This weekend steeled my resolve in regards to the BS AR law....

I had a doe come running across the pipeline late Friday afternoon. This section of right-of-way is about 35yds wide, and less than 50yds from my stand. She had a 6 point right behind her. Then a smaller deer, appeared to be a spike, came out. I pulled the rifle up on him to make sure he wasn't a spike we'd been wanting to get off the place. It wasn't, turned out to be a really weird little 5 point we've been seeing. So then i hear another deer coming thru the woods. It busts out of the treeline, and it's a decent 8 point. he stops in the open for a second, I get the rifle on him, and can see he has about 10" G2's, and good mass. But he's facing straight ahead, quartered to me, with his head down, so i can't see truly how wide he is. He then trots across the pipeline and stops to put in nose on the ground to see where the doe went. He is now facing almost directly away from me, but his body is blocking any good view of the rack. He walks about 30-40' with his nose on the ground, turns broadside to me, then picks up his head and looks into the woods where the doe went. At this point I have seen enough to be 99% sure he's gonna be legal. He was mature, had good tine length, and good mass. So as I pull the hammer back on my Encore he bolts into the woods.

So I'm sitting there, let the hammer off on the Encore, and I'm cussing AR's under my breath. About 2 minutes later, I hear BOOOMMMMM from the direction my cousin hunts. His stand is about 300yds thru some thick woods from mine. I text him, "did ya shoot the 8 point", "is he on the ground?". He answers, "not on the ground, he was running".

So now I'm really PO'd. I tried to do the right thing and missed an opportunity on killing the buck, only to have another hunter, who is fairly experienced, take a pot shot at the same buck w/o even trying to judge it. So i text back, "did he stop so you could make sure he was legal?" Response was, "not really, but he looked decent". I think he got my point right then.

Turns out, he either missed the buck, or the 300mag with 180 gr bullet did not exit. I suspect the former. So the deer is still running around, hopefully, and maybe I'll get another shot at him or another nice(r) buck in coming weeks. It just sucks, because I would have been proud to take this buck, and missed an opportunity on a mature buck because I had to try and make sure he wasn't 12.5" wide. And by the time I did, I had exhausted all of the time he'd given me to shoot him by force-ably judging him. I could have had a bullet in him 2-3 different times, but he just would not give me a look at the spread.



I never liked it when TPWD forced us into their BS herd management. Now I hate it. I have a plan in case this ever happens again in the future. Probably not best for me to discuss that here though. We have always tried to make sure any buck we took was minimum 3.5 years old. I liked to take 4.5 years olds myself. I haven't taken but 1 buck in the last 5 years due to this management strategy. So I/we certainly didn't need TPWD forcing their elitist carp down our throats.

I agree. The TPWD needs to somehow modify the current AR guidelines so that hunters will can take mature bucks without regard to spread. The current AR were "supposedly" meant to increase the average age of bucks. If that's so, I feel other factors such as main beam and tine lengths should also be used so that hunters could take older deer that are otherwise being passed up, or worse, being left behind for the buzzards. Like yourself, if I see a buck with tines that appear a foot long, I'll probably want shoot him without seeing the spread.

But unfortunately, the TPWD doesn't appear ready to budge largely due to their belief that most hunters are not capable of using these other attributes to estimate age.

The complaint is "I've gotta take time to judge the spread" and your solution is to modify the law and ask guys to be able to accurately judge age/maturity?

Yes. The TPWD has only given us one guideline to estimate age. If other factors exist, why not allow hunters to use them as well.

I used to hunt in East Texas. This was BEFORE Antler Restrictions.

BEFORE : It could be months before I saw a decent buck! Everyone was shooting anything with horns.

AFTER : I would regulary see bucks of all ages. I"ve even had my fair share of Bucks that I've shot. I think Antler Restrictions are WORKING GREAT.

If you don't like them, get on the MLD Program. But there are a lot of hunters that will shoot anything with brown fur before looking. I like Antler restrictions for the fact it forces people to slow down and look at what they are shooting.

I'm currently on a lease that has a 16" Rule. So far its working out and people aren't shooting small bucks.

MLD, kill more doe......all BS....it shouldn't come down to that. The 13" AR rule is horrible.

There's no question that AR's have improved the overall quality of bucks in East Texas.

However, following a single, forward-facing guideline has made it more difficult for hunters to take deer that satisfy the older age class the restrictions were designed to increase.

Adding a guideline that would allow hunters to estimate age class from a side-facing view would be a good thing.

Case in point. This weekend I watched two bucks pass by me chasing a doe and obviously, neither buck was going to stop and offer me a facing view. In this case, a side-facing guideline would have been a good thing.

Thats hunting. I am loving the ARs its already showing real promise in parker county.

