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Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: Shadow357x2] #5551850 01/19/15 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Shadow357x2
Since some people arent able to use the search function or read the entire thread, I will spell it out for you.
To correct the reticle from moving so far off the screen its only a matter of shimming to get the scope inline with the bore then finish zeroing from there. Basic zeroing, how hard is it to get it in your heads. Yes some of the scopes came (mine as well) with the base crooked and not exactly inline but take your time and read from page one.


Not sure who you are directing this at specifically, but I've never had to shim a scope in my life. After a long discussion with several people from ATN, they said you should not have to shim your scope at all. They said they highly discourage anyone from doing this.

Just wanted to let you know what ATN said about "shimming".

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: cyberpyrot] #5551866 01/19/15 06:06 PM
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True or not, ATN has stated you cannot go back in firmware.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: dfwroadkill] #5551885 01/19/15 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
True or not, ATN has stated you cannot go back in firmware.


So much for backward compatability. It would be nice to be able to do it. I guess theres a checksum in the software to prevent it.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: Shadow357x2] #5551887 01/19/15 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Shadow357x2
Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
True or not, ATN has stated you cannot go back in firmware.


So much for backward compatability. It would be nice to be able to do it. I guess theres a checksum in the software to prevent it.


Backwards compatibility would be great.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: LastHurrah] #5551890 01/19/15 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: LastHurrah
Originally Posted By: Shadow357x2
Since some people arent able to use the search function or read the entire thread, I will spell it out for you.
To correct the reticle from moving so far off the screen its only a matter of shimming to get the scope inline with the bore then finish zeroing from there. Basic zeroing, how hard is it to get it in your heads. Yes some of the scopes came (mine as well) with the base crooked and not exactly inline but take your time and read from page one.


Not sure who you are directing this at specifically, but I've never had to shim a scope in my life. After a long discussion with several people from ATN, they said you should not have to shim your scope at all. They said they highly discourage anyone from doing this.

Just wanted to let you know what ATN said about "shimming".


Good to hear but after lenthy conversations here as well I got a totally different responce. In fact they encouraged it if the mount wasnt so far off that it couldnt be done and there isnt a warrenty issue by doing it.
I guess its who you talk to and the mood they are in.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: LastHurrah] #5551893 01/19/15 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: LastHurrah
Backwards compatibility would be great.


I agree. A rollback option should be part of their upgrade process, in case of a botched install, buggy firmware release, or other unintended consequences. Software does screw up, after all.


"Being Right, and being Reasonable, are not automatically synonymous." - Me
Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: Shadow357x2] #5551922 01/19/15 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Shadow357x2
Originally Posted By: LastHurrah
Originally Posted By: Shadow357x2
Since some people arent able to use the search function or read the entire thread, I will spell it out for you.
To correct the reticle from moving so far off the screen its only a matter of shimming to get the scope inline with the bore then finish zeroing from there. Basic zeroing, how hard is it to get it in your heads. Yes some of the scopes came (mine as well) with the base crooked and not exactly inline but take your time and read from page one.


Not sure who you are directing this at specifically, but I've never had to shim a scope in my life. After a long discussion with several people from ATN, they said you should not have to shim your scope at all. They said they highly discourage anyone from doing this.

Just wanted to let you know what ATN said about "shimming".


Good to hear but after lenthy conversations here as well I got a totally different responce. In fact they encouraged it if the mount wasnt so far off that it couldnt be done and there isnt a warrenty issue by doing it.
I guess its who you talk to and the mood they are in.


That doesn't surprise me. I asked them about the shims from your response 10 pages back or so because I thought that was a good idea but they were insistent that I send it back for an exchange. If it happens again I will try your shims fo sho.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: MoShootr] #5551923 01/19/15 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: MoShootr
Originally Posted By: LastHurrah
Backwards compatibility would be great.


I agree. A rollback option should be part of their upgrade process, in case of a botched install, buggy firmware release, or other unintended consequences. Software does screw up, after all.


Agreed. I'm keeping all my firmware just in case.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: LastHurrah] #5551928 01/19/15 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: LastHurrah
Originally Posted By: MoShootr
Originally Posted By: LastHurrah
Backwards compatibility would be great.


