think the 13 inch rule is a good idea ? 13 inch rule

do you think the 13 inch rule is working ? do you see more big bucks now that the 13 inch rule has been in effect what 3 years now ? Do you see more or less deer than you did 3 years ago ?

I think its a good idea, stops folks from just shooting whatever comes out...and no, we are still building our herd..but its looking better

I think the 13 inch rule is a good idea. Where we hunt this is the first year with the AR so we cant see a difference yet

I like the 13-inch rule. The "no-doe" rule is what I can't figure out.

I think we are finally starting to see a difference on my place. We have shot 2 8 points and one 12 point that had split G-1's. Other guys have seen a big 10 pt but haven't gotten a shot at it.

My dad has hunted this property since the mid 80's and I think the last 10 pt was shot in 93.

I have mixed feeling about about the 13" rule. This is the first year it has been in effect for Parker and Wise County where I hunt. I realize that most deer harvested are 1 1/2 years old and wearing their first set of antlers. By harvesting these young bucks we will never see what their potential could have been. I agree that we should let them grow. In Keith Warren's video Managing for Trophy Whitetails on small property he says that by the time a buck is 2 1/2 years old he should be outside his ears. Im my experience this is rarley so. In 2006 I took a very tall and heavy 8 point that was 4 1/2 and he is only 12" inside. I've never had him scored so I dont know what he measures. A friend on mine says he is probably around 130". So this is the down side of the rule. What about all those bucks that are mature but never make it to 13" inside? To me it seems more logical to age deer on the hoof and harvest mature bucks.

i had a poll about this the other day. about 75% of people that had been under ARs for at least 3 years said that they have seen an improvement in antler size on their deer herd.

This forum is proof positive that hunters can't age deer on the hoof. 13" rule is the remedy for that.

I agree 100%, but I think it will take a while to educate hunters to be able to age on the hoof. Until then, this may be the best start we can hope for. It should let some nice young bucks make it a few years anyway.

I like to shoot the better deer, dont care anything about shootin a 4 or 6 point. I pass alot of deer every year and truthfully the fun part to me anymore is seeing the deer and not shooting them. Dont get me wrong I will still shoot one if it gets me excited, I have killed one this year. I personally dont like the rule because of the kids....awful hard to tell a kid he cant shoot a deer because hes not wide enough. Hard to keep a young hunter interested when he is constantly passing deer only to end up shooting a spike. With that said the kids are probably just as happy with that spike but for me I dont care for it. Also another problem I have already had to deal with is a young hunter on his own and shooting a deer doesnt make 13". Once the deer is shot theres nothing you can do about it. I would like it if the kids could shoot any buck and after a certain age...say 16 then they have to go by the AR. I feel like huntin is gettin so commercialized and its all about how big the horns are instead of what its really meant to be. Let the kids shoot the deer and make the adults use control. Just my 2cents.

Of course there will be some that would use the kids tag to cover their own a$$. Sad but true.

We had a Wildlife guy come in and give us a speech. The reason the AR's were put in place, is because they couldn't believe the 1.5-2.5 yr old deer being shot with small racks. It takes time for it to work, but it is all for the good. It's not what you can do for yourself, but the future hunters of tomorrow.

I think this subject has been beaten to death, but I am for it and I think it does work.

I think only being able to take one big buck is the key. So many would have never taken a spike but now need to if they want the meat. I do however think the spike rule is a little lacking because there a whole lota cull deer that are not legal to shoot now. We actually have more trouble finding legal spike of any size than deer with 13 in spread. there are a ton of 4s, 5s ,6s 7s, and even 8s that should be culled but can't.

duckingarrowthose people are poachers!

The thumbs up was for the quote above it not my statement.
The point of my statement is that there will always be poachers reguardless of what the laws are.

I understand and agree completely.

I agree, it has been beat to death but as most know, I don't like them....because it's all about antlers IMO. Old bucks can and do have narrow racks...oh well.

Or the kids get bored and loose interest.


Or what about the quality YOUNG 2 1/2 yr old 13" buck that gets taken out...?


Out of one side of TPWD mouth comes "too many young bucks being shot".....

Out of the other side of their mouth come "shoot spikes"=YOUNG BUCKS

It's okay to shoot spikes PHishTX, because they embarrass our heards since they are not trophies....

"High fence deer are like fake boobs.....They are nice to look at but I'll take the real thing."

Can't say I've ever gotten in one of those high fences...

Absolutely, no question. Yes, it will sometimes make you nuts that a mature deer has an awesome rack, but doesn't make the spread. However, the overall improvement of the herd and more available quality deer has been evident. We started a self imposed program in 2000. Our buck to doe ratio is getting there, but still a little short of our goal of 2 to 1.

... and yes, this subject has been beaten to death.

ding, ding, ding......I'm sure "antler size" was improved.

So why do you care what people shoot on their own land/lease?

Why would you care if people poached their own land? There are many rules put in place that restrict what can be killed. This is just another one. Why would you care if a guy bought 5 acres next to you and brought everyone he knows to come and kill as many deer as they could?

I could care less what ppl shoot as long as they let them reach maturity. One year I may get lucky, the next year, the neighbor may... no hard feelings, that's hunting. Let them start shooting every deer that walks, and allowing their kids and former niece's nephew twice removed do it as well and it becomes a problem worth fixing.

Were there really that many trigger happy, shoot any deer that walks hunters out there prior to the ARs? In the old one buck counties, there are probably more of those type hunters now than ever because the doe bag limits have increased and now you can shoot a spike and know that you are not using your one and only buck tag on a spike since now you can take a sike and still go after big boy. I reckon now, legally, the only deer safe out there now are the little "non-trophy" bucks.

IMHO I think it is a great thing that can't do anything but improve your herd. Personally I would never shoot a buck that small on a lease I paid my hard earned money for anyway. If I can't put my cross hairs on a "shooter" I'll try harder and hope for the best next time. Obviously not everyone feels the same way or we wouldn't need AR in the first place.

I am absolutely sure they are out there but I have never personally seen what I would call a big rack that was less then 13" wide. Just a novice here I guess....

What about this guy.....pre ARs......11 1/2 inch spread, we have seen quite a few on our lease like this:

You are talking about something totally different, not the question I asked.

I don't get the no does unless by MLD permit in certain counties
our place in Columbus is over run with does...
but the land owner doesn't believe in killing does and will never get doe permits...

now, while I can go to a buddies place every year and legally limit out on does for meat (and I do!) I think a lot of guys in these no doe counties shoot immature spikes and the first legal buck they see for meat... the horns probably get left for the yotes

No offence to you Curly, but while I would not call it "little" that is not a shooter in my book and would not have a problem passing it up. Does look nice from the side I bet!

Wow, is all I have to say

I guess shooters are in the scope of the gun holder. It scored over 130 and that to me is a shooter. The taxidermist aged him at 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 years old so I highly doubt that he waould have ever made the 13" spread rule.

I think you are right it would have never made the 13" rule. You have seen several on your place but I think this is still an exception to the rule. This kind of genetics maybe more common in some areas then others I guess.

