food, water and shelter and I know they will be there.


You won't every have a truly united front when it comes to hunting. Some factions will say high fences are bad while dropping deer over a spin feeder. Some people say feeding deer is unsporting while shooting deer over a wheat field. Some people think unless you hunt on public land you aren't a real hunter. its just like its a never ending argument.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 10:14 PM

It’s enclosing them that’s the game changer for me. A deer can travel over a 1000 acres in literally a matter of minutes if they are on the move. Seen it many times. They also relocate to different areas quite often during the year. Especially mature bucks. Have seen that many times also. Sharing trail cam photos with several “neighbors” we cover many square miles. It’s nothing for a buck to be on my neighbor’s place 4 miles away for weeks and then show up on my place and camp out for days or weeks. All kinds of movement happens over large areas. And this is wooded east TX where they don’t have to move a lot for food most years.

1000 acres (or even larger) HF may or may not be micro-manipulation from an immediate ‘escape’ or ‘tameness’ standpoint - but it’s darn sure macro-manipulation by keeping the deer confined in an area from which they cannot escape.

If you know a big buck is there, you can hunt every day knowing he is still there within the confines of the HF. That simply is not true in an unrestricted LF situation. He could be still on your place or he could be long gone.

That’s the game changer as far as hunting is concerned for me. That’s why many don’t consider it fair chase. It seems so obvious to me I don’t see why there’s even arguments about it, but apparently many either don’t see it or the big rack is more important to them than the means by which it is obtained.

I’m trying to get better about arguing about it, but I’m not going to ever be shy about stating my opinion and why I have it.
Posted By: fouzman

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 10:53 PM

NP, as a Texas deer hunter for the past 48 years, I certainly appreciate and respect your position on fair chase and high fences. Stay true to your convictions, brother up
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 10:58 PM

I guess this is for the trendy........the trend being people can't mind their own business. Landowners can stack chickens on top of each other in a enclosed barn and never let them leave until they go to the grocery store. Force feed livestock and not let it roam. Even pull unborn calves from the womb and sell them in the grocery store as a delicacy.......no one says a word about it, especially if they like cheap chicken and veal in their diet.

But then a landowner decides to have wild game as his live stock, and people can't mind their own business. A hunter decides to hunt the way of his choosing, and people can't mind their own business.

I'm a very blessed man........you stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours....cheers
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 11:43 PM

I will say this.

Most people I have talked to that have a negative opinion of deer breeders have never been to a breeding operation or only been to one or two.


Just like the anti’s crying about killing elephants and have never even seen one in the wild
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/05/19 11:55 PM

I have opinions about lots of things I have never personally experienced. That’s what reading, educating oneself and reasoning is for. And nowadays YouTube. (So does everyone - on a variety of subjects. Few have actually met the political candidates they vote for or against, for example.)

So unlike the antis and elephants analogy, I try to be accurately educated and not just propaganda-educated (which is not really educated at all).

That said, I have personal experience with least 3 breeder operations. It’s not really rocket science - just a livestock operation pretty much as described in the article. They are breeding for desired big antler traits just like cattlemen breed for desired beef, hardiness, etc. traits.

Is there something I’m missing?



Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 12:39 AM

i don't think anyone against high fences or deer breeding are also against private property rights. If someone wants to raise deer in small pens, release them into a little bigger pen, and someone wants to pay money to go "hunt" it, they can do that. But what this smaller % of people do not realize is that they draw a lot of un needed attention to themselves that inadvertently gets advertised. which will in the long term affects all hunters. once again, the ways of deer hunting are its own enemy.
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
I guess this is for the trendy........the trend being people can't mind their own business. Landowners can stack chickens on top of each other in a enclosed barn and never let them leave until they go to the grocery store. Force feed livestock and not let it roam. Even pull unborn calves from the womb and sell them in the grocery store as a delicacy.......no one says a word about it, especially if they like cheap chicken and veal in their diet.

But then a landowner decides to have wild game as his live stock, and people can't mind their own business. A hunter decides to hunt the way of his choosing, and people can't mind their own business.

I'm a very blessed man........you stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours....cheers



having wild game as your livestock??? animals are one or the other, not both
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
I have opinions about lots of things I have never personally experienced. That’s what reading, educating oneself and reasoning is for. And nowadays YouTube. (So does everyone - on a variety of subjects. Few have actually met the political candidates they vote for or against, for example.)

So unlike the antis and elephants analogy, I try to be accurately educated and not just propaganda-educated (which is not really educated at all).

That said, I have personal experience with least 3 breeder operations. It’s not really rocket science - just a livestock operation pretty much as described in the article. They are breeding for desired big antler traits just like cattlemen breed for desired beef, hardiness, etc. traits.

Is there something I’m missing?







no, but you have the knowledge to form an educated opinion. that's the difference
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 01:02 AM

On a side note, I see Botswana opened elephant hunting again. So there’s always hope. smile

I don’t hunt elephants but that will save a lot of their lives.
Posted By: fouzman

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
I guess this is for the trendy........the trend being people can't mind their own business. Landowners can stack chickens on top of each other in a enclosed barn and never let them leave until they go to the grocery store. Force feed livestock and not let it roam. Even pull unborn calves from the womb and sell them in the grocery store as a delicacy.......no one says a word about it, especially if they like cheap chicken and veal in their diet.

But then a landowner decides to have wild game as his live stock, and people can't mind their own business. A hunter decides to hunt the way of his choosing, and people can't mind their own business.

I'm a very blessed man........you stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours....cheers



"people can't mind their own business" Amen!
Posted By: Txduckman

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 06:52 AM

Glad I hunt a lease in North Texas... For now.... Neighbor did HF 500 acres. Never heard a shot in 6 years from there so far. Hope they jump out out. Of course only seen a few doe on other side the whole time. Nothing else.

Btw, every hunting property in Texas is a canned hunt. Stay away!!! Go to Oklahoma and Kansas. Huge bucks everywhere there.
Posted By: tlk

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 10:45 AM

not in relation to breeders but rather just HF ranches - one thing not mentioned is that many people HF their places because if they don't, their neighbors will kill every buck they see despite their age. Yes everyone has the "right" to shoot whichever deer they want but abusing that right is a big part of why HF ranches became popular.

The perfect scenario would be all the LF neighbors working together to let the herd mature but unfortunately that seldom happens.
Posted By: don k

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 11:58 AM




And some like myself have a HF because of what we raise. In my case Nubian Ibex. And even though it is considered a HF by most WT and Axis still sometimes jump in or out. Those excess animals need to be taken out yearly and hunting is the easiest way of accomplishing it. And I have never had a problem with finding folks to help.
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by tlk
not in relation to breeders but rather just HF ranches - one thing not mentioned is that many people HF their places because if they don't, their neighbors will kill every buck they see despite their age. Yes everyone has the "right" to shoot whichever deer they want but abusing that right is a big part of why HF ranches became popular.

The perfect scenario would be all the LF neighbors working together to let the herd mature but unfortunately that seldom happens.


that would be a perfect scenario for all the "legit" big buck hunters. there is still today a large number of hunters today believe it or that that just like to get together with friends and family a few weekends a year and hunt. not worry about this deer and that deer and the other, you shot my deer, i've been watching that deer for three years, I could've shot that deer last weekend, I wouldve let that one go, being around a meat hunting camp and not listening to all the hoopla is very enjoyable for some, so don't knock the neighbors who actually enjoy themselves while at the deer camp
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
Originally Posted by tlk
not in relation to breeders but rather just HF ranches - one thing not mentioned is that many people HF their places because if they don't, their neighbors will kill every buck they see despite their age. Yes everyone has the "right" to shoot whichever deer they want but abusing that right is a big part of why HF ranches became popular.