I agree. A rollback option should be part of their upgrade process, in case of a botched install, buggy firmware release, or other unintended consequences. Software does screw up, after all.


Agreed. I'm keeping all my firmware just in case.


LastHurrah I dont think they will send you another misaligned one but who knows. let us know when you get it back so we can walk through it.


I'm a terrible shot but I follow up with a grenade!
Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: cyberpyrot] #5551934 01/19/15 06:36 PM
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Remember, just because they said it doesn't make it so. That could change. Just wanted to share what I know had been stated.

Last edited by dfwroadkill; 01/19/15 06:38 PM.
Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: dfwroadkill] #5551949 01/19/15 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: dfwroadkill
Remember, just because they said ut doesn't make it so. That could change. Just wanted to share what I know had been stated.


I don t doubt you one bit.
It would just be nice to be able to just in case. As I initially said maybe a corrupt firmware update comes along and IF we had the ability to go back to a previous version it would save alot of time because at that point we would all be sending the scopes back to ATN and now we are back to the waiting game again.
I would think there would be a failsafe in place, just for a incident like this.
Actually Im good with what I got for the price, so what, I had to do a little "adjusting" but then again Im the curious type.

Last edited by Shadow357x2; 01/19/15 06:41 PM.
Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: LastHurrah] #5551997 01/19/15 06:57 PM
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Sachal's answer to this question was not definitive:
<Quote>
All,
Firmware logs will soon be posted. As to being able to revert back to the old firmware, that won't be possible, unless someone here keeps a record of it. There is honestly no reason why you'd want to install the older firmware.
<Unquote>
"unless someone here keeps a record of it" might mean that they just don't keep archives or maybe Sachal doesn't know about an archive.
Being able to backup to an earlier version would be indeed be good. I don't think ATN knows much about software development. Hang on to those old versions we may yet have a use for them although progress has seemingly been in a forward direction so far.
Someone might ask for an answer from their programmers regarding reverting to older versions. Pardon my low tech posting. I've never posted on any forum before. Maybe some day I'll fancy things up with gee-gaws and such stuff.
MM

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: mikeee2] #5552058 01/19/15 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: mikeee2
Being able to backup to an earlier version would be indeed be good. I don't think ATN knows much about software development.
MM


I see no reason for you to apologize, you clearly have foresight to see the wisdom in keeping your options open, regarding software.

I agree with you that from what I've seen so far, ATN does not have much software development experience. This is the big reason why the product rollout was so botched. It seems clear that they completely underestimated how much time and effort would be involved in the firmware development of this thing.

I also think that Sachal's mentioning that there's no reason to install the older firmware speaks to a lack of experience in how software rollout works. You must ALWAYS keep backups, and the backups of the backups, and always be able to undo something you've done. One-way thinking in software is never a good idea.

This is why in some of my previous posts (and in other forums) I've tried to give ATN some tips in this arena. I work with firmware embedded devices every day in my profession (modems, routers, wimax radios), and I can't count the number of times I've seen a new 'update' cause major service disruptions. Or major security vulnerabilities that can only be fixed with firmware rewrites, just as one example.

I do hope ATN is listening, and I don't want to be too harsh on Sachal. He's not a programmer, he's a community contact. I sincerely do hope that their software devs are forward-thinking and are planning ahead with how to support software. If not, I'm quite sure they're gonna get a crash course sooner or later. LOL.