But anyway as was said the key is letting them reach some age/maturity. I am not sure there is a better way then the 13" width restriction for the average hunter. I am not sure I can easily tell a 3.5 from a 4.5 at 350 yards, but I can tell if the antlers are past his ears.

AR's still don't prove anything. All it does is let a select few deer get old enough to grow some antlers that might reach a spread of 13". Whoopy!

You are right!

Uh, about being beaten to death....not about AR's...

I think they are a poor solution to a non-problem.

I thought you had changed your mind i was floored!LOl!

but the INSIDE of the antlers have to be outside his ears...
that's a little more tricky at a distance to be 100% positive

Yup and I let a good one go last Sunday because of that....I didn't like having to do that one single bit!

OK, I have never posted on a AR thread....

The Antler Restrictions only protect and let continue breeding the gap deer.... it allows you to harvest the babies that may or may not be good ones, and it allows you to harvest the NICE ones that need to be breeding to improve the herd.

I'd love to see it in FOARD County, where there are 10 bucks standing at the feeder....but it's a one buck only county.

The addition of the spike and two does to Fannin, Lamar, Red River counties (and others I am sure) is ridiculous. If the rule was to stop people from shooting the first deer they see...now they can legally shoot the first three they see?

Curly's pic was right on, that's a true trophy in east texas, and always will be. You could spout "I'd let him walk" for another 4.5 years and if he lived he still wouldn't be 13inches.

The overall population of deer in Red River, Fannin, Lamar counties had been growing and improving over the last 20 years. No one can dispute that. There was not a problem, until someone decided that deer had to have big horns. Since then, they have implemented the rule, allowed harvest of four a year instead of one a year, and the overall numbers are down, and no observable increase in size is apparent. The few good deer that were coming from there are still there, and the tons of spikes are still being killed, but now we are taking tons of does with them.

It's a solution to a non-problem. Their numbers are based on voodoo science, they won't publish their raw data, just their summaries and opinions. They honestly don't know what the age or health or even horn status of the real deer population is...they have no idea. If they are not going to do live studies (not owner/hunter counts); and if they are not going to mandate check in stations for all the deer, all they have are skewed numbers from single unreliable sources.

My son played basketball... he got to be about 6-2, you can let him keep growing to 2060....he won't ever play in the NBA and won't ever be 7 foot, but he still enjoys a pick up game now and then.

Why would any red blooded American want more government involvement in your life?

You can't make chicken salad from chicken droppings. But you can use it for fertilizer to grow something else.

Learn to age deer, require a new hunter ed course, make them take a cull before taking a trophy.... but dont' just let them kill more and expect things to magically get better.

Curly, I'd shoot that deer in any county in Texas, either as a trophy where we are, a nice one out west, or a true cull buck down south.

This is our 1st year. Hopefully it will stop everyone around us from shooting every button buck they see(I'll keep my fingers crossed). The bad part is that it encourages the shooting of yearling spikes. Nearly every yearling on our place is either a spike or a 3pt and always has been. They turn into very nice 8-12pts after 3-5 years. I just don't understand tpwd's thought process on this one.

But sadly sig, the TP&W won't let us shoot one like that now because they tell us he needs to mature since his antlers are ugly and narrow....

The theory is good. let em grow. But, the only problem i have with it is that some bucks will never acheive a wide rack. my buddy killed a 140 class buck 2yrs. ago that was 4 1/2 yrs. old and was only 12 inches wide which would be illegal now. also the deer had large ears so even in the alert position it still wouldn't pass.

In are area i am not so sure because we have alot of 2 1/2 year old dear walking around with 14" spreads but luckly everyone around us has agreed not to shoot them so that is good.

But those 12 inch monsters that most would shoot and not talk about are still doing the bulk of the breeding...

I agree.

Maybe they'll periodically change the spike only tag to be a spike or under 13" every few years to keep these 12" trophies in check. They may score high B&C but I hate basket bucks...

Basket rack bucks taste gooooood!!!!

No, I am talking about what people do on their own land. You asked why would he care. I gave you a few examples as questions. So do you care if your neighbor does the things I asked?

wel, I cant tell the rule has done any good. I am not seeing an increase of big bucks

I agree. I for one don't are a whole lot about antlers. If a nice one shows up, and gets me excited then I;; shoot him. But I'm not huntin for the antlers. My wife and I don't by any beef or other meat from the store. We rely on what we kill throught deer season and the rest of year(hogs, ducks, turkey, dove) to feed our family throught the year. My choice I know, but the 13" rule and other things goin on are really hurtin huntin than helpin. It really seems to be gettin to where its all about the antlers. just my opinion

OK for horn hunters but meat hunters it sucks.Maybe be ok if you knew others around werent shooting anything that walks.Spikes eat fine.

And in my opinion and those that hunt around us, there are fewer deer total with the increased LIBERAL bag limits.

If it's really an age problem, then by gawly lets not hunt at all a year or two... there ought ot be Pope and Crockett monsters jumping into the beds of trucks...

Deer hunting is now all about bragging rights not about anymore.

Helo, I have learned a long time ago people are going to do whatever they want when they want on their own land, as I do and I am sure you do. Why I asked that is, I want to know why people think that if a person shoots a certain type of deer it has to effect them some how.

It is just another game law. No different than any other game law. Do you think all game laws should be done away with, or just this one?

I agree with sig, I'd rather just not have a hunt every 3rd or 4th year and forget abot that 13 inch rule.

Of course we need game laws but to what extent? It is another law imposed upon us.... an un-needed one (IMO). One that is for bigger antlers. Game laws should not be done away with but ones that are implemented strickly based upon bragging rights should not be applied. It wasn't broke so it didn't need fixed, the only thing that's trying to get accomplished here is better quality head bones to hang on the wall and I bet I have folks here who will agree with me.

Again not what I asked, but to respond to your question laws are laws which we all have to follow. I was raised to hunt "deer" so yea a law limiting me to a certain type leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Don't give them any ideas, this would just hurt taxi's and processors.

So you must be against doe days also right? I happen to like AR's because it is allowing the younger deer to get bigger. I am first a meat hunter, I make sure I have enough deer meat to make it through the year. But I can do both. Why can't we hunt deer all year long? Why do I have to buy a hunting license? The list can go on and on. Let us shoot X amount and let us do it for the whole year. I would rather see a age restriction, but we all know that won't happen. So IMO this is the next best thing.

So spikes are bragging rights? I agree this law is no where near perfect. But it still allows people to take spikes, does, and one nice buck. I would love to see a better way to allow young bucks to get some age on them, but until someone comes along with a better way than I will support the AR's.

That would suck. Laws like that would just make more poachers and hurt so many business's it would be horrible.

No spikes aren't bragging rights, they are the opposite....get them out of the way because they are not trophies and guess what, you can still shoot a trophy! Bonus! How does shooting a spike help young deer mature?!?!? It doesn't. No it's not perfect....it's stupid.

We were not hurting the way it was. Texas had/has more deer than any other state....forget the size of Texas, that still says a lot. The only thing we might have lacked was more "trophies".

If It was allowing younger deer to get older why have a spike tag? Not familiar with doe days so can't comment in that. I agree with ya on that we can do both, hunters have been doing it for a long long time. So why change it now?