The perfect scenario would be all the LF neighbors working together to let the herd mature but unfortunately that seldom happens.


that would be a perfect scenario for all the "legit" big buck hunters. there is still today a large number of hunters today believe it or that that just like to get together with friends and family a few weekends a year and hunt. not worry about this deer and that deer and the other, you shot my deer, i've been watching that deer for three years, I could've shot that deer last weekend, I wouldve let that one go, being around a meat hunting camp and not listening to all the hoopla is very enjoyable for some, so don't knock the neighbors who actually enjoy themselves while at the deer camp


How about you practice what you preach.....hunt your way if it’s legal and leave your neighbors to do the same on their property as long as it’s legal, which includes building a high fence and stocking deer if they want to...
Posted By: tlk

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 11:31 PM

next post
Posted By: tlk

Re: Hornography - 06/06/19 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
Originally Posted by tlk
not in relation to breeders but rather just HF ranches - one thing not mentioned is that many people HF their places because if they don't, their neighbors will kill every buck they see despite their age. Yes everyone has the "right" to shoot whichever deer they want but abusing that right is a big part of why HF ranches became popular.

The perfect scenario would be all the LF neighbors working together to let the herd mature but unfortunately that seldom happens.


that would be a perfect scenario for all the "legit" big buck hunters. there is still today a large number of hunters today believe it or that that just like to get together with friends and family a few weekends a year and hunt. not worry about this deer and that deer and the other, you shot my deer, i've been watching that deer for three years, I could've shot that deer last weekend, I wouldve let that one go, being around a meat hunting camp and not listening to all the hoopla is very enjoyable for some, so don't knock the neighbors who actually enjoy themselves while at the deer camp



So I have no problem with everybody getting together for a few weekends and getting their meat. If that is truly the plan then shoot all the does you want. That way all the friends and family get to shoot and take some meat home with them. But WHY shoot 2 year old bucks for the meat??

If your statement is really true then shoot the heck out of the does and you have your meat - leave the 2 year old buck alone
Posted By: don k

Re: Hornography - 06/07/19 12:02 AM

It is really nobodies business what the neighbor does as long as it is legal. If they want to shoot fawns, yearlings, 2 year old Bucks or whatever. It is their property. Just because someone thinks they should be able to dictate what others do is BS. And like what was stated earlier that is probably why the majority of places are HF. That way you can run your business the way you want and you can sleep at night not having to worry about what others are doing.
Posted By: tlk

Re: Hornography - 06/07/19 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by don k
It is really nobodies business what the neighbor does as long as it is legal. If they want to shoot fawns, yearlings, 2 year old Bucks or whatever. It is their property. Just because someone thinks they should be able to dictate what others do is BS. And like what was stated earlier that is probably why the majority of places are HF. That way you can run your business the way you want and you can sleep at night not having to worry about what others are doing.


A agree - no one else's business who shoots legally what is on THEIR property.

My point is this - do not bitch about it if the neighbor high fences you off for doing so. If a neighbor is going to kill every deer with a horn then that is fine - as your neighbor then I will HF you off - do not complain about it
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/07/19 01:59 AM

I shoot 13-1/2" 2 y/o 8 points because I want to harvest more than two deer per year, and cannot legally take more than two does. If I were allowed to harvest four does I would, but the magical powers to be at tpwd will not allow me to legally do so. Would make no difference to me if my neighbor high fenced or not, I would still deer hunt the same way and be just as excited while I did so.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/07/19 03:51 PM

For the record.....my responses were not in favor of or against high fences. My responses were directed toward what I felt was a biased article.



Just wanted to clear that up before this spins off into a tangent on high fences, shooting immature deer and trophy vs. meat hunting and which of the two are more endearing and noble.
Posted By: don k

Re: Hornography - 06/07/19 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by txtrophy85
For the record.....my responses were not in favor of or against high fences. My responses were directed toward what I felt was a biased article.



Just wanted to clear that up before this spins off into a tangent on high fences, shooting immature deer and trophy vs. meat hunting and which of the two are more endearing and noble.

Which of the two are more endearing and noble? I think that depends on the individual. Everyone is their own individual. Thinking another can change their minds to go along with their way of thinking rarely works out.
Posted By: Halfadozen

Re: Hornography - 06/07/19 04:55 PM

I know a couple of gentlemen who own high fenced ranches, both of which are over 15 sections. Both men have managed their entire ranch - for everything from native flora and fauna, including only native deer. They have been very strict about maximizing the native genetics, herd density and buck to doe ratio's as well as age distribution. I guess my point is that not "all" high fences are bad - these 2 men are great stewards of their land.
Posted By: Choctaw

Re: Hornography - 06/07/19 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by txtrophy85
For the record.....my responses were not in favor of or against high fences. My responses were directed toward what I felt was a biased article.



Just wanted to clear that up before this spins off into a tangent on high fences, shooting immature deer and trophy vs. meat hunting and which of the two are more endearing and noble.


Too late.
Posted By: SnakeWrangler

Re: Hornography - 06/07/19 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Choctaw
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
For the record.....my responses were not in favor of or against high fences. My responses were directed toward what I felt was a biased article.



Just wanted to clear that up before this spins off into a tangent on high fences, shooting immature deer and trophy vs. meat hunting and which of the two are more endearing and noble.


Too late.

roflmao
Posted By: fishdfly

Re: Hornography - 06/11/19 12:07 PM

After reading the article in the OP post, think I will go throw up.
Posted By: NMGW

Re: Hornography - 06/11/19 07:36 PM

Wow what an eye opening thread. I joined the THF initially 7 years ago because I wanted to hunt Whitetail and the opportunities are far and few between in my home state. I did kill 4 whitetail's including one nice mature native deer. But I was very "turned off" by the bottled hunts and the breeding of what I consider unnatural antlers. IMHO a mature native whitetail from local genetics regardless of score, is more of a trophy than a 250 inch buck that can't even hold his up straight because of the weight of the antlers. I have in recent years turned my interests to exotics "axis, aoudad, oryx, etc.," because they are not being altered in the same way, and although not in there native habitat they are essentially the same animal you would hunt in there respective country of origin. The only whitetail hunt I would consider now would have to be low fence on a large ranch. Anyway just my 2cents
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/11/19 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by NMGW
Wow what an eye opening thread. I joined the THF initially 7 years ago because I wanted to hunt Whitetail and the opportunities are far and few between in my home state. I did kill 4 whitetail's including one nice mature native deer. But I was very "turned off" by the bottled hunts and the breeding of what I consider unnatural antlers. IMHO a mature native whitetail from local genetics regardless of score, is more of a trophy than a 250 inch buck that can't even hold his up straight because of the weight of the antlers. I have in recent years turned my interests to exotics "axis, aoudad, oryx, etc.," because they are not being altered in the same way, and although not in there native habitat they are essentially the same animal you would hunt in there respective country of origin. The only whitetail hunt I would consider now would have to be low fence on a large ranch. Anyway just my 2cents



I think 98% of the hunting population is turned off by “bottled” hunts for mutant deer.

