I noticed Hornady is starting to promote the 25 Creedmoor with brass and bullets, seems like 2025 would be the natural year for it be released as a factory cartridge/rifle and all the murmurings point to that. What have y'all heard? Maybe 25 PRC instead, or a completely different 25?

Hornady stays out front.

I have no doubt they will push the quarter bore Creedmoor.

I already have a reamer. Berger makes some good bullets for it. I'm going to see what it can do.

I got on this train a couple years ago, It is a good round. With Alpha making brass for it now, it is even easier.

Only 2 bullets in market really to support it. I’m sure Hornady will release and eldx and Eldm

I'd bet a paycheck that they do.

Mo fasta than a 6.5 mm

More bullet weight and BC than a 6 mm.

That's what I see in it.

Whats the barrel life?

At least 800, I know that much. Im out of Blackjack's, Im about to try the 133 Bergers, however the new 138 ELDM looks promising. It will make it easier for the NRL hunter guys to make power factor.

I’d be interested if I didn’t already have a 6.5CM.

I wish Hornady would do some kind of 7mm short action cartridge. Something like the 7 Sherman Short would be sweet

I know the .260 Rem and the 6.5 Creedmoor are shot out at 2500 rounds. 140 gr at 2780 fps.

My educated guess is the 25 Creedmoor won't quite make 2000 rounds.

I've called brass makers, asking nicely to make 7mm-08 A.I. They don't want to spend the money on it because it isn't popular enough. I explained that it would be popular if we were not relegated to only fire forming or hydro forming brass. If you build it, they will come.

If someone would make 7mm-08 A.I. brass, that would be my next build.

I saw your write-up on Tactical Gun Review, 162 gr 7mm bullet at 2800+ fps, and with the low recoil of the 7-08, such an amazing all-around cartridge!

A lot of 7-08 ai shots factory 7-08 loads very very well. When you figure you need 100 -200 rds for barrel to speed up, it’s a when when

While fire forming, you're getting 7mm-08 ballistics.

Time and again, I've seen them shoot 1/4 MOA while forming brass.

Like Bobo said, getting 200 pieces of brass and just run it, until they are all formed. After that, your barrel is in premium shape. Do your next load development.

Does someone make 7mm-08 A.I. dies for after the brass is fire-formed? This sounds like a better option than a 7mm SAUM because 7mm-08 brass is easy to get then you just fire form it.

I have Redding 7mm-08 Ackley Improved dies.

You may have to wait on them, but they will get to you eventually.

Thanks for your help JG!

Build a 7mm SAW, it’s the same thing. You can get brass and from West TX Ordnance.

https://westtexordnance.com/home-extended/special-cartridges/7mm-saw/

Redding and SAC dies are available. SAC is in stock.



7mm SAW is not really the same thing. Relying on small primers to run higher pressures in a lower volume chamber.

Not exactly apples to apples it’s not a bad round either.

Today was Peterson .308 SRP necked down to 7mm-08, and loaded with a CCI-450. Fire forming in a 7mm-08 A.I. chamber.

It worked extremely well.

Dang, reading about the 7mm SAW, I'm liking it a lot. Can buy brass and dies from WTO. Seems like an easy set up to use and reload. Their Switchlug product is interesting too. Makes it really easy to rebarrel a rifle.

How is the 7mm Shaw different than 7mm-08 AI? Is it just the SRP brass? 7mm-08 AI can be made using SRP brass also.

The ballistics look almost identical from what I'm seeing. The main benefit I see is you can buy brass for it, no fire forming required. It's also the same length as .308 brass so if you want to buy .308 brass to make 7mm SAW brass, you just run it through the sizing die and load.

Yesterday, this was Peterson .308 SRP necked down to 7mm-08, CCI-450, and getting fire formed in a 7mm-08 A.I. chamber.



The necked down brass has a bit of a donut at the bottom of the case neck. It makes it tough to get the bolt to rotate closed. Muscle it down and fire it. Out comes 7mm-08 A.I. brass.

Noticed 25 Creedmoor is officially SAAMI spec'd now: https://saami.org/technical-information/cartridge-chamber-drawings/

Seems like an open secret based on SHOT Show coverage that it will be released sometime this year. I'm curious where it falls with respect to with the other 25s like 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06? Is it more of a 257 Roberts with higher BC bullets or more of a 25-06 with higher BC bullets? If it's the former, I'm guessing a 25 PRC won't be far behind?