So you have a problem with trophies, and you also have a problem with shooting spikes. I just don't get it. Heck maybe it was a compromise to get the law passed. I have no idea. I don't get a lot of the game laws. We are not shooting spikes, unless they are older than 1.5.

No handgun during bow is another stupid law, and IMO is a direct violation of the constitution. But no one seems to complain about that one.

Like I said to Curly, maybe it was a compromise to get the law into effect and keep some people happy. I have no idea. Unless you are MLD you can't shoot a doe any day during the season in most if not all counties.

Why change it now, not sure. But maybe it has to do with more people wanting bigger deer. And where I am the deer are getting better every year. This year we passed on 2 bucks that would have been killed just a few years ago.

I'm against AR for so many reasons. I have explained before and will not go into that again.

I have one Question. Why is it so imoportant that the deer herd get older? Somebody explain that to me.

What I have a problem with it the TP&W telling us not to shoot a buck with antlers less than a 13" spread so they can mature BUT it's okay to shoot a young spike if we choose. Please explain that to me. I used to like shooting old East Texas basket rack bucks if we wanted too. I used to wouldn't shoot a spike because I didn't want to waste my buck tag on one but now it's easy too because I can shoot one and a "mature" buck....where's the logic in that? Oh and we can take more does now too. Where prey tell do you hunt? South or West Texas, I bet not East Texas? It's my God given American right to complain about this stupid AR rule as much as it is for folks to hate our president but I don't hear anyone jumping on Obama haters...and no, I DID NOT vote for Bobo.

I would prefer to shoot an older deer than a younger deer. Would it not be better to shoot the older ones that are getting close to dying anyways and letting the younger ones get a few year older?

No, older ones are tougher to chew......

I hunt on my property in east Texas. So you would rather the AR's (I know you still would not like them) if spikes where illegal?

Do you have a problem with TPWD telling you when you can shoot does? Or when the hunting season will open? Or is it just the 13" you have a problem with?

You can take more does, but you don't have to. Sounds to me like we have more options now than before, not less.

Just a few minutes ago you where saying Texas has so many deer, and when TPWD allows more to be killed you are against that also. I am sorry, I just can't follow the logic. You can still kill deer, you can actually kill more if you want. You just can't shoot a buck that has less than 13".

But I still don't comprehend what the big deal is if a 2 year old is shot over a 5 year old. (notice I am not even talking about horns)

I'm waving the white flag....I hate ARs, I think they suck, I will never change my mind about it no matter how many deer heads I wind up with on my wall. I love to deer hunt. Trophy hunters win and if you like ARs, you win too. I will live with them and keep on a huntin'....K? I'm done arguing, not giving up or changing my stance, just done arguing, peace out...

Okay, lets start here. Do you believe that so many deer a year need to be killed to keep the herd in proper size? If so, would it not be better to kill the ones that are older and on the decline anyways? I think so, and that is what I try to do on my little place. The doe I took the other day was 5.5, isn't it better to take her than one in her prime say 2.5 or 3.5?

Come on, it is just getting fun.

And by the way, I am not a trophy hunter. Never shot anything over 100 inches. Might never, but I am having fun trying to improve the deer on my place, and keeping my freezer full.

Well okay, let me recharge my batteries and I'll do my damnedest to convince you and all the other AR lovers that ARs are the most worthless rules out there, unless you are all about the bones on top of a buck's head.....I mean does the improvement of a herd of deer really depend on the size of the antlers on a buck's head????

I can respect your opinion on what you want to achieve with no problems. I want to know the benifet that the state is trying to achieve with this implementation?

Also how often do I/you see a deer in the six to seven year range. I think the only way that would happen is to only allow hunting every five years

agree w/ jrc121 100% and im tired of seeing all the fork horn w/spots and basket 6's and 5 pointers in the meat locker when it doesnt have to be that way. in my opinon stopping this may be fighting a losing battle but maybe the AR will help, i sure hope so. oh and one other thing ive got 5 boys from 10 yrs down to 3 yrs and i dont feel bad at all for telling them that the deer is too small and to wait, it teaches them early some mngmnt tactics. they dont need to kill a basket 8 that might one day be a 160 class 10, thats shooting ourselves in the foot or one step back.

LMAO. I just really don't see why AR's bother you if you are only after meat. I just does not make sense to me. Unless you think that basket 8 is a trophy why does it bother you to not be able to kill it? I guess they don't bother me because I could care less if I ever kill a monster buck. Sure I would not mind it, but it is not the reason I hunt. I just wish there was a better way to take out the crappy deer. I am trying to take out the deer that I feel should be taken out. I am just as happy killing a doe, a real ugly buck, or a trophy buck. I just see no point in killing a baby. I get more meat off the older ones.

Antlers.....antlers........antlers.......if a hunter has a little 4 point in a processor freezer locker and it was legal and he is happy, more power to him. Who am I to say there should only be trophies hanging in there....why are they at the processor in the 1st place......to get processed TO BE EATEN.

Maybe the state see's more money from out of state hunters with bigger deer. I don't know. I just know that I like to see the deer on my place get better ever year.

That would kill lots of hunting in the state. I for one may find another place to hunt if that happened. I will hunt my property every year, I don't mind rules but I that is IMO over the line. Much rather see a lower limit. In fact I think the limit needs to be lower than it is.

Because I grew up hunting deer that made me happy. Rules weren't as strict. I'm old school. If a hunter came to camp with a basket rack 6 point and he was happy, we all celebrated. The hunting society is now getting to the point that the only reason to be happy or to congratulate a hunter is if he brings in a Boone and Crockett or Pope and Young buck.

Sorry in advance.

I thought you could not eat the antlers?

You can't eat them, hence my gripe. I can't shoot a buck with any less than a 13" spread....or a spike.

When it comes to pop control I don't think age is a factor in what gets taken out.

Not true, me and my boy where so dang happy when he shot his doe the other day. We would not have been any happier if it had been a huge 12 point. Other than bragging rights there is no difference in the fun, or excitement of it. Heck I was happy when I shot my doe last week. I was even more happy about these two does, because it was one's we where after. Being able to pick the deer and actually be able to get both of them was awesome.

LMAO, I just could not resist.

You really don't think it is better to kill the older ones than the younger ones? Honestly? The younger ones do most of the breeding, and will be around longer if no one kills them. The older ones are going to die a horrible death of starvation in a year or two anyways.

Awesome....I wished I had seen a doe to shoot since opening of rifle season. I saw 2 opening morning that were hauling butt through some trees. I've hunted every weekend since plus the week of Thanksgiving where I saw 2 bucks, a small 6 point and a nice tall 8 that was quesationable on the antler width so I cussed and let him go. That's been it so far.....but I'm not b*tching.

Curly we must have hunted with the same group of hunters when we were young. I have never critisized anybodys deer that is brought into camp. Its always a cause for celebration in my opinion.

Thank you, my dad was just as happy for me with a small 6 I took one year, as he was with the 17 1/2 8 point my brother shot this year.

We have been seeing about 4 does per hunt on average. Not many bucks, but better bucks than the previous years here. Have been getting better every year.

Doe days or over now, so can't shoot them. I used to hate the 4 doe day season they had here. Much rather this longer doe season we have now.