But those 5% of the ranching operations get 95% of the press so it seems like they are everywhere
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by NMGW
Wow what an eye opening thread. I joined the THF initially 7 years ago because I wanted to hunt Whitetail and the opportunities are far and few between in my home state. I did kill 4 whitetail's including one nice mature native deer. But I was very "turned off" by the bottled hunts and the breeding of what I consider unnatural antlers. IMHO a mature native whitetail from local genetics regardless of score, is more of a trophy than a 250 inch buck that can't even hold his up straight because of the weight of the antlers. I have in recent years turned my interests to exotics "axis, aoudad, oryx, etc.," because they are not being altered in the same way, and although not in there native habitat they are essentially the same animal you would hunt in there respective country of origin. The only whitetail hunt I would consider now would have to be low fence on a large ranch. Anyway just my 2cents



I think 98% of the hunting population is turned off by “bottled” hunts for mutant deer.

But those 5% of the ranching operations get 95% of the press so it seems like they are everywhere


IMO your numbers should be something close to reversed. The high fences are put up to make big bucks easy to raise, easy to keep in one place, and ultimately easy to kill on the vast majority of places. Otherwise, there’s no need for the fences. All the other high-falutin’ reasons given are mostly bs given to either convince others or the one giving them that it’s all good. JMHO, but I hold it pretty tightly based on watching all this mess “evolve” since the beginning.
Posted By: Dave Davidson

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 11:25 AM

I hunted South Africa a couple of years ago. Just about all hunting there is high fence. 40 or so years ago there was very little game left. Indiscriminate killing in a protein starved world is easy to understand until you run out of animals. So, somebody started breeding them and selling to others who protected them with fences. The meat from the animals we shot was hauled to "town" and donated to protein starved people.

We don't have that situation here. I can't see me paying big $$$ to shoot any animal no matter what the circumstances. But, I don't care what others do. And, I don't care what the anti's think. Most of them need to go get a job.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by NMGW
Wow what an eye opening thread. I joined the THF initially 7 years ago because I wanted to hunt Whitetail and the opportunities are far and few between in my home state. I did kill 4 whitetail's including one nice mature native deer. But I was very "turned off" by the bottled hunts and the breeding of what I consider unnatural antlers. IMHO a mature native whitetail from local genetics regardless of score, is more of a trophy than a 250 inch buck that can't even hold his up straight because of the weight of the antlers. I have in recent years turned my interests to exotics "axis, aoudad, oryx, etc.," because they are not being altered in the same way, and although not in there native habitat they are essentially the same animal you would hunt in there respective country of origin. The only whitetail hunt I would consider now would have to be low fence on a large ranch. Anyway just my 2cents



I think 98% of the hunting population is turned off by “bottled” hunts for mutant deer.

But those 5% of the ranching operations get 95% of the press so it seems like they are everywhere


IMO your numbers should be something close to reversed. The high fences are put up to make big bucks easy to raise, easy to keep in one place, and ultimately easy to kill on the vast majority of places. Otherwise, there’s no need for the fences. All the other high-falutin’ reasons given are mostly bs given to either convince others or the one giving them that it’s all good. JMHO, but I hold it pretty tightly based on watching all this mess “evolve” since the beginning.

Your opinion lacks facts and is more about how you feel than substance; just a couple examples are the thousands of acres high fenced by TP&W for the factual reasons (research) you always ignore to suit your narrative. You also fail to mention the thousands of small property owners that have sprung up all over the state that legally shoot way more deer than their property supports. I travel and hunt all over the state and have not seen or experienced this mess that you claim has evolved. JMHO.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Halfadozen
I know a couple of gentlemen who own high fenced ranches, both of which are over 15 sections. Both men have managed their entire ranch - for everything from native flora and fauna, including only native deer. They have been very strict about maximizing the native genetics, herd density and buck to doe ratio's as well as age distribution. I guess my point is that not "all" high fences are bad - these 2 men are great stewards of their land.


This is another factual example NP, that you like to gloss over and ignore.....many landowners high fence for the reason of being the best land steward they can be. They live in areas where neighbors do nothing to manage their habitat and wild game. They end up with the problem the hill country has now..... way too many mouths to feed which destroys the habitat. You never get to truly see the potential of the NATIVE wildlife.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Originally Posted by NMGW
Wow what an eye opening thread. I joined the THF initially 7 years ago because I wanted to hunt Whitetail and the opportunities are far and few between in my home state. I did kill 4 whitetail's including one nice mature native deer. But I was very "turned off" by the bottled hunts and the breeding of what I consider unnatural antlers. IMHO a mature native whitetail from local genetics regardless of score, is more of a trophy than a 250 inch buck that can't even hold his up straight because of the weight of the antlers. I have in recent years turned my interests to exotics "axis, aoudad, oryx, etc.," because they are not being altered in the same way, and although not in there native habitat they are essentially the same animal you would hunt in there respective country of origin. The only whitetail hunt I would consider now would have to be low fence on a large ranch. Anyway just my 2cents



I think 98% of the hunting population is turned off by “bottled” hunts for mutant deer.

But those 5% of the ranching operations get 95% of the press so it seems like they are everywhere


IMO your numbers should be something close to reversed. The high fences are put up to make big bucks easy to raise, easy to keep in one place, and ultimately easy to kill on the vast majority of places. Otherwise, there’s no need for the fences. All the other high-falutin’ reasons given are mostly bs given to either convince others or the one giving them that it’s all good. JMHO, but I hold it pretty tightly based on watching all this mess “evolve” since the beginning.



Gonna have to disagree with you on this one sir. High fences are more often than not erected to control the harvest inside the fence. You have much better control of what's inside than with a low fence. One guy put it to me like this.....if I had a bank account, it would be a lot harder for me to manage if 4 of my neighbors had access to it. This way, only I have access to the account ( wildlife herd inside the fence). Whether or not that's fair, ethical etc. is another topic completely.


I can tell you, after visiting an average of 3 ranches a week, 48 a weeks a year for the past 10 years.....a high fence in and of itself does not make it easier to raise big bucks or easier to kill deer. Matter of fact, I know a few high fence places that don't have one buck worth a darn inside the fence, where low fence places have much better quality and quantity. High or low fence, it all boils down to what gets shot that determines deer quantity and quality. I know several low fence places of modest size that have great deer numbers along with excellent quality...because they and the neighbors are good stewards. This isnt' the case in many areas and the easiest way to remedy this is a high fence ( another alternative is to form a co-op and hope the neighbors play by the rules)

These are facts, not opinions. Again, the ethics of containing animals inside a barrier is another matter entirely.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 05:53 PM

Your post contradicts itself. First you point out that “control” is one reason for the fences, then you turn right around and say it makes no difference in the ability to raise or kill big deer. A HF does, in fact, make it both easier to raise and to kill big deer because it provides control over them that doesn’t exist in nature. It’s why they exist.

It’s so obvious I always marvel that there’s even a discussion about it.

Folks can say they’re fine or not fine with them, but to say they make no difference begs the question as to why folks spend thousands and thousands of $$$ building them. Of course they make a difference. They make THE difference that makes it all possible.

The “neighbors shooting deer” issue has been a part of free-range hunting since time began in one form or another.

The “my neighbor fenced in deer that used to come on my place and blocked traditional travel routes that have been used for a hundred years” is also an issue. One that didn’t exist before all the high fences started going up.
Posted By: fouzman

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 06:21 PM

NP, If bucks in a high fence are so easy to kill, why do many of them die of old age without EVER being seen by a hunter? I killed a deer two seasons ago on our place (1,800 HF acres in STX brush country) that I had been trying to kill for 2 years. He was 7 1/2 when he made a fatal error, coming out 2 minutes before the end of legal shooting light, because he had his mind on a doe. Prior to that encounter, no one had ever seen the deer on the hoof. And we have two rancheros living on the place. We had a few nocturnal trailcam photos of him over the years and finally, in 2016, got one daylight photo of him.

