Really?? There's not a dog out there that doesn't know when the collar is off or on. They're not stupid.

Angie

Hey, you're the pro.

Boom! Nail on the head.

Everything I ever read or was told was that you don't want your dog to become collar wise. Now I see they all are no matter what.

I'm not being a smartass though when I said you're the pro. You definitely know a lot more than me.

Just because they are a pro doesn't mean they are never wrong. Not saying she's wrong here but just saying.

In my opinion, being collar wise or trial wise is an excuse people use for a poorly trained dog.

Robby

Or a really hard headed smart one.

Never seen that in the same dog.

Robby

My 8 year old Lab is a completely different dog the minute I put the collar on.
I thought they were all that way because the are such smart dogs.
Most days I never hit the button but the second the collar comes off he gets selective hearing.

I use a Sport Dog 425. I have used it for 3 years with my retriever with no issues. The collar and transmitter are small and lightweight. Expect to pay about $190.00 for it.

Jay

I had several. If they saw a deer and ran it I would shock them. Later on if by chance they did not have the collar on they would still chase it. If they had the collar on they would stand and watch it run. Coincidence.... maybe but I think not. Collarwise yes but still hard headed enough to do what they want when it's off. Now I don't know any other way to break a dog from chasing deer otherthan Hi Intensity electro stimulation. Do you? (And I'm not being a smart alec. Serious question)

I would do it the same as I would snake breaking a dog. You'd have to be around enough deer that you could get enough corrections in to teach them they don't want to be around deer.

Robby

Maybe for some... I know dogs can choose to be compliant or not with or without the collar.

Angie

I reiterate what I have stated before. It is better to have the dog want to do what you want it to do than to force it through threat of pain. I understand in FT or hunt situational training sometimes we must ask more of the dog than what they would normally willingly do. And coercion through whatever type of re enforcement you might call it, positive or negative, by causing or threatening pain is the accepted way to do it.

So do you think that the dog "wants" to bring the prey that he just worked hard to get back to you or does he "want" to take it to his den and eat it himself?

I've been through Hillmann's puppy DVD and TRT. I can tell you right now that FF and the use of the e-collar are going to be my greatest challenges. I don't see anything wrong with the use of the e-collar though.

The desire to please is still there and when the dog knows what you want and does it how you want it you use the collar less and less.

I've decided on the camo version of the Dogtra Arc by the way.

Oh and "TRT2" was really good and I really enjoyed "Training a Retriever Puppy" and thought it was awesome.

I believe the dog does it out of the desire to please. A dog who gets satisfaction from praise and the bond between you and it tends to do what you want, including returning a downed bird. Much like we return to work on Monday after a paycheck on Friday because the reward keeps us going back for more. And if you are good at what you do and derive satisfaction from it the process becomes as crucial as the reward.

Are you the guy who always brags about his great dog and then finally gets to bring him along and he busts every covey and hunts for himself all day. After the hunt are you the guy that is still bragging on his dog talking about the drive he has to run all day. If you are I've hunted with you before.

Just like kids, if there is no fear of discipline, they will do the work as long as it suits them.

Robby

I can see you are unable to participate in a discussion without using insults and snide remarks to try to be little someone so you can bully them into submission.

I cannot disagree with you here, and also understand the usefulness of the ecollar for training. However I don't agree with it being something my dog wears all the time. If I have a dog that unwilling to comply, maybe that dog isn't suited to the needs of the owner.

The modern (I have used the old ones) e-collar is a fabulous training tool. Though it can be strapped on a dog with years of disobedience in order to comply, it is a much more effective tool, when brought alongside other tools from the start. You have the leash, check cord, pinch collar, healing stick, e-collar, training partners, bird launchers, lots of birds, time, patience, etc.. They are all needed. Let's also remember, a lot of championship dogs were finished before the e-collar even existed. Personally, I have finished a number of pointers and retrievers without the use of a collar at all. It is not needed. With that said, I am a huge advocate of e-collars. The lightweight size of current e-collars and the variability of stimulation make it a great tool.

Example: though I still use check cords, the e-collar has allowed me to move off of check cords earlier and has made it safer for my dog when training. Having a retriever or pointer drag a long check cord is a necessity for a time, but a hassle and dangerous in the long run.

Decades ago "collar conditioning" was having a dog get use to the weight of the collar. I even remember some heavy shock collars came with a weighted dummy collar. Today, "collar conditioning" is much more. It is bringing it into all the commands (sit, here, fetch, etc..) - without the dog vocalizing I must add. Additionally, it is used as pressure not discipline, similar to applying pressure with a pinch collar until a dog sits (or whoa).

I realize this thread was originally about what to buy but saw it drift a bit.

My $0.02

As someone who has never used an e-collar how do you decide what level to use?

Start low and just gradually increase till you get a reaction?

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The guy that does the perfect start video said this