No different here. Never criticized anyone's deer. Always congratulated ever legal deer killed.

I can respect your opinion on what you want to achieve with no problems. I want to know the benifet that the state is trying to achieve with this implementation?



Maybe the state see's more money from out of state hunters with bigger deer. I don't know. I just know that I like to see the deer on my place get better ever year.


There you go you hit it right in the head. The TPWD does not care Squat about the herd its all about the antlers and money nothing else. The TPWD always cries about the fact that we are losing hunters in the state. Maybe they should try regulating what a leasers charge to hunt thier land (boy there would be and uproar there). For me I have seen more of my friends give up on hunting because of the increase in prices. This in turn hurts everything in my opinion. So there with that said its all about the money!

i do care if i shoot a monster buck. thats all the bucks i will shoot w/a bow anything 130class and above except for cull bucks and doe. you cant argue that its more difficult to attract, feed and hold, stalk, walk upon or whatever on a 5.5 yr old 130 class 8 or 10 than it is to do the same to a basket 6 or 8 or 1.5 or 2.5 yr old deer. theres a certain level of sportsmanship to retrieve a mature buck thats why theyre more difficult, i could limit out in 1 day on young deer and what fun is that season over in 1 day, no i dont think so. does, culls, and big bucks for meat,young ones walk on my land.

No what I am saying is you see post on here about people saying the land owners want so many does shot this season, I am sure those hunters are not just shooting older does, they are wacking any slick head that walks out.

Now when I look to shoot a doe I just go with the fattest one, if she is 2 years old, oh well.

Word.....anter restrictions = better antlers = more trophies = more $......who can argue with that?

Of course everything is about money. I didn't even realize that money was not agree upon by all of us already. I am sure public outcry pays a part also, but we all know money talks.

Not asking what the norm is. I am asking if you think it is better for the herd if the older ones are taken?

On my land we only try to take the older does, or a doe with an injury. My goal is to take any that are injured first, then the oldest ones around second. We are not shooting young healthy ones even if it means not getting a doe.

Wider antlers are better for the herd.

I don't believe it has anything to do with the width. It is the only way that I can think of that would let most of the younger deer get older. If you have a better way, please speak up.

I thought you didn't believe AR's would make bigger antlers? I seem to remember you saying that all the smaller ones would be breeding and all the bigger ones would be shot early. Having a hard time keeping up with you.

OK now were getting somewhere. Think about this real hard before you answer. By your above statement the AR rules that were implemented are total BS and are a worthless rule! Correct? Its all about the money right

keep LYAO, i dont even take money into consideration as far as the tpwd is concerned. my concern is trying to outsmart that older, mature buck thats worth paying to mount on the wall. and it is hard to do but thts the sport if it. anyone can get meat, few can get trophy's. it all depends on what your after.

My idea....it was okay the way it was.....wasn't a problem enough to impose the rule in the first place, I was taking deer big and small, male and female just the same then as now, only now it's tougher, I think I see even less total deer now than then...but that's me and my ideas....this message has been approved and sponsored by Curly. 10pointers and WhiskeyD, let's go have a drink and talk about old times.

I'll buy the first round.

Okay, hang with me a minute here....shooting young spikes (which is legal) is not helping young deer mature yet it is illegal to shoot young basket racked bucks anymore, which lets them possibly grow into trophies, providing they don't do the East Texas thick, tall and narrow antler growth routine. You may have a hard time keeping up with my logic but I have a hard time keeping up with the TP&W's logic. My logic means squat, TP&W's logic is the word of God, so don't worry about keeping up with little old Curly.

I'll get the second

I think money was the driving force for Texas, but I also think public opinion had an effect. I like the rule, would like to make it better, but for now I am fine with it.

No I don't think they are BS or worthless. It is helping more young deer get older, and IMO is a good thing. Sometimes money and a good thing can co exist.

What do you mean by keep LMAO?


I am after both. I won't kill a young nice deer even if it is legal. Passed on a 8 point this year that I would have killed for 2 years ago. I try for the older deer, I am not very successful, but I am still trying.

No I would not have taken a young doe. I would have just hunted harder, or filled my freezer with hogs.

Just trying to understand why you don't like them. Not trying to be a jerk or anything else. I was just pointing out you have said different things. If you believe they won't grow bigger deer fine, just trying to figure out which way you believe.

I'm sleepy. I'm going to bed and dreaming of the good old days of deer hunting.....until tomorrow.....adios.

Good night.

So by this method you follow, you could go possibly 3 years without shooting a single deer.

hey helomech, keep trying for that older deer theyre tough to figure out. i hunt in south parker co. and at the beginning of bow season i had a 150 class 10 pt on camera at night twice and once one morning and havent seen him in person yet. 3and1/2 weeks ago i drew back on a 130 class 10pt 3 times and let him go because of the other ten. the 150 class ten showed up on my camera on thanksgiving night at 1:50 am and havent seen either one since. did i make a mistake by not flinging one at the 130, maybe but thats hunting and if i dont o well thats what does are for, but not basket 6,7,or 8s.if we dont let them grow, we'll never know!

I believe that letting young basket rack bucks walk will make them better trophy deer (it's illegal to shoot them now anyway), I don't believe shooting young spikes will do that but it's legal, what I don't like is being told that I have to shoot a deer with a certain antler spread. It's not like a fish, where you can catch it and then measure it and if it's not legal, toss it back and let it live, TO ME, it's taking the fun and the purity of what true deer hunting was all about........that's about as clear as I can make myself. I don't like ARs, in fact I hate them, you do like them, it's okay, we both love to hunt, I won't stop hunting....don't know what else to say but goodnight.

I guess it is a possibility, but I don't think it is likely. I got plenty does, and hoping to have more next year.

I do have one disclaimer. If for some reason I thought there were too many does, and none where old. I would take out the ones that where the oldest or in the worst shape. But if there aren't to many deer, than I would not take a young one.

Thanks, sounds like you have a great place.

thank you great posts and good huntin!

I understand your feelings now. To me the uncertainty of it is also a good thing. Because it may give that young legal (but barely legal) buck a chance to get away. Lots of times I have seen a buck and had to pass on it because I was not sure. If he is a huge buck it will be easy to make the decision. But the border line ones you just have to let walk unless you are certain. Like I said, I get just as big of a kick out of shooting does.

Thanks same to you. Hope you see the big one soon.

for sure on that, believe me if i hadnt seen that 150 i would have shot at that 130 because in weatherford theyre hard to come by. 150s are anyway, we usually take 1 130 between all 5of us every year on 600 acres but i agree on the does if i dont get the big one ill for sure try for 2 doe thats just as good meat wise. or better

just jumping into the posts late. enjoyed reading all the post from both sides. My ranch is on the edge of south texas (SE medina county). I've never hunted e or n tx. Just hill country and s tx. We had a big discussion at our wildlife coop last year b/c AR was starting in Atascosa County (half our coop is in Atascosa and half in medina). The tpwd biologist stated that many management groups were the ones that have been vocal in pushing AR b/c most of the hunters in the coops are tired of letting good young bucks walk only to watch them get shot on the neighbors property. That or just the lack of seeing larger/mature bucks. The reason TPWD allows spikes is b/c of a 20 yr study on the Kerr Wildlife Management Area on spikes vs forked antlers. The conclusion of that study was that even though the spike may grow good antlers later, they still would be smaller than the forked antler buck. (I went to the seminar that TPWD put on up at the management area and looked at the study.) As always, there will be exceptions to the rule. I happen to favor the AR and still shoot the older spikes for genetic reasons, but tend to believe that all bucks should be allowed to reach 3 1/2 before deciding to shoot them or not. By then you can judge if the deer is going to become a true trophy (in s tx 150 BC is the standard for a trophy) or not.