We have several other mature trophy deer and mature-post mature culls we've been trying to kill now for a couple years, to no avail. I'm sure trophy bucks behind smaller high fences or wide open spaces inside high fences can be easier to kill, but not on a ranch with abundant natural cover and proper sex ratios. I know this experience (and MANY other similar experiences) over my 49 years of chasing Texas whitetails isn't going to change your mind, but I'm confident when I say you paint all HF ranches with the same brush and that is where I completely disagree with you.

One other thing, due to their transient nature during the rut, low-fence bucks are much easier to kill for me.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 06:31 PM

I have never said all HF places are the same.
I have said IMO most HF places exist to make more big bucks and to make them easier to kill. To me, that’s pretty obvious if one has lived in Texas very long.

No doubt there are many HF places where bucks are both wild and not easy to kill. Even at that, every big buck on such a place is EASIER to kill than on a free range place because he can’t leave. Period.
Posted By: fouzman

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Even at that, every big buck on such a place is EASIER to kill than on a free range place because he can’t leave. Period.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. But understand your disdain for high fences and canned hunts.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Even at that, every big buck on such a place is EASIER to kill than on a free range place because he can’t leave. Period.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.


OK, I guess all that money building and maintaining those HFs is just a waste since it makes no difference. confused2
Posted By: SmallTownHunter

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 06:42 PM

"Low fence bucks are easier to kill"

I have heard it all now.
Posted By: fouzman

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Even at that, every big buck on such a place is EASIER to kill than on a free range place because he can’t leave. Period.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.


OK, I guess all that money building and maintaining those HFs is just a waste since it makes no difference. confused2


Nope. Helps us keep our herd numbers where they should be and helps us manipulate our sex ratios to the preferred 1:1. Helps us to cull inferior deer while letting the better bucks reach maturity. That's very hard to do on low fenced properties. We carry one deer to about 20 acres. Habitat and all other wildlife benefit. We're not of the thought that we're going to carry a deer/2-3 acres like some folks. That decimates habitat and costs $$$$$ in supplemental feed.
Posted By: fouzman

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
"Low fence bucks are easier to kill"

I have heard it all now.



Guess you've not hunted many large, low fence properties. You're much easier to kill when you get outside your core area. So are whitetails when they start roaming far and wide looking for does.
Posted By: SmallTownHunter

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 06:50 PM

No way I will ever believe only 5% of high fence places have white horn freak genetics.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
I have never said all HF places are the same.
I have said IMO most HF places exist to make more big bucks and to make them easier to kill. To me, that’s pretty obvious if one has lived in Texas very long.

No doubt there are many HF places where bucks are both wild and not easy to kill. Even at that, every big buck on such a place is EASIER to kill than on a free range place because he can’t leave. Period.

I’ve lived here all my life and disagree. How many HF ranches have you hunted?
Posted By: SmallTownHunter

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
"Low fence bucks are easier to kill"

I have heard it all now.



Guess you've not hunted many large, low fence properties. You're much easier to kill when you get outside your core area. So are whitetails when they start roaming far and wide looking for does.


Now your making assumptions. I have hunted all my life and actually grew up on a large low fence ranch, but it does not matter, any greenhorn with common sense knows what the fence is for.

I can't believe we are even debating this.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Even at that, every big buck on such a place is EASIER to kill than on a free range place because he can’t leave. Period.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.


OK, I guess all that money building and maintaining those HFs is just a waste since it makes no difference. confused2


Nope. Helps us keep our herd numbers where they should be and helps us manipulate our sex ratios to the preferred 1:1. Helps us to cull inferior deer while letting the better bucks reach maturity. That's very hard to do on low fenced properties. We carry one deer to about 20 acres. Habitat and all other wildlife benefit. We're not of the thought that we're going to carry a deer/2-3 acres like some folks. That decimates habitat and costs $$$$$ in supplemental feed.


I understand. All of which makes it easier to raise and kill big bucks vs. a free-range place that doesn’t have that level of control over the deer. Not to mention it keeps all those bucks on your place.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
"Low fence bucks are easier to kill"

I have heard it all now.



Guess you've not hunted many large, low fence properties. You're much easier to kill when you get outside your core area. So are whitetails when they start roaming far and wide looking for does.


Now your making assumptions. I have hunted all my life and actually grew up on a large low fence ranch, but it does not matter, any greenhorn with common sense knows what the fence is for.

I can't believe we are even debating this.


So you are assuming we all think the way you do?
Posted By: SmallTownHunter

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
Originally Posted by fouzman
Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
"Low fence bucks are easier to kill"

I have heard it all now.



Guess you've not hunted many large, low fence properties. You're much easier to kill when you get outside your core area. So are whitetails when they start roaming far and wide looking for does.


Now your making assumptions. I have hunted all my life and actually grew up on a large low fence ranch, but it does not matter, any greenhorn with common sense knows what the fence is for.

I can't believe we are even debating this.


So you are assuming we all think the way you do?



Absolutely not, I know none of you city folks will ever think like I do.
Posted By: don k

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 07:22 PM

I have a so called HF, not for raising WT but for raising Ibex. I also have WT that were either here when fenced or have jumped in the so called HF. I have hunters each year to harvest the amount of WT each year that I think need to be taken off the place. I have at 3 bucks that have not been taken in at least 4 years. A 13, 12 and 10 point. Come time to separate they become ghosts and usually not seen until at least Feb. I had a very good Axis that had jumped in a few years ago. I had offered him for sale. Somebody chimed in that since it would be a HF hunt it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. So I made an offer. If somebody wants to hunt him I have a deal. You give me $2000 and I will let you into the property at daylight. You get to hunt all day without a vehicle. If you get the Axis I will give you the $2000 back. If you don't I keep it. If you want to come back tomorrow bring another $2000 and you can try again. I had no takers.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by SmallTownHunter
No way I will ever believe only 5% of high fence places have white horn freak genetics.



maybe 10% .

is not as common as one would think if you take into consideration all the high fenced places in the state. Sure, a lot more than 10% have released deer onto their place, but most people look for typical, south texas looking stock, not a deer that looks like it grew up next to 3 mile island.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 07:32 PM

Lol I said I wasn’t going to get in an argument about it, but I’m coming dangerously close to doing so, so I’ll just let my prior posts stand for themselves as I think we’ve about covered it all anyway.

Lots of folks in Texas are kind of like the frog brought to a slow boil when it comes to HFs - they’ve just grown up with them and don’t see them as the obvious game-changer they are because they have been a part of the Texas landscape for so long. Folks elsewhere don’t have that issue I can assure you. And it is even changing here now as discussed above.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 08:15 PM

Folks elsewhere can pound sand if they don’t like it.....texas
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 08:46 PM

I don’t see that being the HF capital of the country is anything to be particularly proud of. YMMV.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 08:48 PM

You can always move elsewhere they welcome Texas Apologists and we have no use for them here.
Posted By: FamousAmos

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 09:24 PM

SPOT ON!!!!

High-fenced "hunting" operations are . . . well, read the article
Posted By: fishdfly

Re: Hornography - 06/12/19 09:24 PM

Read the link in the Op's post's and all responses. Have a neighbor who fits the link.

Seems he who types the loudest is the winner.
Posted By: shightower

Re: Hornography - 06/13/19 01:06 PM

I read the link and the comments. As with most issues both sides have a valid argument/concern.