"Being Right, and being Reasonable, are not automatically synonymous." - Me
Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: cyberpyrot] #5552099 01/19/15 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Staff Scott-Country 6 hours ago
Hello all.
We have been unable to post on the ATN Forum as their settings do not allow PAGES to post.
We have created a Staff Scott-Country Facebook profile to enable us to post on the forum, however we must stress that any messages be sent via www.facebook.com/scottcountry or emailed to info@scottcountry.co.uk
As ATN UK distributors we have been constantly in contact with ATN International to ensure the firmware update to resolve the issues the UK customers have been experiencing is implemented as quickly as possible.
As a direct result of our constant efforts to resolve these issues, we requested ATN/Marc Vayn (ATN CEO) to supply us with a letter informing users what is happening with X Sight bug fixes, and confirming that the issues WILL be resolved and that it is not a HARDWARE issue and will be resolved in a firmware update which the factory has already been completed but is being tested and any bugs cleaned up.
We have emailed ATN again today, with a firm request that any future updates have information below showing what the update does i.e a bug fix or new functionality AND a firm date on when the new firmware will be available for download.
I spoke personally with a director of ATN International on Friday and we are assured that the developers are working tirelessly on this firmware update.
I appreciate some people have concerns that ATN Corp have not replied to their questions, I cannot comment on that, however should any UK customers have issues they wish to discuss we will be more than happy to speak with you directly, and pass on any information to ATN International you wish us to.
You can contact our team directly (4 lines) on 01556 50 3587 or email us at info@scottcountry.co.uk
With time constraints of a very busy business we cannot monitor this page regularly, but will post if/when we can, but will assure anyone who emails or calls that you will have our fullest attention.
We will be at the British Shooting Show (ATN will also have a separate non retail stand at the show) so should you wish to pop along as see us we would be pleased to see you, but will be doing everything we can to ensure the new firmware is in place long before the show takes place.
Yours Faithfully
Scott Country Sales Team
P.S David, i have spoken with you on the phone today, and replied to your last email of 5th Jan (which had already been replied to) once again. Please check you have had our reply, and if not please contact me again.
ATN International have supplied us with this letter from the CEO of ATN Night Vision Marc Vayn with reference to new ATN X Sight Day/Night riflescopes.
"We at ATN appreciate all the early adopters of our new XSight. The XSight is really like nothing we have ever developed! The sophistication of the Obsidian Core has offered us a world of possibilities never before witnessed in our industry.
It has also posed a series of challenges that we are working quickly to overcome.
One of these has been Reticle shifting out of view at high levels of zoom. First let me assure you this is NOT a hardware issue and will be resolved within the shortest time possible in the form of an updated firmware.
Part of the issue has arisen due to the fact that our engineers removed the original limitation of 4X digital (example 5-18). Instead the 5-18 is now 5-50. Our engineers felt that even at 50X - the resolution of the image was still good enough to provide additional detection. Unfortunately in the first release of our Reticle Zeroing we shifted the reticle by moving it on the screen reticle and thereby it would always be of center. This problem was then exacerbated by high zoom - in essence shifting the reticle up 10X the original Zeroing In. On weapons with more then just a minor shift from dead center this created a problem of having the reticle fly of the screen when zooming in.
Currently our engineers are working an a major update that will no longer shift the reticle but the entire screen behind the reticle - when finished no amount of zoom will move your reticle of center. The algorithms for this work have already been complete and only the testing and bug clean up remains. As an added bonus we will also be including a number of our early Smart Shooting Solutions into this version (Hint: think intelligent bullet drop compensation and much much more. )
Again, I would like to apologize from me and our development team for shipping the XSight with these types of issues.
We hope that our fixes and new features that are to be released throughout the year will make up for some initial difficulties."
Sincerely
Marc Vayn
CEO
ATN Corp



So more then likely there will be an update prior to shot show. I know they dont want to show off the device and have those questions arise at the show.

Last edited by cyberpyrot; 01/19/15 07:54 PM.

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Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: cyberpyrot] #5552116 01/19/15 08:00 PM
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My biggest issue is that ATN knowingly sold me a scope that they knew did not perform to their own published specs. To me that is a very dishonest and deceptive way to do business. No one likes to feel like they were tricked or deceived once the buy something. They should have stated that the scope was still in development and that any who bought it would be considered "early adopters". Even today their website leads you to believe all features are working 100% which we know is not true. If you look at the number of posters that have issues with their X-Sight compared to the number that don't it's easy to see that the ones with issues is a much larger number. The few that constantly defend ATN's practices are few and far between (some don't even own an X-Sight). So specifically my scope does not work properly on these features: (straight from the web site and also on the box)

GPS - not working
Geo Tagging - not working
Altitude - not working
Velocity - not working
E Compass - sort of works after installing 1.8...200 firmware
Image stabilization/gyroscope - hard to tell with the constant night flicker
Zoom - unusable,see below

Other issues:
To zero I had to move the reticle nearly off the screen (at 1x)
If I use the zoom at all the reticle moves off the screen
Constant flicker in night mode
Battery life is extremely short, around 30 mins for me even with Lithium batteries

It was nice that the CEO published a letter saying ATN would provide firmware that will (eventually) fix all the issues. How ever he did not address why they sold X-Sights with known issues without letting customers know. He also did not provide a timeline as to when the fixes will be available. His assumption that we all signed on to be "early adopters" is incorrect. Most if not all of us thought we were buying a scope that worked "as advertised".

