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Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
#3062466
03/04/12 07:31 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 377
silverphoenix
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I've seen a lot of people doing duracoating and camo dipping in the classified section. I know a couple have FFL's, but I doubt most have a license.
Do you need a license/FFL to do this? From what I'm reading here, if you don't have an FFL, it is illegal to alter someone else's firearm in any way for profit...
u.s. Departmenot f Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Fireanns and Explosives Office of the Director Washington. DC 20226 18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(I)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED 18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED 27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS 27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED Any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes afirearm's appearance, by camouflaging afirearm by painting, dipping, or applying tape, or by engraving the external surface of a firearm, does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person who is licensed as a dealer/gzlnsmith, and who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act. A TF Rut. 2009-1 The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (A TF) has received inquiries from Federally licensed manufacturers and dealers/gunsmiths seeking clarification as to whether camouflaging firearms, or cutting designs into firearms by engraving, constitute manufacturing activities that require a manufacturer's license. Camouflaging refers to a patterned treatment using a variety of different colors that enables a firearm to blend into a particular outdoor environment. This typically involves painting, dipping, or applying a tape over the firearm's wood and/or metal parts. Engraving firearms is a process in which a decorative pattern is placed on the external metal of a firearm primarily for ornamental purposes. The engraving can be cut by hand or machine, or pressed into the metal. There are other engraving techniques that cut designs into firearms, such as checkering or scalloping. The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (V.S.C.), Chapter 44, provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. A "firearm" is defined by 18 V.S.C. 92 I (a)(3) to include any weapon ~:including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted -2- to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon. The term "manufacturer" is defined by 18 V.S.C. 921(a)(IO) and 27 CFR 478.11 as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution. The term "dealer," which includes a gunsmith, is defined by 18 V.S.C. 921(a)(II) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, or repairing firearms or making or fitting special barrels, ~;tocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms. In Revenue Ruling 55-342, ATF's predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms "manufacturer" and "dealer" for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer's license. Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term "manufacturer" under the GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution. Performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Unlike manufacturing processes that primarily enhance a firearm's durability, camouflaging is primarily cosmetic. Likewise, external engravings are cosmetic in nature and primarily affect only the appearance of a firearm. Held, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes a firearm's appearance by camouflaging the firearm by painting, dipping, or applying tape does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Held further, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes a firearm's appearance by engraving the external surface of the firearm does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Held further, any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and who camouflages or engraves fireanns as described in this ruling does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or -3 engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: silverphoenix]
#3062481
03/04/12 08:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 571
wchamilton
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sounds like only if they do it in camo
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: silverphoenix]
#3062640
03/04/12 02:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,309
PrimitiveHunter
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That's our government in action for you. It's all right to buy all sorts of camo or other modified parts and it's all right to order a specialized stock from Boyds and use these parts to change your guns appearance by modifying your weapon. But it's against the law for me to buy a can spray paint a camo and apply a pattern on my own gun's existing parts. Pure genius.
Practice doesn’t make perfect. Practice makes permanent.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#3062690
03/04/12 03:13 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4,243
DallasShootingSupplies
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Yes, you absolutely need one to do a gun without question.
You could do barrels and stock etc, but nothing that involves the serialized receiver without a license.
Heck even an 01FFL can only do them for their customers. An 01 can't buy an old gun and coat it to resell. Thats manufacturing and they need an 07.
Last edited by DallasShootingSupplies; 03/04/12 03:17 PM.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: DallasShootingSupplies]
#3063547
03/05/12 12:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,202
timbertoes
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I think it has to do with keeping overnight, a gun that does not belong to you. or something to that effect.
Forum says "Veteran Tracker". I could not track a garbage truck into a fireworks factory.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: timbertoes]
#3063640
03/05/12 01:29 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,309
PrimitiveHunter
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I think it has to do with keeping overnight, a gun that does not belong to you. or something to that effect. I don't see where it says anything about someone else's gun. They way I read it is that I can't spray paint on my own gun.
Practice doesn’t make perfect. Practice makes permanent.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#3063815
03/05/12 02:32 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,060
Ross Precision Gunworks
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This is correct. You have to have a license for this. I have tried to politely warn those on here who are doing this but they don't think they are doing anything wrong. I guess they will have to learn for themselves the hard way. I just hope they don't get in too much trouble. More people than you think monitor these sites.
Chuck Ross
"Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas" � "Often Tested, Always Faithful, Brothers Forever" � United States Marines
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: Ross Precision Gunworks]
#3063848
03/05/12 02:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,859
Fastscooby01
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I've heard rumors that someone in the DFW area got nailed by the ATF for duracoating not too long ago. Not sure if its true or not but thats what I heard.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: Ross Precision Gunworks]
#3063853
03/05/12 02:43 AM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,444
beaucfus
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like dallas S.S. said, anything with serial numbers on it.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: beaucfus]
#3064019
03/05/12 03:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,947
TurkeyHunter
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You can paint your own rifle pink if you want no problem.
To be determined
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: beaucfus]
#3064035
03/05/12 04:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,224
Grizz
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading, but I don't interpret that to say I can't camo my own gun, just not others for money.
Quote: "Any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includesa gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act."
I would interpret "in the business of" to mean doing it for others and being paid.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: Grizz]
#3064176
03/05/12 05:12 AM
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,099
devildog28
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Isn't there a part of the law that states doing it infrequently as a hobby or for friends is ok?