My take on this is producers/ high fence places will be considered production agriculture and will be regulated as such. Regardless of opinions good/bad, this is what happens when you build a fence around something,breed it, and make huge profits.


I foresee it (highfence) being even more “special” and money driven than it already is. Some places will try to be competitive with low fence leases (130-140 class culls) but will not last to due to the foreseeable regulation coming.
Small places say 100-300 acres will get out of the game again due to regulation and extra expense.

The elite high fence places will have their $$ clientele and do well, and will play the regulation game will little issues due to $$$$.

The native deer herd will continue to do well, TPWD and Texas will continue to profit from traditional hunting.

I hope traditional hunting is spared from the high fence drama!
Posted By: ErnestTBass

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 06:31 PM

It's a tough issue. I appreciate that this debate has stayed so much more civil, despite the opening salvo/article being so divisive.

I think lots of high fence places are done well, generally preserving wildness and improving the deer herd.

That said, I think we have to be incredibly wary (maybe even prophylactic) against anything that smells like a canned hunt, even to the wholly uneducated urbanite. The future of our hobby/passion may depend upon it. If you think we can't get regulated out of existence, you'd better think again. It could happen to us.

Personally, I'd rather shoot "small" deer than do things that risk taking too much of the wildness out of hunting. What's "too much"? Both, that's a tough question. I don't mind planting or supplemental feeding. Personally, I won't build a high fence around any of my places. I understand that caps what I can do. I'll manage habitat and wildlife as best as I can in a low fence environment. And we'll probably shoot smaller deer, but we'll still shoot some good mature deer, and we will have a lot of fun doing it. But that's just me.
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 07:12 PM

well said ernest, but people's egos and the all mighty dollar have ruined it. To the goobers that support this type of hunting, managing habitat like you listed never crosses their minds. It's all about the kill, take pictures, plaster on social media, and head back to their gated subdivision. I understand that is not the majority of hunters, but that pct represents us as a whole to the antis. Just as in the waterfowl world. Many places that you could go hunt mass concentrations of ducks and geese within the last 5-6 years for free are now leased out beyond belief. Not by some guy wanting to put his kids on a few birds either. Commonly by outta state "guides" with outta town hunters. Show full tailgates on facagram, book hunts, fly up, shoot'em, take pics, post back on facagram, throw picture props in the ditch on a county rd on way to airport, fly back to the gated subdivision. it'll get worse too....
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 08:43 PM


^^^^

Lets just be honest, people from Houston ruin everything
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by ErnestTBass
It's a tough issue. I appreciate that this debate has stayed so much more civil, despite the opening salvo/article being so divisive.




Its not a hard line, black or white issue. I know many, many landowners who own high fence ranches who in a perfect world, would take them down/have never put them up, but situations ( neighbors, hunting pressure deer herd, etc.) dictated it was better to have them than not.


I hunt with people from several other states that cannot fathom us shooting deer over a feeder. At best, they laugh at us, some are downright disgusted at it. Yet most deer hunters in Texas drop their deer under a feeder. Last deer I shot, was not under a feeder, but I was in a UTV when I shot him, that is also frowned upon by a lot of people.


But again, I think we all unanimously agree that the types of places mentioned in the article, albiet being in the minority, for now at least, get most of the bad press.
Posted By: Choctaw

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:00 PM

You boys still trying to get this hammered out? roflmao
Posted By: SenkoSamurai

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Choctaw
You boys still trying to get this hammered out? roflmao

popcorn
Posted By: freerange

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by ErnestTBass
It's a tough issue. I appreciate that this debate has stayed so much more civil, despite the opening salvo/article being so divisive.

I think lots of high fence places are done well, generally preserving wildness and improving the deer herd.

That said, I think we have to be incredibly wary (maybe even prophylactic) against anything that smells like a canned hunt, even to the wholly uneducated urbanite. The future of our hobby/passion may depend upon it. If you think we can't get regulated out of existence, you'd better think again. It could happen to us.

Personally, I'd rather shoot "small" deer than do things that risk taking too much of the wildness out of hunting. What's "too much"? Both, that's a tough question. I don't mind planting or supplemental feeding. Personally, I won't build a high fence around any of my places. I understand that caps what I can do. I'll manage habitat and wildlife as best as I can in a low fence environment. And we'll probably shoot smaller deer, but we'll still shoot some good mature deer, and we will have a lot of fun doing it. But that's just me.


ErnestTBass-- very very well said. Ive posted more than once on here on this issue but you nailed it very well. I also want to reemphasize that considering the sensitivity of this issue I feel most everyone has remained very civil.
Posted By: txtrophy85

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Choctaw
You boys still trying to get this hammered out? roflmao



its easier to hammer something if its inside a high fence.....
Posted By: freerange

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Choctaw
You boys still trying to get this hammered out? roflmao


Choctaw-thanks for starting this thread. But, you know good and well this issue will NEVER be hammered out. However, I think the discussion has brought out a lot of good ideas and opinions. Whichever side someones on it is certainly an important topic.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by ErnestTBass
It's a tough issue. I appreciate that this debate has stayed so much more civil, despite the opening salvo/article being so divisive.

I think lots of high fence places are done well, generally preserving wildness and improving the deer herd.

That said, I think we have to be incredibly wary (maybe even prophylactic) against anything that smells like a canned hunt, even to the wholly uneducated urbanite. The future of our hobby/passion may depend upon it. If you think we can't get regulated out of existence, you'd better think again. It could happen to us.

Personally, I'd rather shoot "small" deer than do things that risk taking too much of the wildness out of hunting. What's "too much"? Both, that's a tough question. I don't mind planting or supplemental feeding. Personally, I won't build a high fence around any of my places. I understand that caps what I can do. I'll manage habitat and wildlife as best as I can in a low fence environment. And we'll probably shoot smaller deer, but we'll still shoot some good mature deer, and we will have a lot of fun doing it. But that's just me.


ErnestTBass-- very very well said. Ive posted more than once on here on this issue but you nailed it very well. I also want to reemphasize that considering the sensitivity of this issue I feel most everyone has remained very civil.


I agree that we should remain civil in these discussions. It's hard to do when people that have hunted HF ranches are insulted before the discussion gets started. When you paint HF hunting with a broad brush and state that these are nothing more than canned hunts you don't start off the conversation on sound footing.

I disagree with the opinion that as long as we don't give the impression of canned hunts the anti's will leave us alone........they will only be satisfied with NO HUNTING. PERIOD. In their minds it's the same end result: an animal gets killed. And you know what, that point can't be argued away, can it?
Posted By: Choctaw

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:31 PM

The anti's really don't care how we hunt. They care that we do hunt. As hunters we really shouldn't let topics such as this much fought-over issue divide us. As Marc said, they will never leave us alone.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:37 PM

It’s not the antis, it’s the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They don’t mind hunting but don’t like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(That’s only the 437th time I’ve typed that. Oh well....)
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
It’s not the antis, it’s the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They don’t mind hunting but don’t like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(That’s only the 437th time I’ve typed that. Oh well....)

So you speak for the non-hunters? Yeah right.........I know plenty of non-hunters; my wife, one of my daughters, my assistant at work, many neighbors and friends on my daughters' soccer team........never had one mention a word about canned hunts. Never noticed any non-hunting organizations that are actively promoting legislation or fund raising to stop canned hunts..........please post up facts INSTEAD of your opinion..........to back your claim.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
It’s not the antis, it’s the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They don’t mind hunting but don’t like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(That’s only the 437th time I’ve typed that. Oh well....)