Muscle it down and fire it. Out comes 7mm-08 A.I. brass.

hammer time

I have both a 25PRC and a new 25 Creedmoor. You can run 134 gr Hornady at 3100 in the PRC and I am running the 134’s at 2940 from the 25 Creedmoor with a 22 inch barrel.
I am fairly certain Hornady will not introduce the PRC in 25 caliber. Too overbore for their tastes.
I am kinda liking the 25 Creedmoor. If they restrict bullet length to same as 6.5 Creedmoor it makes powder choices limiting without compressing powder….those are some loooong bullets.
So far 6.5 StaBall is the winner in speed and shoots good. I want to find a stick powder that gives good velocity but it’s been tougher than I thought it would be without heavy compression. Reloader 17 would be perfect but a little on the temperature sensitive side for me. N555 gets you to high 2800’s,Reloder 26 is too slow , H4831 may end up ok and it’s about right burn rate but havent finished testing it but first try it was slow on speed.

So whatcha think an 18” barrel would hit with 134’s in 25CM

Too slow...slowmoor. Stick to the 6 or 22.

What barrel lengths are your speeds from, DStroud? I ask because I have all the parts to make a 25SAUM and just a barrel short for a 6PRC but been busy shooting/building stuff for other folks lately.

It should essentially be a .250 RCBS Improved (28 degree shoulder?), and maybe not significantly different than .250 Ackley Improved (40 degree shoulder), with a faster barrel twist.

I’m scared she is about to draw some pretty impressive tags and I’m going to be in a bind… think I need to start ordering 6cm components just to be safe. Sucks both are left eyed dominant and I’m right

Both 25 PRC and 25 Creedmoor have 22 inch barrels.

I am building a 20" suppressed 25 Creedmoor next week. 135 gr Bergers is what I will be loading in it.

Higher BC than 6mm and 6.5mm. More bullet wright than 6mm. Higher velocity than 6.5mm. My bet is the porridge is just right.

thanks DS...

I think it is just right for that case. My old reamer I used was the Blackjack reamer, those bullets are all gone now, and so is my old rifle. Im going to build myself a new one soon, I have a new reamer and will use the 133 and 135 Bergers. Im also thinking about a 25-7mm PRC, it would hang with the 257 Wby.

Mine was done with the new Hornady suggested reamer which held it up a while.
I know I can seat 134’s out to 2.850 to give more room for powder if your magazine will allow.

Does this mean that .25 caliber does not suck anymore??

It sucked for long range shooting, now it doesn't.

Heavy, high BC bullets were made. And then barrel makers built barrels to stabilize those bullets.

Really hope they drop the Creedmoor name and give it something new.

No it’s going to be Creedmoor. Boy I bet Hornady would get raked over the coals if they called it something else. I could hear it now “Hornady is trying to market a plain ole Creedmoor with a new name to increase sales it’s just a bunch of hype”
IMO when you have designed and produced the most popular cartridge of the past 50 years or so you just roll with it.

And what exactly is the advantage of this cartridge over existing .25 caliber cartridges such as the 25-06?

Barrel twist rate to stabilize long high BC bullets. Efficient case geometry, making decent velocity, without the added power and recoil of the .25-06

If the 25-06 had a 1-8 twist instead of 1-10 the advantage would go to 25-06 in terms of speed with longer heavier BC bullets, as it has higher case capacity , but might have feeding length issues since CM case is designed for longer bullets.

But biggest thing would be ammo support for larger higher BC bullets.

And in the rifle match shooting world, competitors need to witness their own impact or more importantly their miss, so they can make a correction on a follow-up shot. The 25-06 is going to make that more difficult, than the short action Creedmoor. The 6 Dasha had become one of the cartridges that moved from Bench Rest to PRS style shooting, due to low recoil.

25 Creedmoor in an AR-10 could be an interesting longer range hog catcher, less recoil than 6.5 CM/Rem, 7mm-08, and 308, a little more energy/bigger hole/better penetration than 243. By and large I mainly shoot cartridges that are at least 100 years old but it might be fun to jump on the bandwagon for once.

And fits in a SA platform.

