PHish, did you read what I wrote? I acknowledged the controversy. Its big. There are a lot of other factors to spikes than genetics alone. I would know, its in my field.

To answer your "Is this about horns or genetics question", I already said it was not to step on the feet of the already management minded individuals! Clearly, many yearlings are NOT spikes, but are forked antlers, so you would not be wiping out an entire age class by killing spikes. You DO wipe out an entire age class(es) if you kill everything and anything with antlers.

I read the last two pages and now I have a headache!

This has nothing to do with AR's it has to do with Increased TAG NUMBERS for yoru county.. Not to mention more food = less deer movement

I have owned 203 acres near Palestine for 6 years now. Up until this year it was a one buck county with no AR. I met with a biologist from TPWD last year at a processing facility and he told me that they were probably going to go to a two buck system with antler restrictions. The reason given to me was that with so many small acreage ranches and very little high fence ranches in East Texas that individual management was a waste of time. When you have 200 hundred acres, not high fenced you can only make your place preferable for deer, you can't effectively manage the herd. So....TPWD decided to implement antler restrictions to allow for more deer to live longer to increase the quality of the herd. That is my take on it. We are now on a MLDS permit system and the fact that only ONE deer over 13" can be taken doesn't bother me in the least. Last year, whatever buck you took...you were done. Now at least you can take a "management" buck and still go after the trophy. Don't know if it will work in the long run, but I applaud TPWD for trying to increase not only the quantity, but the quality of the deer herd and the biologists I work with seem to really care about both. Working for me anyway. And this is only my opinion.

Curly and Hoytman,
You guys need to first figure out what you even have a problem with. This is a thread on AR's and you are talking about harvest limits being raised.

I will say it again as I did before as to your argument about wanting to shoot whatever buck you see fit; no one gets ready for the hunting season, spends a bunch of money on stands, etc to only have it in their mind they will shoot a young immature buck that season.

Everyone that hunts here in Texas has to live up the the old addage "Leave if better than you found it." When you shoot young deer to "put meat in the freezer", you are not doing this. The age class will indeed be stressed and others will continue to pay for your irresponsible ways of thinking.

I think Curly summed it up the best earlier... "I guess we are just a bunch of dumb arses."

Woa there, you don't need to take what our stance against ARs is so serious. Our dislike for them has no real affect on you, not like calling us dumb arses which you quoted me on....that incidently was a sarcastic remark by me on that particular post. If what hunters such as Hoytman and myself do is within the boundries of the TP&W rules and is legal, such as "shooting a young deer to put in the freezer" you nor anyone should gripe at us, gripe at the TP&W, they set the rules and as long as we are following them, then all should be good.

Stick you need to read alittle closer. AR rules and the limit are one and the same issue and they are both TPW rules. The ar restrictions and the new bag limits came out together and if you would pay attention to my post i said we need to LOWER the bag limit not raise it! As my old boss used to say, IT DONT COST NUTHIN TO PAY ATTENTION! Everybody is intittled to there opinion here on the forum but if your gonna bash me and culy get your facts strait first.

OH forgot to say im a texan born and bred! and i go huntin for meat wether its a young buck, old buck, or doe!

They didn't raise the limits on thier own.. It was from hunter and land owner feedback.. just like the lengthened season in many west texas/panhandle counties and the upped bag limits in some of the counties west of Fort Worth. If you don't think public opinion is a big part of TPWD then how did the Grayson keep it archery only.

Blaming AR's for the lack of deer is just werid. If you truely feel that you have no deer and its not becuase they have had less movement due to more food then start balming other hunters and landowners that pushed for the increased limits. Or blame hunters that have your deer on thier property because they built better habitat. Or blame the other meat hunters that feel they have to fill all their tags.
True deer numbers aren't accuratly measured by hunter observation.

I don't like AR's either but its because I think the spike tag is BS and flawed science.