If I am unhappy why don't I just return my X-sight? The retailer I purchased from (Optics Planet) said I have 30 days from receipt in which to return my scope. I received it on 12/29/14 so I have until Jan 29th. If ATN has not addressed my issues to my satisfaction by then I will return it. There are several post from those who have returned their X-Sight to ATN for repair and have not heard anything since they sent the scope back. I have no faith that if I sent mine to ATN that I would receive a working scope back in reasonable time frame. I am only willing to have my hard earned money tied up in a product that I can't use for a short time. If ATN can't make it right in that time frame then I will simply not be a customer.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: Oldsnipr] #5552136 01/19/15 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Oldsnpr
My biggest issue is that ATN knowingly sold me a scope that they knew did not perform to their own published specs. To me that is a very dishonest and deceptive way to do business. No one likes to feel like they were tricked or deceived once the buy something. They should have stated that the scope was still in development and that any who bought it would be considered "early adopters". Even today their website leads you to believe all features are working 100% which we know is not true. If you look at the number of posters that have issues with their X-Sight compared to the number that don't it's easy to see that the ones with issues is a much larger number. The few that constantly defend ATN's practices are few and far between (some don't even own an X-Sight). So specifically my scope does not work properly on these features: (straight from the web site and also on the box)

GPS - not working
Geo Tagging - not working
Altitude - not working
Velocity - not working
E Compass - sort of works after installing 1.8...200 firmware
Image stabilization/gyroscope - hard to tell with the constant night flicker
Zoom - unusable,see below

Other issues:
To zero I had to move the reticle nearly off the screen (at 1x)
If I use the zoom at all the reticle moves off the screen
Constant flicker in night mode
Battery life is extremely short, around 30 mins for me even with Lithium batteries

It was nice that the CEO published a letter saying ATN would provide firmware that will (eventually) fix all the issues. How ever he did not address why they sold X-Sights with known issues without letting customers know. He also did not provide a timeline as to when the fixes will be available. His assumption that we all signed on to be "early adopters" is incorrect. Most if not all of us thought we were buying a scope that worked "as advertised".

If I am unhappy why don't I just return my X-sight? The retailer I purchased from (Optics Planet) said I have 30 days from receipt in which to return my scope. I received it on 12/29/14 so I have until Jan 29th. If ATN has not addressed my issues to my satisfaction by then I will return it. There are several post from those who have returned their X-Sight to ATN for repair and have not heard anything since they sent the scope back. I have no faith that if I sent mine to ATN that I would receive a working scope back in reasonable time frame. I am only willing to have my hard earned money tied up in a product that I can't use for a short time. If ATN can't make it right in that time frame then I will simply not be a customer.



ok now that you have that off your chest lets move forward.. No one is defending them. I have issues with my scope as well altho I was able to hunt successfully with it. I know crying about it every 3rd post will not fix those issues. I decided to shut the hell up and wait for the firmware that is supposed to come soon this thread getting as bad the facebook page.


I'm a terrible shot but I follow up with a grenade!
Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: cyberpyrot] #5552165 01/19/15 08:23 PM
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I am waiting too but there is a limit to how long I am prepared to wait. Is it too much to ask for ATN to give us at least some target dates for new firmware release? Just saying "soon" or "we're working on it" tells me nothing about when I will get it. I also hope they will actually document any new firmware as to what it is supposed to fix and/or add to the scope, I have not seen any documentation on the releases so far so it's hard to know what should be working or not.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: cyberpyrot] #5552171 01/19/15 08:24 PM
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CAREFUL - Firmware rollback:

I agree that rollback should be an option.

With that said I believe ATN is developing a whole new base software program (2.0) therefore if you attempt to rollback to a 1.8 (or pre-existing base software) the results could be highly detrimental.

