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Fawn Crop
#9154651
12/16/24 11:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532
Stompy
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532 |
I've been doing a lot of sitting here at the ranch, doing counts and general surveys of my deer age and population. Best I can tell, Doe to fawn ratio, I have somewhere in the 135% to 150% fawn crop this year. In 26 years here, I've never had a fawn crop like this. Getting rid of a bunch of coyotes (23 in 19 months) has really helped.
Now I'm looking at the problem of too many deer on the ranch, serious Doe harvest next year.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154664
12/17/24 12:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2,129
Texas452
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2,129 |
Getting rid of coyotes helps big time.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154673
12/17/24 12:34 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 14,710
ntxtrapper
THF Celebrity
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I got rid of several menopausal doe's over the last few years. Every doe I have seen this year has twins now.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154708
12/17/24 02:07 AM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,577
freerange
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,577 |
I haven’t done the math but we probably have close to 100%. Tons of cover.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154743
12/17/24 04:38 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,417
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
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I havent shot a coyote in years, and still seeing a fawn crop as good as eve, even in a drought yearr. Fawn crop is a function of health of the herd more than predators. fawning cover, food sources, and healthy doe make for a good fawn crop.
Every year I get concerned cuz I don't see them on camera, but come season, I realize I gotta shoot more doe.
Always gotta shoot more doe
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154751
12/17/24 05:06 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 14,710
ntxtrapper
THF Celebrity
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Predator control is a necessity in some places. I saw them kill almost every fawn here during a drought. It was a constant battle and I intervened in several chases.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154767
12/17/24 10:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,093
kry226
The General
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The General
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,093 |
I think I'm pretty close to 100-125%, ballpark, on fawn crop on my LF place. Timely rains have really helped the last few years, but I think there are a few other factors to consider.
While I have knocked a few yotes down, I'm sure I haven't made any meaningful dent in the predator population. However, there has been a conspicuous lack of hogs on my place since the Great Freeze. In those years since, I've only seen one sounder and about a dozen lone boars just passing through. Makes you wonder.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154780
12/17/24 12:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 499
MWTX270
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 499 |
This is the first year in several years, that I’ve seen a doe with twins. Also several does with single fawns. We have wayyyy too many coyotes here and I shoot every one I see. But with all the spring rains this year, guess there was enough cover for them to hide.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154786
12/17/24 12:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532
Stompy
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THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
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For me, on my ranch, coyotes have been a big problem. Good Sping rains and good cover absolutely help, but getting the coyotes numbers down has helped a lot. I've had many years here with great conditions and still only have a 60-80% fawn crop.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154787
12/17/24 12:41 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 603
fishbait
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 603 |
Stompy; With a high fence you can get your herd out of control...On a low fenced in 2018 I reduced my doe harvest from 21 down to 5, and I had 17 fawns at 57%. I was loosing my herd to over harvesting does......by 2020 I had 44 fawns at 98%. So to keep you out of trouble you will need a proven procedure to count deer!!! I would recommend you need to count your herd with a camera every 65 acres. You have 960 acres so you will need 15 cameras or you can divide your place up in four groups and only need 5 cameras and count in each group for four different surveys. You can have P&W come in and give ya count and help ya get an evaluation of your herd. How many doe tags did you get for your fenced in place before you fenced in and after you fenced in? I don't know what P&W would do ....so you may need to talk to someone that used them and get pointers. So....you can get in trouble fast in my opinion so don't wait long to get a program for your land. To control fawn production when it is too high I reduce my Mature does first and only. For every mature doe you will get probably 2 fawns.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154795
12/17/24 01:32 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 15,354
Hudbone
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i remember a wise old hunting sage, All Brothers, who indicated the first and most crucial step to any herd management program is to keep your buck to doe ratio in check. The second is to understand herd numbers could not get out of control.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154800
12/17/24 01:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532
Stompy
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THF Trophy Hunter
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I'm in contact with a biologist and STXranchman. I have a plan. This year is spikes and cull bucks with a few Does. Next year I'll be heavy on Does. My Doe population is pretty close to where it needs to be now. If I take to many Does this year I'll hurt my fawn crop for next year. These Doe fawns will take up the slack next year and I'll be able to take the older Does out.