The one GREAT thing TPWD does is allow you to become a better conservationist and wildlife manager by educationing yourself and becoming part of the MLD program. A hunter that truely cares about his deer numbers would reach out to adjoining land owners and push to get large sections put under QDM program and ultimatly part of the MLD program. Instead of sitting on a forum lashing out why don't you seek advice on how to get ajoining hunters and land owners on the same program

point proven... Use all those tags!!!!

One last thing lower deer densities in TX is actually a blessing. Its healthier, bigger deer, assuming you allow them to get old enough not to have milk on thier face.

Yep and i used to kill 1 deer a year and was happy with that and now i can kill 4 legally except we dont have any left. 1 deer a year is plenty for anybody. Have talked to neighbors and they like the new rules except nobody is seeing any deer, gee i wonder why? My idea is getting more deer not less and i have talked to the biologist and warden.

Yep if our density was any lower we wouldnt NEED a deer season!

Funny how some hunters want to fuss at other hunters who do choose to fill their tags instead of fussing at the TP&W for issuing each hunter to have so many tags on their license. I know, I know, just cause you got them, doesn't mean you got to fill all of them....but they are there and you can. I have NEVER filled all of my tags and where I hunt, even if I wanted to, I don't think it would be possible.

Then your headed in the right direction. Just keep pushing them. Not trying to be an arse in anyway. I think sometimes we forget that we can be the best thing for deer or the worse.

But we forget that TP&W is just responding to hunters and landowners that pushed for more tags. Yes they are the governing body but they are just like every other governing body they respond to those that give them input. How did Grayson keep it Archery only... Hunters and landowners of Grayson County made a huge push.. TPWD listened to the majority and the majority won.

My main deer hunting ground in Oklahoma probley has less deer density then any where in tx east of 35. Technically we could kill 5-6 deer per person by law. We have keep it under 7 animals(Last year was a total of 5) for the entire property which is 2k. Our population has doubled in the last 5 years. Niebhors slay every thing and wonder why all our deer are bigger(bucks and does) and more of them. Its smiple we gave up some of hunting rights(Tag numbers) to make a push to due our part in maintianing our wildlife. Our fruits are now making an impression on the landowners and hunters around us. Slow process but its rewarding if you keep at it

First, I reject your premise that there was a problem in the first place. We had seen ever increasing number of deer, and better deer each year since I was kid... 25 years or more. So I don't think there was a problem with the old regs, one buck, and does by permit only.

IF, and that's a BIG IF, we even remotely thought there was a problem with age, health, whatever... how in the world can killing more deer help?

I will 100 percent guarantee that the dead deer (two bucks and two does) that someone can kill this year, will never ever get older and help the age structure.

If killing more deer is helping, then age structure was not the problem.

It is about bigger antlers, and bigger money. Period.

"It is about bigger antlers, and bigger money. Period."

BINGO!

You summed it up better than me! thanks vernon.

That BINGO is null and void ...the orginal seven counties, and the adjacent counties now under AR (and where I reside and hunt) hardly qualify as a hotbed of big-money leases, and likely never will...just not structured that way. We'll never be confused with south Texas.
Nope, the area fits the stereotype where there are some leases, and many privately owned/hunted ranches and smaller tracts..and often lots of hunters for some of the tracts.
I do understand TX P&W can "screw up" on occasion, on both what they do, or where they do it. But the AR concept is no evil plot to ruin everyone's hunting, or make it (more) expensive.
But letting young bucks walk did influence the larger antler side of your statement..to the delight of many hunters in our area.

We'll see my friend, in the future when licenses and leases go up because Texas will be known as THE TROPHY STATE, we'll see, IMO and I like the way you replied stating your case with the one who just said BINGO and not the one I BINGO'ed....

What does that even mean? It was clear what he was referring to. And Texas is already VERY well known for large whitetails...DUH.

Okay, You're all absolutyly right! It's all so clear now! I see the light! I give...ARs are wonderful, they are not only about growing trophies and for sure our deer herds are in need of improvement, forget meat hunting, that's dumb, it's all about antlers: bragging rights! GO ARs!!!

Ok i hope you ar lovers are happy now ya sent curly over the edge! LOL.

Hoytman, come to the dark side!