How about as long as the antlers are within an inch of being even with the ears in the alert position. At least it's a little give or take that way.

I would like to point out that around our area in ETX there were bucks of all age classes preARs & there are are still bucks around of all ages postARs. I do find it easier to age bucks that are dogging the does over getting spread estimates. I'm not whistling at the deer either for it to look my way (to see spread) to tell a 4.5+yo deer where I am so it can get stored in their memory; might be the last time that deer is ever seen if you spook him.

It depends on how you view hunting opportunities. I suspect many like AR's because it keeps hunters from shooting deer so they can shoot them.

I prefer restrictions that create more opportunities for ANY hunter to take deer that satisfy the target age class.

Where is this lease? The reasons you are seeing better deer is because people like physo are following the law and the buck harvest is down. The state needs to come up with something other than 13" only. After all it is not like you can ask the deer to stop while you take a measurement.

Genius.

Talked to my local GW this weekend about AR's, he stops by from time to time just to bs. He said he has only written 2 tickets so far this year for AR's. He agrees that from a management standpoint AR's are not perfect but the law is the law. Said he had a lot of folks email him pics of big mature deer that might or might not make AR's. He said he can't by law tell someone they can break the law. But it was nice to hear him say "he feels our pain"...

Well I admit AR's aren't perfect but I am an unabashed suppoter of them and am thankful TPWD had the guts to implement them in my county. I made a considerable investment in land 7 years ago (pre ARs) with the hope of someday having a decent place to deer hunt by managing the does and taking it easy on the bucks. The single greatest thing to assist me in that regard was the implementation of ARs-of that I have no doubt. I went from seeing a lot of does and goathead 1 1/2 year olds to having a really great place to hunt-well beyond what I could have imagined. If I have to pass up a good buck every once in a while for those benefits I'll gladly do it.At least now there are good bucks to look at.

There is no perfect system so you might as well quit searching for it.(If you think putting some sort of criteria to ensure age is the answer just wait till you see the confusion and chaos that would cause in real implementation of that. Hint:tine and beam length are no more age correlative than spread.)

This system is a VAST improvement over the old one for my money.

Seems like once a buck "matures" in my neck of the woods they become 99% nocturnal. No wonder East Texas sells so many spotlights!

What county do you hunt in?

I think the AR argument needs to be started with what county, because antlers/deer/hunters in SE Texas are vastly different than NE Texas


I hunt some in Red River, and am around a bunch of Fannin County, and I think they are ridiculous, and a total failure in those places.

I think the jury is still out in Archer Co; and I wish we had them in Foard County.

Out East Texas bucks act weird I guess, crazy concept but it seems to work. Many times I have bucks in my shooting lane which is only 6-7 yards wide and 200 yards long. When they are not looking or do not offer a adequate look at their spread, we just grunt or wheeze. Funny thing is, I have never spooked a deer using this technique and they always seem to look in the FULLY ALERT position. Now I am not defending AR's, I am just stating that they are useful and there are many ways especially at 50 yards to get a bucks attention. Perferably with the cross hairs already aligned.

I like being able to decide for myself what deer I want to shoot, regardless of whether it is 13 inches wide or not. It should be the hunter's choice. I liked the old ways because I like my freedom, especially when I hunt.

Big Brother knows a hell of lot more about deer and finances than the common folk. Have you not heard?

Maybe he will spread his seed around more since you never killed him and years down the road you or your kid, grandkids might take one of his offspring. Its kinda like paying it forward, don't look at the negative side of the situation, everything happens for a reason. I will tell you this there are places now that we get to enjoy watching young bucks running around now that the AR rule is in place, thats half the fun of hunting, actually seeing deer, back 10 years ago you wouldn't see any deer on stand... period. They are for the greater good, and teaches some of us patience.

This. Its not that hard to get a good look at a deer. A rabbit farts and they pick their head up and look around.
AR's = weening people off killing baby deer all their life..

But go ahead and make it legal to kill a young spike as an extra buck = idiocracy. Your "AR's = weening people off killing baby deer all their life" statement holds no water and that would be the TP&W's doings.

Supposedly spikes are frowned upon at a management standpoint and I agree with sig fan its definitley different for each county/region and I believe the law probably can be tweaked but no tweaking of the law will ever make everybody happy. Why do you hate the law curly?

I have stated my many reasons in the past....been back and forth with AR promoters and nothing has worked....I continue to hate them with a passion. My dad quit hunting for fear of shooting an illegal buck being the main reason plus I think that having to look at a buck's head bones long and hard enough in the woods at distances to make sure it will go 13" is total bullsh. Antler width (especially in East Texas) does not constitute a buck's maturity a lot of the time. It just constitutes a pretty buck. ARs won't make me quit deer hunting though. Some folks fuss about certain traffic laws yet they keep driving, kinda the same thing.