I appreciate the advice, but I try to stay educated on the best I can. It helps that I live on the ranch and sit almost every day in a stand during hunting season. In fact, in the stand now.
Right now I'm about 11-12 acres per deer. 4 year round protein feeders and about 45 acres of fertilized wheat. I think I'd like to push that number up to 14-15 acres per deer. Still studying on that.
Last edited by Stompy; 12/17/24 02:11 PM.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154810
12/17/24 02:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,093
don k
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What I have found is that if coyotes have plenty of rats, mice and rabbits they are not so hard on fawns. Here where I live there is plenty of cover for fawns, yet the coyotes are hard on them. We do not have the rat and rabbit population that other parts of the state do so my Ibex, Mouflon, Blackbuck and Whitetail are their main diet. That is why I have to keep coyote eradication foremost in my efforts.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154872
12/17/24 03:49 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 603
fishbait
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 603 |
Stompy, You don't need my help...you're lined up already set up with plenty of help. As time goes so will your expertise on deer management. Good luck my friend.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154873
12/17/24 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 15,354
Hudbone
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Good thinking here - "Right now I'm about 11-12 acres per deer. 4 year round protein feeders and about 45 acres of fertilized wheat. I think I'd like to push that number up to 14-15 acres per deer. Still studying on that."
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: don k]
#9154887
12/17/24 04:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 16,446
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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What I have found is that if coyotes have plenty of rats, mice and rabbits they are not so hard on fawns. Here where I live there is plenty of cover for fawns, yet the coyotes are hard on them. We do not have the rat and rabbit population that other parts of the state do so my Ibex, Mouflon, Blackbuck and Whitetail are their main diet. That is why I have to keep coyote eradication foremost in my efforts. We've absolutely hammered the coyotes the last two years at my place, 600 acres in Mills county. 52 in 2 years. But my neighbors don't do squat. I've got two dens on east/west neighbors but due to the spring rains we've got tons of rabbits and rats right now. I haven't lost a lamb to predation in over a year (that I can directly link). My fawn crop is probably 60-80%, so they are still getting hit some. I will not reduce my efforts, but the abundant small game is certainly helping me out. Two years ago I lost about a lamb a week, even the larger ones (100#+).
Last edited by QuitShootinYoungBucks; 12/17/24 04:11 PM.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9154894
12/17/24 04:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,577
freerange
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,577 |
I’ve never noticed so many rabbits before. All over our cams.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9155074
12/17/24 09:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,417
Texas buckeye
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I will say again, Fawn survival is a sign of overall herd health. I do not disagree with anything being said above, and people with better heads and lots more experience will be able to give much better arguments about this or that, and it's all good.
Basic biology says an animal population will keep itself in check over time. it does this in a variety of ways, but the number one manner is as population increases, food sources and suitable living conditions decrease while diseases increase and animals become less likely to survive from predation and starvation and natural attrition. As populations subsequently decrease, food sources and suitable living conditions increase, diseases are less communicable, and all this leads to less natural attrition. This should plateau and mean a near constant population if left to nature, aside from disasters such as severe drought, extreme weather/fire, extreme winters, but even then with sustained weather patterns the population will again plateau to a new "normal" population.
We use terms in deer biology such as carrying capacity to denote the maximal amount of deer that can inhabit a certain area so it maximizes deer hunting opportunity but does not inhibit the population negatively. Sometimes, as stumpy is stating, we need to re-evaluate the carrying capacity in an area so that the deer become healthier and more able to sustain themselves optimally. This is a decision only HF deer managers can really make, as a LF deer manager will be simply fighting the influx of deer from neighboring property if they make their property too luxurious for deer. This is does not mean we LF folks can not manage deer somewhat, just not to the levels of HF managers. LF managers need to focus on habitat, food sources, and age structure. We (LF hunters) need not concern ourselves with carrying capacity since that is something we can never control given the WT deers ability to jump.
