Ahhhh, I see a trend here.....

I am not trying to define hunting just commenting on AR and why we have to have. I don't like AR but it seems needed do to certain attitudes out there. If your definition is it is ok to shoot immature bucks just to shoot a buck then they are different and you might be part of the reason we have AR. Shoot mature bucks and there is no need. Why don't you tell me the logic in shooting a 2.5 year old 13 inch 8 point. I doubt your going to mount it, maybe nail horns above your garage. Doe taste better. Let them get big. Is that complicated. I guess it is easier to shoot the first thing you see.

I dont have a tooth in my head(now theres a picture huh!) and anybody who eats deer will tell ya a old mature buck is like chewin shoe leather! I like a younger more tender deer for the obvious reasons. Yeah i know, shoot a doe! Well tpw pretty much screwed that up too by letting our doe population get wiped out in the 4 yrs of ar rules and bag limits. We are going to loose more and more young hunters with ar unless we all win the lottery or got rich dads and moms who can afford to take the kids to the high dollar leases. My dad wont hunt anymore and neither will the kids because we see so few deer anymore because tpw thinks we need to be able to kill 4 deer instead of 1 and every doe they shoot is making it happen all the quicker! I used to be able to see deer almost everytime i hunted my property now im lucky to see a deer and after 4yrs of ar havent seen 1 legal buck this year and no does at all. I know all countys are different and thats ok but tpwd should do a little more research on deer numbers before they make bag limits for each co. Let me ask all you ar lovers a serios question, Wich would you prefer? Going hunting and see a good number of does and small bucks and every once in a while a deer that might be a shooter and legally be able to kill 1 deer, big or small, your choice and have the fun of seeing deer or like it is now after 4yrs of ar rules and 4 deer bag limits and not see any deer in close to a month of hunting, no big deer or small because all the does are shot and the spikes and nuthin left to shoot! Dont want any smart azzz replys just honest responce to the problem we have here and a few surrounding countys. My daughter and my dad and my son wont hunt anymore cause they dont want to sit for days on end and not even see a deer and thats what makes me the maddest of all.

I see deer almost every time out and we have been under AR for more than 4 years. Saw 7 yesterday, and around lunch time today saw a nice tall 8 point and about 20 does along the dirt road. So I like AR's.

Helo thats great and like i said each county is different and thats my point tpwd needs to do more research! And you didnt answer my question about the state of hunting around my place, really only one answer if ya really like to see and hunt deer, ar rules aint working here! I got no problem with people wanting bigger deer as long as it aint at the expensece of the rest of us that just want to see some deer.

Oh. Yeah if they aren't working in areas they should remove them. Or at least lower the bag limits, heck I would love to see lower bag limits here, even though we are seeing deer.

I don't know the situation in your county or your area. I grew up in East Texas and hunted one of the best looking properties you could find. At that time doe "permits" were hard to come by. Only issued to the landowner and had to be issued by him. In addition nobody wanted to shoot doe. If it had horns however it got shot. Guy that owned the place shot a 10 point that would probably score 135. The Newspaper came out and took pictures and everybody in town rushed to his shop to see. Reffered to it as a buck of a lifetime. This was in 1985. Now on just about any property that is managed at all you can get a 135 inch buck.I think that is an improvement. The alternative was an area like llano at that time the deer were the size of goats and everywhere. I think hunting in Texas is the best I have seen. I do not think AR is a perfect fix but in alot of areas its needed. In the long run it will limit potential. Just because you have a certain amount of tags does not mean you should use them. Some properties cannot take that type of pressure. As I mentioned earlier MLD is great or a landowner taking control of a situation to prevent overharvest, underharvest, bad management practice, etc. I get excited about the chance at a big deer and am ok with seeing less. I am lucky to hunt a property where you rarely see nothing but we have put alot of effort into it.

Yep thats my point, would rather see more smaller bucks and more does than nuthin at all. It really upsets me that my family wont hunt anymore because of the lack of deer. My daughter shot a 5pt 5yrs ago with me and was one of the most memorable days of my life and now thats over and will never have another one of huntin deer with her because of ar. May sound corny to some but im serious as a heart attack!

Killemall you didnt answer the question either in my post, you cant tell me you would rather not see any deer at all over seeing more small bucks and does when hunting. Nobody is willing to answer that question honestly to me. Nobody wants to hunt for weeks on end and not see any deer as compared to seeing plenty of does and small bucks but few big bucks but at least you see deer. If its working were you hunt then im trully happy foy ya but it aint here. Also you are right about 1 thing, just cause you have 4 tags dont mean you have to use em but alot of people will just because they can! TPWD needs to do more research and limit the number of deer taken in some countys and increase the number in other countys.

Oh, that is the question you meant. Didn't mean to not answer was just not sure what question. I would rather see deer, than not see deer.

Thanx helo. Thats all it boils down to at my place and nuthin has changed, same neighbors all the way around me the only thing that changed was the rules and bag limit so dont know what else to blame it on. Always killed a deer every year for over 20yrs and along comes AR and new bag limit, now havent killed a deer for 2yrs straight and not lookin good this year either.

But would you be okay with AR's if the bag limit was reduced?