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: devildog28]
#3064207
03/05/12 05:35 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 377
silverphoenix
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Bird Dog
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I think basically as long as you're not doing it for profit, it's ok? I'm not for sure, so I thought I'd ask. I don't see any problems with working on your own guns--just gets very grey when dealing with other people's guns. I'd just hate for some kids to get hauled to jail for this and then guns from unwitting "customers" getting seized by the ATF But if they've been warned, then I guess they've already had their chance...
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: silverphoenix]
#3064255
03/05/12 07:11 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,932
Alan D
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Never heard of this law but sounds like they want to be able to monitor anyone doing gun work for profit, as a business. Guess that makes sense, more government control...
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: Alan D]
#3064418
03/05/12 01:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,093
rebelguns
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I have read this letter and do not feel that I am breaking any laws by offering duracoat services to those on the forum. I am not a business, do not intend to be a business and do not portray myself as a business. In many cases I do not even keep the serially controlled portion of the firearm and require the firearm to be disassembled by the owner upon drop off or before drop off since I am not a gunsmith and do will not take that liability. The only ones that I have gotten any flak from about this are those that feel they are losing business because of the "favor" that I am doing for people. I as for a VERY low amount as I would any friend of mine that would as me to do this for them and I barely make anything off of these after everything is considered. I do this as a hobby and something as therapy for myself (ptsd), I will not be doing this for ever nor do I plan on getting into the business of it. I accept trades and barter with people that want to barter for services since it is not about the $$ for me. If need be under the law I could "buy" the firearm from the person and "sell" it back to them if I have to paint a serially controlled part or entire gun. I appreciate those that have shown sincere concern for me by informing me of the possibility of being in violation of this rule but I feel that I am not in violation at this time. Furthermore I have sent an email to the ATF to clarify this further and will update this thread upon response for those that would like to offer this to anyone else in the future.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: PrimitiveHunter]
#3064493
03/05/12 02:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,202
timbertoes
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I think it has to do with keeping overnight, a gun that does not belong to you. or something to that effect. I don't see where it says anything about someone else's gun. They way I read it is that I can't spray paint on my own gun. I figure its like this (not going to try and read ALL the documents out there, doesn't apply to me) what is posted here is sub-section of rules/regs. peratining to folks who take in other guns for work. Find the "top-most" section of regs and likely thats where this starts from.
Forum says "Veteran Tracker". I could not track a garbage truck into a fireworks factory.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: timbertoes]
#3064502
03/05/12 02:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,202
timbertoes
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Rebel, anytime you offer services and take in cash, then there is a point at which you legally have to report/charge and file sales tax. A reason I no longer am involved in Calls or photography. My wife makes gourds. She has a sales tax use permit and files.
Forum says "Veteran Tracker". I could not track a garbage truck into a fireworks factory.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: timbertoes]
#3064558
03/05/12 02:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,093
rebelguns
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I stand corrected and will address this accordingly. I just got off the phone with the ATF and they stated that receiving payment for any service is considered a "business". The agent also informed me that there is really "nothing to be worried about" in my case unless the firearm turned up at a crime scene and even then its not something that would be "serious" on my end.
I was wrong and I will take the necessary measure to correct this. Thanks to all for the concern.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: rebelguns]
#3064731
03/05/12 03:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 14,768
jeh7mmmag
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gramps
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�Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul.� ~ John Muir
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: rebelguns]
#3065091
03/05/12 05:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,101
Colt W. Knight
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I stand corrected and will address this accordingly. I just got off the phone with the ATF and they stated that receiving payment for any service is considered a "business". The agent also informed me that there is really "nothing to be worried about" in my case unless the firearm turned up at a crime scene and even then its not something that would be "serious" on my end.
I was wrong and I will take the necessary measure to correct this. Thanks to all for the concern. Glad to hear you are getting that worked out.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: Colt W. Knight]
#3065100
03/05/12 05:04 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,100
dgilbert
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This will be address(changes) here on the forum in the near future.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: dgilbert]
#3065120
03/05/12 05:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,093
rebelguns
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Just remember there are always ways around things and loop holes. I have already found a way to make it work but I just dont want to deal with it, Ill just get my FFL.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: rebelguns]
#3065318
03/05/12 06:15 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4,243
DallasShootingSupplies
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Just remember there are always ways around things and loop holes. I have already found a way to make it work but I just dont want to deal with it, Ill just get my FFL. Good call. The ATF has too much grey area to play around with. Especially with us being in a border state. More scrutiny on our region. Edit: Coating was the original reason we got our FFL as well.
Last edited by DallasShootingSupplies; 03/05/12 06:17 PM.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: dgilbert]
#3065374
03/05/12 06:27 PM
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Joined: May 2009
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DallasShootingSupplies
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This will be address(changes) here on the forum in the near future. Good idea, would suck for someone to get in alot of trouble. There was a recent high profile case that was discussed at great length on several gun boards. A guy from El Paso was making only 600ish a year doing stuff that was considered a dealer. He got in a world of trouble, tons of legal fees, and even jail time if I remember right. All because he didn't have his FFL. So how little you do it means nothing in the laws eyes, if you charge for it. Its a business, period.
Last edited by DallasShootingSupplies; 03/05/12 06:28 PM.
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Re: Painting is Considered Gunsmithing? Referring to Classifieds
[Re: timbertoes]
#3130262
04/01/12 03:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,672
Ox190
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Rebel, anytime you offer services and take in cash, then there is a point at which you legally have to report/charge and file sales tax. A reason I no longer am involved in Calls or photography. My wife makes gourds. She has a sales tax use permit and files. Always wondered why you stopped making calls. Talked about you last night, I have a buddy wanting to start doing some lathe work and I said "There was this guy on the hunting forum that made some awesome calls he sold made out of all kinds of wood. But he just stopped selling them a few years back."
"There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre." Louis L'Amour
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