So you speak for the non-hunters? Yeah right.........


No, I listen and read.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
It’s not the antis, it’s the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They don’t mind hunting but don’t like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(That’s only the 437th time I’ve typed that. Oh well....)

So you speak for the non-hunters? Yeah right.........I know plenty of non-hunters; my wife, one of my daughters, my assistant at work, many neighbors and friends on my daughters' soccer team........never had one mention a word about canned hunts. Never noticed any non-hunting organizations that are actively promoting legislation or fund raising to stop canned hunts..........please post up facts INSTEAD of your opinion..........to back your claim.


I’ve posted them a bunch. You don’t care. There are lots of studies and research on the subjects. Google is your friend. But, again, you don’t care. You’ve had the same hostility about this subject as you’ve always had.

P.S. Non-hunters don’t have organizations. That’s nonsensical. They can, however, become anti-hunters and join their organizations.

See votes banning different types of hunting in various states as further evidence.

Also, many states ban HFs statewide. That’s evidence that folks in those states don’t like them.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
It’s not the antis, it’s the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They don’t mind hunting but don’t like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(That’s only the 437th time I’ve typed that. Oh well....)

So you speak for the non-hunters? Yeah right.........I know plenty of non-hunters; my wife, one of my daughters, my assistant at work, many neighbors and friends on my daughters' soccer team........never had one mention a word about canned hunts. Never noticed any non-hunting organizations that are actively promoting legislation or fund raising to stop canned hunts..........please post up facts INSTEAD of your opinion..........to back your claim.


I’ve posted them a bunch. You don’t care. There are lots of studies and research on the subjects. Google is your friend. But, again, you don’t care. You’ve had the same hostility about this subject as you’ve always had.

P.S. Non-hunters don’t have organizations. That’s nonsensical. They can, however, become anti-hunters and join their organizations.

See votes banning different types of hunting in various states as evidence.

Strike 1
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 10:12 PM

Well, if the fact that canned hunting is banned in about half the states is not evidence to you that many don’t like it, I suppose nothing will be PP.

Obviously this issue is emotional to you for some reason. Your reasoning skills deteriorate and you can’t discuss it in a civil manner. All you do is see red whenever it comes up.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Well, if the fact that canned hunting is banned in about half the states is not evidence to you that many don’t like it, I suppose nothing will be PP.

Obviously this issue is emotional to you for some reason. Your reasoning skills deteriorate and you can’t discuss it in a civil manner. All you do is see red whenever it comes up.

"Many" is a very broad definition isn't it? I'm not emotional at all about it, just logical. You haven't posted any evidence of "non-hunters" being involved or behind hunting practices being banned in certain states. I'm well aware of the "anti-hunters" or "self righteous hunters" that push their hunting agenda, that's not what I asked for........and you know it.

I do take offense as you know to people that don't mind their own business. I think logically, not emotionally. Logically the end result is the same: a dead animal. If I kill it legally it's none of your business how I choose to do it. It's simple logic, not emotion. I also believe in respecting the choices other men make when it comes to logical choices that end up with the same result.
Posted By: don k

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Well, if the fact that canned hunting is banned in about half the states is not evidence to you that many don’t like it, I suppose nothing will be PP.

Obviously this issue is emotional to you for some reason. Your reasoning skills deteriorate and you can’t discuss it in a civil manner. All you do is see red whenever it comes up.

"Many" is a very broad definition isn't it? I'm not emotional at all about it, just logical. You haven't posted any evidence of "non-hunters" being involved or behind hunting practices being banned in certain states. I'm well aware of the "anti-hunters" or "self righteous hunters" that push their hunting agenda, that's not what I asked for........and you know it.

I do take offense as you know to people that don't mind their own business. I think logically, not emotionally. Logically the end result is the same: a dead animal. If I kill it legally it's none of your business how I choose to do it. It's simple logic, not emotion. I also believe in respecting the choices other men make when it comes to logical choices that end up with the same result.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 10:34 PM

PP it divides hunters (much less non hunters) - more than half of the folks on this hunting site abhor it.

Think about what that tells you re: those that don’t hunt in the first place. The practice being banned in half the country shows how frowned upon it is by many. So much so they outlawed it. It’s not like opposing canned hunting is some new or novel concept. By either hunters or non-hunters. Geez.

You always cite “logic” and ask for “evidence” - yet rarely employ either in your responses to this subject.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 10:38 PM

For those on this thread that don't know me, I have hunted very few HF hunts. Mainly friends who HF their places for exotics to hunt, they really don't care much about managing their white tail. Many ranches in Texas HF for this primary reason, not growing freakish horned white tails. The majority of my hunting I've done on very large low fenced properties. When I get involved in these discussions I'm defending the principles I live my life by. I'm a strong supporter of private property rights as well.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/18/19 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
PP it divides hunters (much less non hunters) - more than half of the folks on this hunting site abhor it.

Think about what that tells you re: those that don’t hunt in the first place. The practice being banned in half the country shows how frowned upon it is by many. So much so they outlawed it. It’s not like opposing canned hunting is some new or novel concept. By either hunters or non-hunters. Geez.

You always cite “logic” and ask for “evidence” - yet rarely employ either in your responses to this subject.

That's your opinion NP..........you don't have the final say on who's being logical or emotional as much as you would like to believe you do......I could say the same of your posts on this subject which IMO are all based on "emotion" and the way you feel about it. Period....as you like to end.......
Posted By: Choctaw

Re: Hornography - 06/19/19 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
It’s not the antis, it’s the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They don’t mind hunting but don’t like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).

(That’s only the 437th time I’ve typed that. Oh well....)


Sorry, I don’t hang on your every word and you have no argument with me. We basically agree except I will never tell anyone how they should hunt as long as it’s legal.
Posted By: 10 Gauge

Re: Hornography - 06/19/19 03:48 AM

"The faux frontier world of manufactured deer and canned hunting in Texas".

I never got past that first sentence. I can't say what I think about this article on this forum.
Posted By: ErnestTBass

Re: Hornography - 06/19/19 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
It’s not the antis, it’s the non-hunters that will decide our fate. They don’t mind hunting but don’t like canned hunts and HFs seem like canned hunting to them (whether you and I agree with that or not).


I generally agree with this. Go see what happened with fox hunting in England. Peta alone can't beat you. You lose when it becomes about something more - e.g. class warfare or you piss off the soccer moms. Canned hunting is the sort of thing that could do that.

I do not believe that most HF hunting is canned. Quite the contrary. I think that a very, very small % of it is canned. Most of it is just as difficult as low fence hunting, though you may have better animals around because the population has been managed. But I also think that it is very difficult for HF operations to convince the proverbial soccer mom, the random urbanite or suburbanite. Those people have no frame of reference for this. And any sort of PR campaign would be losing before it started.
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by ErnestTBass
It's a tough issue. I appreciate that this debate has stayed so much more civil, despite the opening salvo/article being so divisive.

I think lots of high fence places are done well, generally preserving wildness and improving the deer herd.

That said, I think we have to be incredibly wary (maybe even prophylactic) against anything that smells like a canned hunt, even to the wholly uneducated urbanite. The future of our hobby/passion may depend upon it. If you think we can't get regulated out of existence, you'd better think again. It could happen to us.