Regarding the post of landowners charging more for lease fees: Have any of you tried to be a rancher/farmer and feed your family solely on income from farming or ranching? The day of the small family owned ranch making it only on income from the farm/ranch is almost extinct. A 650 acre farmer is lucky to make more than $30k a year off the land in a good year. Can you raise a family of 4 on that or less? Rather than selling to developers,or breaking up the ranch into "ranchettes" many family ranches are turning to hunting for their income instead of farming & ranching (or they are doing some combination). Thus the increase in fees. That and many out of state and in state hunters are still willing to pay the rates for a chance at a really good trophy buck. Most of south texas is now expensive b/c of it but it keeps the larger properties intact and family owned.

Yes I have and your right you cant.

I think they need to change it to 15 inch inside spread!

Well theres a good reason to punish the rest of us hunters.....Just so you can be happy and achieve YOUR goals !!!!!!

Perfectly said !!

If moneys not an issue for you then why arent you huntin where you have alot better chances at killin a 150 instead of havin 5 people on 600 acres??? Your startin to sound like some other people I have talked to !!! CRAZY !!!!!!

There is always the group of hunters that will pay whatever the price is. But as for your average hunter when you go from $250 to $550 to now a $1000+ average for a decent lease get ready to start losing hunters. Thank god my dad purchased land and I have the opp to hunt there. But like most hunters I want to hunt with my friends and family and have that hunting camp fun.
What will ranchers do when the hunting income dries up? Eventually landowners will have to stop raising prices or figure out another way to make ends meet. I feel most of of is driven by greed.
It's funny how I have a group of friends that pay $1000 for 1200 acres and have another group that pays $1000 for 400 acres and they are about 30 min from each other. And the differance in the 2 places is night and day.

I have not read all 6 pages so sorry in advance if I repeat someones thoughts. AR is better than nothing but in the long run it will limit potential of a herd. The best 2.5 years olds are open to shoot while the ones with the least potential are not. The answer for this state is to get the hunters to stop shooting young deer. If you want something to eat shoot a doe they taste better and in many areas there are too many. You should not shoot a trophy every year if you define a trophy correctly. And please don't allow your children to shoot immature bucks just so they can shoot one. All this teaches is that when you go hunting you should shoot a buck. There is nothing wrong with shooting a doe. My daughter had to watch a great looking 2.5 8point probably 16 inches wide score 120 ish at 2.5. It ticked her off aat first but that became a teaching moment and now she gets it. This said I guess it is better than no regulation because we have done this before and alot of people out there shot anything with horns. MLD type programs are great. Even if land owners don't want to do that they can adopt the theory and even with smaller tracts 2-3 neighbors can get together and manage together. Set guidelines, require pictures, restrict deer taken off property, etc. I am shocked at how certain leases get shot up. 4 guns turns into 20 with guests and the like. Ranches with good herds will always get leased and for top dollar. And for the record with the average mindset of alot of people public land herds are a lost cause. It is an example of getting what you pay for.

10pointers, where are you?

Your definition of hunting and mine are totally different. When did hunting get to be so complicated?

lmh steel go ahead and limit out in 1 day and achieve your goal w/ small deer it takes the pressure off the surrounding hunters for the rest of the year that might be trying for that big one, the one thats actually a challenge. and as far as the money issue i was referring to the tpwd and landowner discussion on the antler restrictions, im not a land owner and money is an issue but im willing to feed young deer and let them grow into a hopeful buck one day. let me explain something, the last big buck ive shot out here was in 2000 a 133 8pt and 1996 139 11pt prior to that and 1991 a 146 7/8 prior to that. i dont have to shoot a trophy deer every year, but if i see one thats great. i like to think that we have 130s and 150s because we let nice 3.5 yr olds go. but you keep doin your thing. good luck

i agree w/ hwy man 15 inch rule!

I have always said if all the deer in Fannin/Lamar/Red River need to be monsters is a couple of years just don't hunt them for two years, heck, they should all be wall hangers... crap wait three years and we'll set the woods on fire with hunters from all over the world coming to east texas to deer hunt...

I am going to get mine somewhere, but it is not right for the AR's to be imposed without science or reason, and then to add the spike and doe days to make it go over better....

But as far as the width rules go, make it 17, in Real County we'll still get one every year, but there will still be a bunch that NEVER get to 17, even at 12.5 years old...

JT38off.....So your tellin me that since 1991 you have only killed 3 bucks???? I would find a new hobby !! I am puttin a picture in here that I have already posted once just to show you that were not really killin all small deer. This is my familys kill last week. We dont kill "monster bucks" but I think we killed some good un's, so dont judge my statements so quick.

watch your statements then, and those are the bucks that ive taken in weatherford, not san angelo or sonora. but again i dont care if i get a good buck or not i enjoy the outdoors and the sportsmanship. great pic by the way!

Buddy, those are monsters in my book! Congrats!!!

AR really stands for Antler Revenue.....

Just woke up from Graveyard nap. Let me clear my eyes and i'll get in on this!

Good god yall killed um all!!! LOL Nice deer!

nice pic JT! For my place in SE Medina county, the unwritten general rule is that if you take anything w/ 4 pts or more, it gets mounted. We let bunches of good youngsters walk every year. Every place is different.

regarding my earlier post on cost: I agree that costs are getting out of hand. Going market rate for a quality South tx year lease is around $3000 or more per gun. I happen to charge less than that for a ranch less than an hr from San Antonio for hunting a 2k acre place but I have restrictions that all hunters have to follow which turns away quite a few potential hunters.

We are seeing more (population has gone up) are bigger deer in the bosque and coryell county areas. Co-worker came by an showed us some pics of a big 8 point he took in the bosque area, so far those guys have taken 3 good bucks on their lease 600 acre lease. In the past pre antler restriction only one guy would take a mature buck for the entire season, and the rest of camp would get a few does sprinkled in here and there. Now just about everyone has at least got a doe, three mature bucks and one giant buck that was missed. They are loving it, the only worry is their lease price might go up in the future because the hunting has improved.

Ahhhh, I see a trend here.....

I am not trying to define hunting just commenting on AR and why we have to have. I don't like AR but it seems needed do to certain attitudes out there. If your definition is it is ok to shoot immature bucks just to shoot a buck then they are different and you might be part of the reason we have AR. Shoot mature bucks and there is no need. Why don't you tell me the logic in shooting a 2.5 year old 13 inch 8 point. I doubt your going to mount it, maybe nail horns above your garage. Doe taste better. Let them get big. Is that complicated. I guess it is easier to shoot the first thing you see.