So once the next few firmwares roll out, watch the pre-cursor numbers to see if they change and my advice is to only attempt rollback if A) you're willing to brick your scope and B) you are rolling back to a previous version on the same base software platform.

Hope you guys can squash the non-topic related back and forth because it reminds me of 3 previous threads

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5552183 01/19/15 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
CAREFUL - Firmware rollback:

I agree that rollback should be an option.

With that said I believe ATN is developing a whole new base software program (2.0) therefore if you attempt to rollback to a 1.8 (or pre-existing base software) the results could be highly detrimental.

So once the next few firmwares roll out, watch the pre-cursor numbers to see if they change and my advice is to only attempt rollback if A) you're willing to brick your scope and B) you are rolling back to a previous version on the same base software platform.

Hope you guys can squash the non-topic related back and forth because it reminds me of 3 previous threads





Good advise. I was wondering about the upcoming 2. firmware being compatable but kept quite until you mentioned it. Very good point.

Last edited by Shadow357x2; 01/19/15 08:31 PM.
Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: Oldsnipr] #5552189 01/19/15 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Oldsnpr

To zero I had to move the reticle nearly off the screen (at 1x)
If I use the zoom at all the reticle moves off the screen


If it's that bad, your mount can't be straight. Might be worth checking...

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: cyberpyrot] #5552198 01/19/15 08:38 PM
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My mount is straight as best I can tell. I just have basic measuring tools but it seems to be straight.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: Oldsnipr] #5552200 01/19/15 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: Oldsnpr
My mount is straight as best I can tell. I just have basic measuring tools but it seems to be straight.


The mounts that were off didn't need tools to see that it was way off.

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: HuntTXhogs] #5552210 01/19/15 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: HuntTXhogs
[color:#FF0000]Hope you guys can squash the non-topic related back and forth because it reminds me of 3 previous threads


Yes... up

Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: Shadow357x2] #5552213 01/19/15 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Shadow357x2
[quote=HuntTXhogs]CAREFUL - Firmware rollback:

I agree that rollback should be an option.

With that said I believe ATN is developing a whole new base software program (2.0) therefore if you attempt to rollback to a 1.8 (or pre-existing base software) the results could be highly detrimental.


Yep, I wondered about that myself. Firmware change either way can brick a device. The only difference is that updates are less likely to brick it than rollback, simply because they have to test the latest build to ensure it works. If it's going to brick, it'll brick one of the Mfg's devices, and they won't release.

Rollbacks can be unpredictable as well. That's part of the deployment strategy. Key to all of this that the Mfg needs to be hyper-vigilant for the first 24-48 hrs after releasing a new firmware version. That's the most likely time for major problems, device bricks, bugs, etc will be found.

Some software companies have their software devs on the clock literally 24-48 hrs straight, after a major firmware release, to ensure if a major problem happens, they can identify it and yank the update down quickly, then post either a rollback or a fixed update very soon. How a company handles a botched update can make or break a product. Any response taking longer than 48 hrs tends to generate a tidal wave of negative press. This thread alone shows how fast it can happen.

I'm saying all this for the customer's benefit, because this is stuff ATN needs to think about.

Customer tip: It's not a bad idea to sometimes wait 2-3 days after a firmware update release, just to see if it's stable. smile

EDIT: removed references to "scope", and changed it to "devices", since this is pretty universal. I've never heard of X-sights getting bricked, and I sincerely hope I never do. smile

Last edited by MoShootr; 01/19/15 08:47 PM.

"Being Right, and being Reasonable, are not automatically synonymous." - Me
Re: ATN X-Sight 5X18 -- 3X12--- ( Owners Discussion) [Re: krmitchell] #5552214 01/19/15 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: rexmitchell
Originally Posted By: Oldsnpr
My mount is straight as best I can tell. I just have basic measuring tools but it seems to be straight.


The mounts that were off didn't need tools to see that it was way off.



Actually that is only half true. There are many out there that are off just a hair and cant be seen by the naked eye. I have seen 3 that were of by .10 up to .024. Down range that is a big difference. Mine for exaple was off x=.022 y=.003
If you have a bore sighter (laser) mount the scope and you will see how far off they are from center bore. If you know how to correct it then do it, if not I would say send it back.

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