Personally, I'd rather shoot "small" deer than do things that risk taking too much of the wildness out of hunting. What's "too much"? Both, that's a tough question. I don't mind planting or supplemental feeding. Personally, I won't build a high fence around any of my places. I understand that caps what I can do. I'll manage habitat and wildlife as best as I can in a low fence environment. And we'll probably shoot smaller deer, but we'll still shoot some good mature deer, and we will have a lot of fun doing it. But that's just me.


ErnestTBass-- very very well said. Ive posted more than once on here on this issue but you nailed it very well. I also want to reemphasize that considering the sensitivity of this issue I feel most everyone has remained very civil.


I agree that we should remain civil in these discussions. It's hard to do when people that have hunted HF ranches are insulted before the discussion gets started. When you paint HF hunting with a broad brush and state that these are nothing more than canned hunts you don't start off the conversation on sound footing.

I disagree with the opinion that as long as we don't give the impression of canned hunts the anti's will leave us alone........they will only be satisfied with NO HUNTING. PERIOD. In their minds it's the same end result: an animal gets killed. And you know what, that point can't be argued away, can it?


I'm not worried about the antis. They won't ever decide this issue. There aren't enough of them. What we cannot do is give them enough ammo to turn the proverbial soccer moms against us en masse. Canned hunting (or the wide perception thereof) is the kind of thing that could be used for that purpose.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/19/19 08:24 PM

I'm not a fan of it Ernest, and I agree it's not the perception we want from the general non-hunting public. However, I never read or hear chatter about this from this group........where I read and hear the chatter is from hunters themselves or reporters with an agenda like this one. IMO the best thing we can do as hunters is support what's legal and stop any further government regulation or intrusion.
Posted By: freerange

Re: Hornography - 06/19/19 09:06 PM

Ive elaborated my 2 cents earlier in this thread but ill address the recent comments about the antis and the non hunters being an issue with our hunting future. I agree with Pitch that I do not hear a lot of negative chatter from non hunters. I think that stands to reason since they are somewhat neutral or just ignorant or merely unmindful. However, if they are given reason to care then I hope we(as hunters) have our act together enough to get them on our side. I personally have five kids and an ex wife that are "non hunters" but not anti hunters. They don't talk bad about hunting but they don't talk good about it. They all vote so if push ever comes to shove and they come to me for advice on voting I hope there is still some "wild" in wildlife so I can have a chance at swaying them.
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/19/19 11:34 PM

pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.
Posted By: txshntr

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.



Same has been said about feeders...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about deer drives...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about shooting out of a vehicle safari style...we should get rid of them
Same has been said about hunting deer with dogs...we did get rid of them
Same has been said about shooting at long distances...we should stop that too
Bow hunters argue against gun hunters
Gun hunters argue against bow hunters
Traditional hunters think all the others are cheating

And the list goes on....

I have been on many HF ranches. I don't hunt HF places but can appreciate them for what they are and for the trophies that people take off them. I am a firm believer in property rights and minding my own business. Biggest issue I see with most these arguments is that if someone disagrees with someone else's method, they don't think the other person should do it.

I do appreciate the civil manner in which this thread has gone. Much better than in the past cheers
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.

I am ready for that conversation if and when it walks up to me, until then I will concern myself with my ethics, not others.
Posted By: woodduckhunter

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by txshntr
Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.



Same has been said about feeders...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about deer drives...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about shooting out of a vehicle safari style...we should get rid of them
Same has been said about hunting deer with dogs...we did get rid of them
Same has been said about shooting at long distances...we should stop that too
Bow hunters argue against gun hunters
Gun hunters argue against bow hunters
Traditional hunters think all the others are cheating

And the list goes on....

I have been on many HF ranches. I don't hunt HF places but can appreciate them for what they are and for the trophies that people take off them. I am a firm believer in property rights and minding my own business. Biggest issue I see with most these arguments is that if someone disagrees with someone else's method, they don't think the other person should do it.

I do appreciate the civil manner in which this thread has gone. Much better than in the past cheers



The people on this thread that disagree with HFs are not saying that people shouldn't be able to high fence, or have their private property rights infringed upon. Whether everyone agrees or not, HFs are not good publicity. Even though a smaller % of them grow horn freaks, they all get painted with that picture by non hunters. I for one am 100% for private property rights and the fact that there are already so many restrictions on what you can already do on your OWN place can be disturbing. It bothers me that there is a rule book as long as it is for hunting regs on your OWN place. But, it's 2019 and the world we live in.
Posted By: txshntr

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
Originally Posted by txshntr
Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.



Same has been said about feeders...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about deer drives...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about shooting out of a vehicle safari style...we should get rid of them
Same has been said about hunting deer with dogs...we did get rid of them
Same has been said about shooting at long distances...we should stop that too
Bow hunters argue against gun hunters
Gun hunters argue against bow hunters
Traditional hunters think all the others are cheating

And the list goes on....

I have been on many HF ranches. I don't hunt HF places but can appreciate them for what they are and for the trophies that people take off them. I am a firm believer in property rights and minding my own business. Biggest issue I see with most these arguments is that if someone disagrees with someone else's method, they don't think the other person should do it.

I do appreciate the civil manner in which this thread has gone. Much better than in the past cheers



The people on this thread that disagree with HFs are not saying that people shouldn't be able to high fence, or have their private property rights infringed upon. Whether everyone agrees or not, HFs are not good publicity. Even though a smaller % of them grow horn freaks, they all get painted with that picture by non hunters. I for one am 100% for private property rights and the fact that there are already so many restrictions on what you can already do on your OWN place can be disturbing. It bothers me that there is a rule book as long as it is for hunting regs on your OWN place. But, it's 2019 and the world we live in.



There are a few on this thread that I know for a fact would argue that no one should be allowed to build a HF at all, not saying you are one.

My point is that there are many issues within our community that non-hunters would find unethical (including HF) if you presented it to them.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
Originally Posted by txshntr
Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.



Same has been said about feeders...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about deer drives...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about shooting out of a vehicle safari style...we should get rid of them
Same has been said about hunting deer with dogs...we did get rid of them
Same has been said about shooting at long distances...we should stop that too
Bow hunters argue against gun hunters
Gun hunters argue against bow hunters
Traditional hunters think all the others are cheating

And the list goes on....

I have been on many HF ranches. I don't hunt HF places but can appreciate them for what they are and for the trophies that people take off them. I am a firm believer in property rights and minding my own business. Biggest issue I see with most these arguments is that if someone disagrees with someone else's method, they don't think the other person should do it.

I do appreciate the civil manner in which this thread has gone. Much better than in the past cheers



The people on this thread that disagree with HFs are not saying that people shouldn't be able to high fence, or have their private property rights infringed upon. Whether everyone agrees or not, HFs are not good publicity. Even though a smaller % of them grow horn freaks, they all get painted with that picture by non hunters. I for one am 100% for private property rights and the fact that there are already so many restrictions on what you can already do on your OWN place can be disturbing. It bothers me that there is a rule book as long as it is for hunting regs on your OWN place. But, it's 2019 and the world we live in.


Bow hunting and primitive weapons including ML cause way more harm. If the goal is consumption then your are morally and ethical mandated to take an animal as quickly and as efficiently as possible.... primitive weapons via your ideology should then be outlawed for cruel and less effective and less efficient dispatching of Wildlife. Why wouldn’t you use the most effective and efficient method to take a life so you can eat it.

Hell hunting predators like bears is more argumentative then private property fence heights in non migrating ungulate states. FACT!!!