I dont have a tooth in my head(now theres a picture huh!) and anybody who eats deer will tell ya a old mature buck is like chewin shoe leather! I like a younger more tender deer for the obvious reasons. Yeah i know, shoot a doe! Well tpw pretty much screwed that up too by letting our doe population get wiped out in the 4 yrs of ar rules and bag limits. We are going to loose more and more young hunters with ar unless we all win the lottery or got rich dads and moms who can afford to take the kids to the high dollar leases. My dad wont hunt anymore and neither will the kids because we see so few deer anymore because tpw thinks we need to be able to kill 4 deer instead of 1 and every doe they shoot is making it happen all the quicker! I used to be able to see deer almost everytime i hunted my property now im lucky to see a deer and after 4yrs of ar havent seen 1 legal buck this year and no does at all. I know all countys are different and thats ok but tpwd should do a little more research on deer numbers before they make bag limits for each co. Let me ask all you ar lovers a serios question, Wich would you prefer? Going hunting and see a good number of does and small bucks and every once in a while a deer that might be a shooter and legally be able to kill 1 deer, big or small, your choice and have the fun of seeing deer or like it is now after 4yrs of ar rules and 4 deer bag limits and not see any deer in close to a month of hunting, no big deer or small because all the does are shot and the spikes and nuthin left to shoot! Dont want any smart azzz replys just honest responce to the problem we have here and a few surrounding countys. My daughter and my dad and my son wont hunt anymore cause they dont want to sit for days on end and not even see a deer and thats what makes me the maddest of all.

I see deer almost every time out and we have been under AR for more than 4 years. Saw 7 yesterday, and around lunch time today saw a nice tall 8 point and about 20 does along the dirt road. So I like AR's.

Helo thats great and like i said each county is different and thats my point tpwd needs to do more research! And you didnt answer my question about the state of hunting around my place, really only one answer if ya really like to see and hunt deer, ar rules aint working here! I got no problem with people wanting bigger deer as long as it aint at the expensece of the rest of us that just want to see some deer.

Oh. Yeah if they aren't working in areas they should remove them. Or at least lower the bag limits, heck I would love to see lower bag limits here, even though we are seeing deer.

I don't know the situation in your county or your area. I grew up in East Texas and hunted one of the best looking properties you could find. At that time doe "permits" were hard to come by. Only issued to the landowner and had to be issued by him. In addition nobody wanted to shoot doe. If it had horns however it got shot. Guy that owned the place shot a 10 point that would probably score 135. The Newspaper came out and took pictures and everybody in town rushed to his shop to see. Reffered to it as a buck of a lifetime. This was in 1985. Now on just about any property that is managed at all you can get a 135 inch buck.I think that is an improvement. The alternative was an area like llano at that time the deer were the size of goats and everywhere. I think hunting in Texas is the best I have seen. I do not think AR is a perfect fix but in alot of areas its needed. In the long run it will limit potential. Just because you have a certain amount of tags does not mean you should use them. Some properties cannot take that type of pressure. As I mentioned earlier MLD is great or a landowner taking control of a situation to prevent overharvest, underharvest, bad management practice, etc. I get excited about the chance at a big deer and am ok with seeing less. I am lucky to hunt a property where you rarely see nothing but we have put alot of effort into it.

Yep thats my point, would rather see more smaller bucks and more does than nuthin at all. It really upsets me that my family wont hunt anymore because of the lack of deer. My daughter shot a 5pt 5yrs ago with me and was one of the most memorable days of my life and now thats over and will never have another one of huntin deer with her because of ar. May sound corny to some but im serious as a heart attack!

Killemall you didnt answer the question either in my post, you cant tell me you would rather not see any deer at all over seeing more small bucks and does when hunting. Nobody is willing to answer that question honestly to me. Nobody wants to hunt for weeks on end and not see any deer as compared to seeing plenty of does and small bucks but few big bucks but at least you see deer. If its working were you hunt then im trully happy foy ya but it aint here. Also you are right about 1 thing, just cause you have 4 tags dont mean you have to use em but alot of people will just because they can! TPWD needs to do more research and limit the number of deer taken in some countys and increase the number in other countys.

Oh, that is the question you meant. Didn't mean to not answer was just not sure what question. I would rather see deer, than not see deer.

Thanx helo. Thats all it boils down to at my place and nuthin has changed, same neighbors all the way around me the only thing that changed was the rules and bag limit so dont know what else to blame it on. Always killed a deer every year for over 20yrs and along comes AR and new bag limit, now havent killed a deer for 2yrs straight and not lookin good this year either.

But would you be okay with AR's if the bag limit was reduced?

Hoytman, I like to see deer, I agree that if it is not working in your county then it should be looked at. I do not know the process that the state uses for evaluating limits on a county by county basis but they should be proactive. We are MLD, based on conditions, rain, forage, fawn crop, our limits are adjusted yearly. On 1300 acreas we have taken as many as 14 doe and as few as 8 depending on what is going on. I truly believe that in the end it is up to land owners to take control of their situations to protect the herd on their property. Just because someone leases it does not mean they can shoot the hell out of a place. It is very simple to put conditions in a lease and to throw someone out who is not following rules.And it is a shame that you have a bad situation with your property right now, I think hunting is one of the best family activities there is and it is impossible to have a kid see nothing time and time again and want to keep at it. Stinks for grown ups as well.

Helo i would be ok with that if they would lower the bag limit to say 2 deer, 1 buck and maybe a doe during bow season like it used to be and im sure the numbers would rebound. If they would also change the buck tag to spike or 13in. or greater not both. Dont think it will ever happen because i have talked to the warden and a biologist in hopkins co. and neither thought there was a problem.

First happy birthday.

I would like to see one buck one doe with no doe season. Let the doe be shot anytime during the hunting season. I would not mind leaving the 13" or spike, just have to pick one or the other, that would be fine by me.

Thanks on the happy birthday! My 50th but how did ya know? We both got something in common on the bag limits. I would love that!

DUH didnt see the icon. my bad.

LMAO, yeah the icon gave it away.

Ya know as long as i have been on the forum you would think i would have spotted that. Oh well i am gettin old.

That is funny, can't believe you never noticed that before.

My view on AR's;

If everyone adheres to the law, I can see the idea of it being a good thing to a point. But.......

One problem is, in east Tx where the law is now in effect on a large scale, there are still way too many people who can, and sometimes will, shoot a buck, doe, or otherwise illegal deer and take it to the house for processing. Thus it never even sees a public road. Yes, this is poaching, and this is the battle that has been fought in E. Tx for as long as TPWD has regulated hunting in the state.

Then there's the fact that a lot of properties in E. Tx have several family members that hunt them, where more of the land in the Hill Country and S. Tx is lease land and managed better. This lends itself to more of the mature bucks and spikes being killed, leaving more doe! And that's a best case scenario, leaving out the poaching aspect I spoke of above.