Fawn crop is one indicator of overall population health.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#9155093
12/17/24 10:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532
Stompy
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532 |
I will say again, Fawn survival is a sign of overall herd health. I do not disagree with anything being said above, and people with better heads and lots more experience will be able to give much better arguments about this or that, and it's all good.
Basic biology says an animal population will keep itself in check over time. it does this in a variety of ways, but the number one manner is as population increases, food sources and suitable living conditions decrease while diseases increase and animals become less likely to survive from predation and starvation and natural attrition. As populations subsequently decrease, food sources and suitable living conditions increase, diseases are less communicable, and all this leads to less natural attrition. This should plateau and mean a near constant population if left to nature, aside from disasters such as severe drought, extreme weather/fire, extreme winters, but even then with sustained weather patterns the population will again plateau to a new "normal" population.
We use terms in deer biology such as carrying capacity to denote the maximal amount of deer that can inhabit a certain area so it maximizes deer hunting opportunity but does not inhibit the population negatively. Sometimes, as stumpy is stating, we need to re-evaluate the carrying capacity in an area so that the deer become healthier and more able to sustain themselves optimally. This is a decision only HF deer managers can really make, as a LF deer manager will be simply fighting the influx of deer from neighboring property if they make their property too luxurious for deer. This is does not mean we LF folks can not manage deer somewhat, just not to the levels of HF managers. LF managers need to focus on habitat, food sources, and age structure. We (LF hunters) need not concern ourselves with carrying capacity since that is something we can never control given the WT deers ability to jump.
Fawn crop is one indicator of overall population health. You're giving me a headache. And it's Stompy
Last edited by Stompy; 12/17/24 10:27 PM.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9155115
12/17/24 10:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,417
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
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Let me simplify, and there are a ton of factors that go into each step here but this is a large generalization:
Nature says as population increases, living conditions go downward and the population will rtend downward as well. This includes fawn recruitment/crop, and a low fawn crop will indicate a stressed population level for that area.
As population decreases, living conditions trend upward, so a positive population trend will occur. This is when you see good fawn crops, and this indicates the deer population is in a good place compared to carrying capacity for the area.
Hope that makes more sense. .
Stompy, sounds like you are off to a great start in your HF management. I look forward to seeing the fruits of your work as time goes on. I would love to have a living experiment such as a HF place....in reality, it is all a grand experiment and you will find what works to give the best results you are looking for.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9155219
12/18/24 02:34 AM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 15,354
Hudbone
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Stumpy, take that simplification and be done with it. You are now a better man.
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Hudbone]
#9155228
12/18/24 02:55 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532
Stompy
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532 |
Stumpy, take that simplification and be done with it. You are now a better man. Sometimes ya just got to know when to be quiet..
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9155293
12/18/24 12:02 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,590
bobcat1
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,590 |
John, I think you are on the right track and you are certainly asking the right people like STX and biologists. Keep studying and implementing. I have no doubt you will achieve your goals.
Bobby Barnett
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: Stompy]
#9155871
12/19/24 12:56 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 603
fishbait
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 603 |
Stompy...For fun, I thought I would insert some of your approximate numbers in my computer and give ya an idea what it would look like for your property...just approx.
Bucks = 37 Does = 45 Fawns = 32 as 70% Density = 11.54 Ratio = 1.22
LOL..good luck young man
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Re: Fawn Crop
[Re: fishbait]
#9155890
12/19/24 02:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532
Stompy
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
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OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,532 |
Stompy...For fun, I thought I would insert some of your approximate numbers in my computer and give ya an idea what it would look like for your property...just approx.
Bucks = 37 Does = 45 Fawns = 32 as 70% Density = 11.54 Ratio = 1.22
LOL..good luck young man
The way I see it, if I want to kill 4 trophy bucks a year at 6 1/2 years old that means 24 bucks on the ranch that are of trophy quality. So yea, I'll need to carry about 35 bucks or so because not all will be trophy class and some may die of other causes. Doe I'm thinking no more than 40, and fawn crop varies. As fawn crop varies so will the harvesting of Does. My thoughts anyway. Your numbers are pretty close to mine.
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