Ironically most HF ranches could better explain and demonstrate their conservation achievements to non hunters and actually back it up with science back habitat studies and all encompassing flora studies that pertain to way more then just deer, then bob the pulpit pounding superior ethical grandstander, that only took 3 quarters(one was to blood shot) and backstraps but left trimming and organ meat for the coons, that also wasted and tossed half his whataburger in the trash after lunch. Irony

Maybe we would should look in our very own mirrors before we start projecting about others hunting traditions

End of the day an animal dies, it’s how we glorify it that typically screws us in the non hunting crowd. We have a RECORD BOOK that glorifies an animals antler size as to its relevance... think about that for a second. Most hunters couldn’t explain why and what that system “originally” represented. Sad
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by txshntr
Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
Originally Posted by txshntr
Originally Posted by woodduckhunter
pitchfork, your post are all about supporting what is "legal". Just because the federal, state, or local govt deems something as a "legal" activity, does not at all mean that it is ethically correct, or viewed as so by non-hunters. Hunting ethics vary obviously from hunter to hunter. But to the average non hunter you could walk up to, they would not say that hunting animals behind an enclosure that they can not go and come as they please as being ethical.



Same has been said about feeders...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about deer drives...we should get rid of them (some states have)
Same has been said about shooting out of a vehicle safari style...we should get rid of them
Same has been said about hunting deer with dogs...we did get rid of them
Same has been said about shooting at long distances...we should stop that too
Bow hunters argue against gun hunters
Gun hunters argue against bow hunters
Traditional hunters think all the others are cheating

And the list goes on....

I have been on many HF ranches. I don't hunt HF places but can appreciate them for what they are and for the trophies that people take off them. I am a firm believer in property rights and minding my own business. Biggest issue I see with most these arguments is that if someone disagrees with someone else's method, they don't think the other person should do it.

I do appreciate the civil manner in which this thread has gone. Much better than in the past cheers



The people on this thread that disagree with HFs are not saying that people shouldn't be able to high fence, or have their private property rights infringed upon. Whether everyone agrees or not, HFs are not good publicity. Even though a smaller % of them grow horn freaks, they all get painted with that picture by non hunters. I for one am 100% for private property rights and the fact that there are already so many restrictions on what you can already do on your OWN place can be disturbing. It bothers me that there is a rule book as long as it is for hunting regs on your OWN place. But, it's 2019 and the world we live in.



There are a few on this thread that I know for a fact would argue that no one should be allowed to build a HF at all, not saying you are one.
My point is that there are many issues within our community that non-hunters would find unethical (including HF) .......depending on how you presented it to them.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^**********
Posted By: don k

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 12:11 PM

To me what hurts hunting the most in the eyes of non hunters is not HF-LF but pictures like the one on here a while back of a person lying beside a dead Deer..And also when taking pictures of your trophy don't take it with a fence in the back round. Quite a few years back I had some hunters here from Germany. When they took an animal they displayed the respect the animal deserved. Just my 2 cents as always.
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by don k
To me what hurts hunting the most in the eyes of non hunters is not HF-LF but pictures like the one on here a while back of a person lying beside a dead Deer..And also when taking pictures of your trophy don't take it with a fence in the back round. Quite a few years back I had some hunters here from Germany. When they took an animal they displayed the respect the animal deserved. Just my 2 cents as always.


100%

A lot of guys on this thread that want the boat sank and have no issues shooting holes in the boat and tossing fellow hunters out and watching sharks eat them, just so the sharks aren’t as hungry for them when the boat does sink.

If everyone would of just checked their motives, egos and paddled together the sharks are insignificant


Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 01:09 PM

Amazing to me some can get apoplectic about others having an opinion different than them on HF, yet have the opinion themselves that hunters should portray themselves/communicate in a better light (which I agree with also). As if it’s not the act itself but the fact that people know about it that’s the real problem. That’s like saying stealing is or poaching is not a problem unless you get caught.

“HF is no problem just keep it out of the photos lest we put hunting in a negative light.”
“Respect the animal - but it’s fine for anyone to pen them, kill them, and call it hunting.”
“The bad ol’ record book is really the problem, not the canned hunts themselves.”

Ooooooooo............k.

Wow. Amazing what can be looked over and ignored that’s right in front of you when you’ve been raised in a HF environment.

You boys have fun. smile
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 01:16 PM

BTW, policing is policing. If you are willing to say hunters should do this but shouldn’t do that on any issue, you can’t then come on here and accuse others of being “divisive” or “shooting holes in the boat” when they disagree with you on a different issue.

I.E. You can’t attack other hunters and hunter’s groups like B&C because you don’t like something they are doing and then accuse others who disagree with you on HF of being “divisive” and not “sticking together”.

That’s called hypocrisy. I get very few know what that means or even care anymore.

What that means is if y’all can have an opinion about how other hunters should portray themselves as hunters because it affects all of us who hunt, then so can those of us who have an opinion on HF hunting for the same reason.
Posted By: Rustler

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 01:50 PM

Seems the Author & his article got the reaction he was after, notoriety, stirring up controversy & vocalizing uneducated opinions with little reliance on fact.

Now days, it works every time.

Didja know the aflatoxin in deer corn kills more quail every year than predators & hunters combined...
So hunters that use corn feeders are responsible for the decline in quail numbers.

Not really 100% true but anyone can make up crap that many will take as fact on face value alone.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
BTW, policing is policing. If you are willing to say hunters should do this but shouldn’t do that on any issue, you can’t then come on here and accuse others of being “divisive” or “shooting holes in the boat” when they disagree with you on a different issue.

I.E. You can’t attack other hunters and hunter’s groups like B&C because you don’t like something they are doing and then accuse others who disagree with you on HF of being “divisive” and not “sticking together”.

That’s called hypocrisy. I get very few know what that means or even care anymore.

What that means is if y’all can have an opinion about how other hunters should portray themselves as hunters because it affects all of us who hunt, then so can those of us who have an opinion on HF hunting for the same reason.

You do it all the time. Your hypocrisy is sickening. An example:

You make statements like you did in this thread about HF hunting being for the rich who want to guarantee themselves a big buck and are willing to pay for the bragging rights.......

How much do you pay for your sheep hunts? Why are the success rates so high? $20,000+ per hunt pays for hours and hours of scouting for the guides that set up your hunt where you can practically set your watch for when the ram shows up. All you have to do is not huff and puff too much to make the shot. Have you discussed this type of hunt with the non hunting public for their approval? NO. Would they be ok with it? NO. But your ok with it because your hypocrisy rules the day......
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 02:01 PM

PP all that comparison goes to show is that you know next to nothing about sheep hunting.
But I get it - if you can’t respond to the point then attack the poster. It’s your stock in trade.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
PP all that comparison goes to show is that you know next to nothing about sheep hunting.

I doubt the forum members would agree with you......and you know nothing about what I know.
Posted By: Nogalus Prairie

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
PP all that comparison goes to show is that you know next to nothing about sheep hunting.

I doubt the forum members would agree with you......and you know nothing about what I know.


Lol your posts speak for themselves. Anyone who compares mountain sheep hunting to penned deer hunting reveals all one needs to know.
Posted By: Pitchfork Predator

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted by Nogalus Prairie
PP all that comparison goes to show is that you know next to nothing about sheep hunting.

I doubt the forum members would agree with you......and you know nothing about what I know.


Lol your posts speak for themselves. Anyone who compares mountain sheep hunting to penned deer hunting reveals all one needs to know.

Please school me then....you can start by answering my 2 questions: How much do you pay? What's the success rate?
Posted By: txshntr

Re: Hornography - 06/20/19 02:18 PM

And then it starts to go down hill...until the next time boys cheers
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