Now they also let us kill two bucks, one spike and one buck over 13". This is ridiculous when they won't let us take at least an equal number of doe. I can see the buck to doe ratio getting out of whack really quick. Sure, everyone enjoys going out to the stand and seeing more numbers. But when those numbers are 80% or more doe, what's the point when you can't kill them? Now the mature deer we're supposed to be hunting no longer have to show themselves during the rut because there's hot does everywhere. And then there will be no way they can breed all those doe in the first or even the second breeding cycle. So now the fawn crop for the next year is going to have a higher % of spike/button bucks. These bucks will be shot for meat or because they will be the only legal bucks that a lot of hunters see in a season.

I'm not against implementing some sort of management in E. Tx. It is sorely needed. We hunt a small piece of family property, and it's hunted by more people than it should be. But we are all very conscious of the total number of deer taken each year, and the age of those deer as well. We now see better deer, and more deer because of it. But we still only get one doe permit a year. So we see 10 or more doe to every buck. That's out of whack, way out! But there's nothing we can do, legaly, to fix this. The only thing is to hit them hard during bow season and decimate the doe population for a couple of years. But then if the adjacent lands aren't doing the same thing what have we gained? Nothing if they're letting them walk.

I'm not one to gripe without having an idea for solving the problem myself....
The "Jay Management Plan":
*Outlaw shooting bucks for three years, or until the herd ratio is seen to be corrected.
*Let everyone in these counties have one doe each for meat during this time. Properties that meet the criteria would get more doe permits through the LAMPS program.
*The bucks in the herd would then get age and the ratio would be brought closer to where it needed to be.
*Then go to a 1 buck 1 doe season across east Tx (Let the would be poachers who kill the undersized buck for meat have a doe instead).
*Make it so hunters must kill a doe before they can shoot a buck.
*The buck must have a 13" spread or at least one tine over 8" long.
*Add a spike only late season, spikes to be killed only during this time, not during the regular season (This way anyone who needs the meat can kill it if they didn't get a buck during the regular season).

Please, point out any holes in this plan?


It's very easy for hunters in the Hill Country and S. Tx to be on board with the AR plan, especially when it doesn't effect them. But there are inherent problems to the E. Tx region that need to be addressed with a viable solution that makes the practices of a large number of landowners legal, while addressing the desire to see the herd get more age. The current AR program falls way short of that IMO.

Jay

Not following you, we can take 2 does and 2 bucks in our county.

Happy birthday Hoytman!!! I wish they would get rid of ARs for your birthday!

How's your buck to doe ratio?

We have no doe days, and doe are by permit only during regular season (Freestone County). Permits are per LAMPS coordinator's discretion (depends on habitat and acreage). We are eligible for one permit a year. It seems that over eight acres of spring and fall food plots aren't enough to even get us a second permit.

I know a lot of counties now have doe days. And that's great for those counties. We have none, and I can count at least 6-8 doe on every hunt. Often more than 10. Maybe a buck or two, maybe, and they're juveniles most of the time.

That sucks, why would they not have any doe days?

Before season started it looked like my ratio was spot on, but now I am not seeing hardly any bucks. Our doe days last year were only during Thanksgiving weekend, but this year it last about a month. Which IMO it should last the whole season, what difference does it make when they are killed?

Yet another rule from TPWD that is difficult to understand the meaning of. My only guess is that when they limit the amount of time, there may not be as many killed. I guess it's a way to allow doe to be killed, but not too many.

Couldn't they just lower the amount to 1 per person and do the same thing?

Who knows why TPWD does half the things they do? Your idea makes sense to me though.

The buck-doe ratio idea is weak, the only reason to worry about that is low fawn rate, which is hard to argue since Texas has the highest in the nation. So high, that other states are coming to Texas to research, or at least they were.

There's no evidence to suggest there was a problem before AR's. And no evidence to suggest that AR's have helped.

If it really is necesary for the health of the herd, then we just need to stop hunting for a year or two.... or just have the four day doe season.


I think it should be a rule that you post what county you hunt in before posting about AR's.

I hunt Red River/Fannin under AR's; Foard and Real counties without AR's. I see a lot of people for AR's that only hunt South or West Texas, which is really a different thing altogether.

Not that your opinion is not wanted, but be realistic in thinking Red River Co Deer will never look like Real Co deer...

Is this a new Man-Law

Make it so...

Heck yeah, I see more!!!! Before the 13 inch rule, hunters were killing anything that moved.

I have hunted Erath County for the past 12 year's with the oil and gas stuff going on deer hunting has sucked the high hard one for the past 3 years. This year I have seen the most deer in a very long time, however only one buck for sure past his ears. Some of these deer would easily age 4-6 year's old, have alot of mass and weight but the rack's are narrow.

Mature buck's, I think something needed to be done to slow the harvesting of young deer but the antler restriction is making it very difficult that we as Texans work so hard to protect and pass on.

There could be an alternative to the restricion but what that might be a hard subject to argue, I am just going to keep on following the rules and laws set in place so hopefully I can pass on an American tradition to my son and daughter.

It is an excellent rule and the proof can be seen by researching the P.W.C..They collared deer and studied them and proved that the numbers of bucks increased as well as the average age and size of horns..If you want to just hunt meat then I guess youll just have to take a doe instead of one of our future trophies. lets face it Texas doesn't bring in billions for the great doe hunting nor would you pay thousands of dollars for a lease because the does tasted better there.

May be but I must admit I'm seeing more and more too close to shoot older deer.

It doesn't bother me, not really a "trophy hunter", but if I just need to shoot something for the meat I'll take a doe. We just got ARs in stephens county this year, looked back at my bucks from years past(hunted the same land my whole life) and only 1 buck wouldn't have been legal under ARs and it was my first deer ever.

This is Montague County's first year under AR. I have seen three bucks that I don't think will ever be legal to shoot.

But not everyone pays thousands of dollars to just shoot deer, you might but a lot of us like to use the lease year round for other activities. Would I ever pay over 2k for a lease, heck no, when you get to that price range better off paying an outfitter.

Sadly, that will become common. At least there are some that will be 13's in Montague....come east 3-5 counties and see whats there...

Some people seem to resent the spike rule. The state has to do something to allow non MLD properties to manage genetically inferior deer. Don't blame the State because a large group of people out there can't wrap there minds around the fact that yearling and 1.5 year olds often have spikes and should be passed. Some people will shoot every "legal" deer they see. Then they will spit tobacco on the floor and say I paid for my tags and it is my right to use them.

Did you read this before hitting post "Don't blame the State because a large group of people out there can't wrap there minds around the fact that yearling and 1.5 year olds often have spikes and should be passed"?

The state is letting this people shoot more spikes now than ever? A lot of places that's all they can shoot!



As for the guy spitting tobacco and proclaiming his right...... he's right. I may not agree with his choices, but I will defend his right to choose...

Sig, do you think you should shoot yearling and 1.5 year old spikes? That is the point. State does not want yearling spikes shot. Older spikes should be shot. My point is a certain group of people will try to justify shooting anything. That is the problem with AR. Alot of the griping about it is by people who can no longer legally shoot any deer they see. It is the only way to slow them down.And yes I read it.

No I don't, but the state does..... or why would there be a regulation allowing it? Your statement was in direct conflict with itself.... If the state doesn't want 1.5 spikes shot, change the rule.

The point is a group of co-ops couldn;t even get their own members to abide by their rules, so the got the state to do it for them. The rule was bad and unpopular, so as they spread that crap around the state they added the second buck tag and increased doe harvest to appease some people.