Hoytman, I like to see deer, I agree that if it is not working in your county then it should be looked at. I do not know the process that the state uses for evaluating limits on a county by county basis but they should be proactive. We are MLD, based on conditions, rain, forage, fawn crop, our limits are adjusted yearly. On 1300 acreas we have taken as many as 14 doe and as few as 8 depending on what is going on. I truly believe that in the end it is up to land owners to take control of their situations to protect the herd on their property. Just because someone leases it does not mean they can shoot the hell out of a place. It is very simple to put conditions in a lease and to throw someone out who is not following rules.And it is a shame that you have a bad situation with your property right now, I think hunting is one of the best family activities there is and it is impossible to have a kid see nothing time and time again and want to keep at it. Stinks for grown ups as well.

Helo i would be ok with that if they would lower the bag limit to say 2 deer, 1 buck and maybe a doe during bow season like it used to be and im sure the numbers would rebound. If they would also change the buck tag to spike or 13in. or greater not both. Dont think it will ever happen because i have talked to the warden and a biologist in hopkins co. and neither thought there was a problem.

First happy birthday.

I would like to see one buck one doe with no doe season. Let the doe be shot anytime during the hunting season. I would not mind leaving the 13" or spike, just have to pick one or the other, that would be fine by me.

Thanks on the happy birthday! My 50th but how did ya know? We both got something in common on the bag limits. I would love that!

DUH didnt see the icon. my bad.

LMAO, yeah the icon gave it away.

Ya know as long as i have been on the forum you would think i would have spotted that. Oh well i am gettin old.

That is funny, can't believe you never noticed that before.

My view on AR's;

If everyone adheres to the law, I can see the idea of it being a good thing to a point. But.......

One problem is, in east Tx where the law is now in effect on a large scale, there are still way too many people who can, and sometimes will, shoot a buck, doe, or otherwise illegal deer and take it to the house for processing. Thus it never even sees a public road. Yes, this is poaching, and this is the battle that has been fought in E. Tx for as long as TPWD has regulated hunting in the state.

Then there's the fact that a lot of properties in E. Tx have several family members that hunt them, where more of the land in the Hill Country and S. Tx is lease land and managed better. This lends itself to more of the mature bucks and spikes being killed, leaving more doe! And that's a best case scenario, leaving out the poaching aspect I spoke of above.

Now they also let us kill two bucks, one spike and one buck over 13". This is ridiculous when they won't let us take at least an equal number of doe. I can see the buck to doe ratio getting out of whack really quick. Sure, everyone enjoys going out to the stand and seeing more numbers. But when those numbers are 80% or more doe, what's the point when you can't kill them? Now the mature deer we're supposed to be hunting no longer have to show themselves during the rut because there's hot does everywhere. And then there will be no way they can breed all those doe in the first or even the second breeding cycle. So now the fawn crop for the next year is going to have a higher % of spike/button bucks. These bucks will be shot for meat or because they will be the only legal bucks that a lot of hunters see in a season.

I'm not against implementing some sort of management in E. Tx. It is sorely needed. We hunt a small piece of family property, and it's hunted by more people than it should be. But we are all very conscious of the total number of deer taken each year, and the age of those deer as well. We now see better deer, and more deer because of it. But we still only get one doe permit a year. So we see 10 or more doe to every buck. That's out of whack, way out! But there's nothing we can do, legaly, to fix this. The only thing is to hit them hard during bow season and decimate the doe population for a couple of years. But then if the adjacent lands aren't doing the same thing what have we gained? Nothing if they're letting them walk.

I'm not one to gripe without having an idea for solving the problem myself....
The "Jay Management Plan":
*Outlaw shooting bucks for three years, or until the herd ratio is seen to be corrected.
*Let everyone in these counties have one doe each for meat during this time. Properties that meet the criteria would get more doe permits through the LAMPS program.
*The bucks in the herd would then get age and the ratio would be brought closer to where it needed to be.
*Then go to a 1 buck 1 doe season across east Tx (Let the would be poachers who kill the undersized buck for meat have a doe instead).
*Make it so hunters must kill a doe before they can shoot a buck.
*The buck must have a 13" spread or at least one tine over 8" long.
*Add a spike only late season, spikes to be killed only during this time, not during the regular season (This way anyone who needs the meat can kill it if they didn't get a buck during the regular season).

Please, point out any holes in this plan?


It's very easy for hunters in the Hill Country and S. Tx to be on board with the AR plan, especially when it doesn't effect them. But there are inherent problems to the E. Tx region that need to be addressed with a viable solution that makes the practices of a large number of landowners legal, while addressing the desire to see the herd get more age. The current AR program falls way short of that IMO.

Jay

Not following you, we can take 2 does and 2 bucks in our county.

Happy birthday Hoytman!!! I wish they would get rid of ARs for your birthday!

How's your buck to doe ratio?

We have no doe days, and doe are by permit only during regular season (Freestone County). Permits are per LAMPS coordinator's discretion (depends on habitat and acreage). We are eligible for one permit a year. It seems that over eight acres of spring and fall food plots aren't enough to even get us a second permit.

I know a lot of counties now have doe days. And that's great for those counties. We have none, and I can count at least 6-8 doe on every hunt. Often more than 10. Maybe a buck or two, maybe, and they're juveniles most of the time.

That sucks, why would they not have any doe days?

Before season started it looked like my ratio was spot on, but now I am not seeing hardly any bucks. Our doe days last year were only during Thanksgiving weekend, but this year it last about a month. Which IMO it should last the whole season, what difference does it make when they are killed?