So you are saying we shouldn't blame the state for the state regulation that now allows them to shoot the first spike they see and can then wait on a bigger buck? Who should we blame? The people following the bad rule or the people that made the rule?

The rule is to allow mgmt. Some people understand that it is not unusual to have a spike at 1.5. Others don't care that the deer is 1.5 they will just shoot it. The people who put these rules in effect have to deal with the reality that trying to get people to age deer is impossible but they also understand that there are certain deer that should be removed from the herd. I don't think you will find a biologist that says it is a good idea to shoot a yearling spike, you may find one that says its ok to shoot a 1.5 spike but those are few and far between. It sounds like you are in favor of 1 buck. If that is the case I can go with that idea. It causes some issues for mgmt on some properties but thats ok. And you are right it is a bad rule but the problem it is meant to address is worse. Bottom line the AR is in place to keep entire age classes of bucks from being shot out. 1.5-2.5. They didn't have a chance. Spike is to allow for mgmt, I do not think it was made to shoot yearlings.

Sig, while I am thinking about it why don't you put your idea of how it should be done up here. I have read alot of your posts on this topic and can't figure out what you think. I think AR stinks but understand full well why it has to be done. My perfect world answer is not to shoot immature deer but I understand why that can't be the rule. There has to be a rule so what would you do?

What was the problem it was meant to address? Deer populations were on a rise and at a 100 year high under one buck with doe by permit only.... wasn't a problem, so I don't need to come up with a solution. (I don't have a job with TPWD to defend either)

The age class thing doesn't wash... If it was that, then the spike tag defeats that right away.

Health of the herd? Nope, No CWD or parasites or ???

Low Fawn Rate? Nope, Texas has had the highest fawn rate anywhere in the US (maybe the world) before the implementation of AR's.

The old rule was fine.... in fact, we had one of the fastest growing/healthiest/best producing deer herds in the country.

What we didn't have was big wide bucks in East Texas or Big Bucks in pockets because of them....

For example

Why do you keep using the spike rule to justify shooting young deer. The spike rule is to take bad genetics out of the herd. The Fact that it creates a way for people to shoot yearlings is not good but in my opinion it was not intented for that and if Texas hunters were not intent on shooting a buck no matter what it would work. The problem is the hunter mindset not the law. So you want 1 buck and no doe except by state issued permit. You will have your ratios completely out of whack. What will happen is landowners don't care enough to get the permits, doe do not get shot. Is the biologist going to evaluate every property that wants these? Is this Statewide? What do you do west of the metroplex? or in LLano. We will be overrun with doe. They are already evaluting rules on a county by county basis.

First I am not justifying it, I am against it. I haven't shot one in years...

As for spikes being bad, sure, after they are 2.5 and still spikes, their bad, before that, we don't know...so why shoot them? Where does it say its not for young deer? ON the license? Annual? TPWD Website? I don't want to shoot them. I don't want to shoot them. I don't want to shoot them. But the state sells every redneck I know a license that says get four deer in Fannin or Red River County. And obviously you pro-AR guys know the state is always right.


Of course I am not advocating ONE BUCK statewide, I never said that, so don't go there that's stupid, and I never said it anywhere anytime. Read for content...

Here's a real-time comparison... FOARD County, ONE BUCK... Fannin/Lamar/Red River.... 2 bucks and 2 does??? That's just dumb. THe current law allows more deer killed in NE Texas than Cross Timbers/N. Central????

If we had the highest fawn rate in the country...... how do we know the age structure was bad? TPWD even says they have NO IDEA of the age structure of live deer.


At least under the old ONE BUCK rule, at least some of the dumb ol rednecks from out here in the sticks MIGHT pass on a young one.... now the state tells them they can take 2? SO you want the same people who "can't age deer on the hoof" to have enough stones to pass on what the state told them to take?

No, there are more deer being taken today than 4 years ago before AR's... These NE TExas Counties went from ONE BUCK ONLY to four deer. How is that good for the age structure or health of the herd or whatever?

I don't propose a counter solution to a problem that never existed in the first place.

What counties do you hunt in? How long in each?

Red River 20+; Fannin 25, Archer/Baylor 8-9; Foard 2; Real 3-4, and every Hill Country county at least once I think...

Even if you dont agree with the ARs the way they are now the fact of the matter is that most places (escpecially in east Texas) have way too many hunters shooting way too many deer...

Its too bad that the state is having to regulate how hunters hunt in order to keep a quality hunting experience in those areas but that is the way it is. I would say that there is going to be more strict regs spreading across Texas since we (the hunters) cant seem to regulate ourselves.

Sig we are in agreement. One thing you say is absolutely right about the redneck mentality. It is very difficult to control and they will overconsume the resource just because they can. I once again am not pro AR and think it is sad that it has to be and think that it will limit the herds potential. As we speak a great looking 2.5 year old 13'' 8 pt is being gutted somewhere. i believe in shooting mature deer. I hunt under MLD in Jack and Young counties, Coleman county non AR and Own a place in Harrison county that I don't hunt because the $%^#@ neighbors may shoot me on the way to the stand. Just because the state says the limit is x does not mean that is what we should shoot. But some people will and that hurts the experience for everyone. East Texas counties with smaller tracts also have the problem of overhunting. I normally hunt on 1300 acres with 4 guns. Tags are issued after survey and we follow harvest reccomendations, I will say we rarely get the doe done. A 400 acre lease in East Texas with 4 guns and family shooting can cause a mess. That would be like 12 guns on our place and add a few brother in law deer you can shoot the hell out of a place quick. I do agree that the 2 buck thing leaves the door open for shooting young deer also and could completely understand going to one buck in certain areas. And don't think all of this is an east Texas problem, we are covered up with it out here as well. I am amazed that a button buck out here ever makes it.

Maybe you need to come to east Texas and hunt a year or two.

As for rednecks, most of them are the ones making good decisions, I was being facetious (just funnin ya). It's the drive in hunters that shoot up the places as bad or worse than any of the locals.

I was born and raised in West Texas. I got trapped here by marriage, working on getting back out there. But living here and hunting locally I see the problems everyday.... And the deer were on the rise in numbers and size here, until 4 years ago.

I agree, on our leases in Archer or Baylor County, the current structure is welcome. As is the family hunting grounds in Foard County, I'd welcome it. 13 is easy there and we need a second tag there. I turned down a shot at BEVO spike earlier this year because I had seen a 12/150+ the day before.... It's not uncommon to watch 8-10 bucks at a time there, but you can only take one.

I agree.......up to the point of state regulation...

the current state regs in NE Texas ALLOW MORE DEER TO BE KILLED than previous, not less.

Hey! what have we done to you?

I are one...

That Redneck doesn't use tags so the regs aren't geared toward him.He is hunting your lease while your writing this and he won't ever get caught because no matter how ignorant he is he spends more time driving the roads and watching your moves than you could imagine because he doesn't even have a job.

Most of the rednecks I know work more and harder than most that have a computer.... And most of them are a lot better at aging deer than most of us on here...

I think the term ya'll are looking for to describe poaching, road hunting, year around deer killing is white trash. There's a difference!