The .25 and .27 caliber cartridges that became popular and so common were pretty much born and popularized in the new era of "high velocity" starting late in the 19th century when the new capabilities of smokeless powder were being realized. Since velocity was the focus, bullet weights were kept low to accent the new feature. As an example, the .250-3000 (aka .250 Savage) was conceived as a 3000 fps cartridge (hence the name) but it was found that using the powders available at the time 3000 fps could not be achieved with 100-grain bullets. By reducing bullet weight to 87 grains, they were able to legitimately claim they had developed a 3000 fps cartridge. Twist rates were adopted based on the need, and since .25-caliber cartridges were going to use existing bullets those low twist rates persisted. The.25-06 basically was hamstrung by things that began to happen long before AO Neidner ever though to neck the .30-06 down to .257 inch.

The very high muzzle velocity was more important with the 3-9X Duplex scopes. 200 yard zero, and you're in deer vitals to 300, maybe 400 yards.

The advancements and availability of rifle scopes, that make the distance not such a daunting task. And the very high muzzle velocity is not nearly as important as it used to be. The most extreme example is the long range .22 lr shooters. The farthest I've hit with a .22 lr is 300 yards. A 7mm-08 at 300 yards is 1.0 Mil. My .22 lr at 300 yards was 13.5 Mils. The scope doesn't care if you need 1.0 or 13.5 to get you on target.

The shooter has to WANT to take advantage of newer scopes in order for that to work. Lot's of shooters that still chase velocity because they don't want to dial and don't want to hold over.

Exactly right.

Scopes were not even a part of the discussion in those days.

Outside of factory rifles, barrel (rifling) twist is not cartridge dependent. Krieger, Hart, Douglas, Lilja, etc. all offer .25 caliber barrels with twists as fast a 1-7". With a case capacity 20% greater than the 6.5 Creedmoor, one would think the 25-06 would far outclass the cartridge being discussed here. A possibly better one, although without quite as much potential as the 25-06 would be the .257 Ackley Improved. But we all find reason to justify the things we like (self included!).

The .25-06 would definitely have an advantage with the same bullet, but as you know the trade-off when you get overbore is barrel life. Recoil also becomes a consideration (for PRS shooters, and such).

I could be persuaded to use a 257 AI. Ballistically very similar to the 260 and 6.5 CM. I suppose I should find out how the 25 CM compares (which I might know if I’d read this whole thread).

These threads are enlightening to me. Always over my head, but the more I read the closer I get.

FYI, the .250 AI is remarkably similar to the CM (the .257 AI would give room for a bit more powder).

Advantage of the CM would be 1) easy availability of quality brass (though CM can be used as donor brass for the .250 AI), and 2) barrel twist rate more suitable for stabilizing heavy-for-caliber, high BC bullets, if interested in any long range shooting.

Well, the 250 AI and the CM, having the same basic case, should be very similar. The 257 AI should be a bit stouter, having more powder. Seems to me the 25 CM should appeal more to the target guys, but having CM tacked on to the name will have hunters wanting it too. Just the latest shiny object…

If they called it the 25 Buzzmore, would it sell as well?

The faster twist is good for heavier bullets for better penetration as well. The very fast twist of the 6.5x55 stabilizing the 156 grain bullets was its key to success as a moose getter. .257 caliber 134 grainers have an SD of .290, just a hair above .264 140 grainers at .287 which have good penetration in their own right even if they lag the .32 SD of the .264 156 grainers. .290 beats the SD of 180 grain .30 calibers and 160 grain .28 calibers too.

If success is measured by twist and penetration, get new barrel for your 257 or 250. Should be cheaper than a new rifle. But, I am in no way criticizing the 25 CM. Maybe it fills a gap, or maybe it creates a new gap and fills it. Either way it gets you to buy a new rifle, cause we sure weren’t gonna buy another 250, 257, or 25-06.

Now we wait for the 24 Creedmoor…

That would be 6mm Creedmoor. It was the first wildcat from the 6.5 Creedmoor, many years ago. It has been a SAAMI spec cartridge for quite a while.

If memory serves, the next wildcat was 22 Creedmoor. Which was Horizon Firearms necking down 6mm Creedmoor brass into .224

The 25 Creedmoor was the latest wildcat, and is also a SAAMI spec cartridge.

The Creedmoor has followed the same path as the .308 Win. A parent case with the necks changed to create new cartridges from it.

.243 Win
.260 Rem
7mm-08
.338 Fed

I think I will do a 17 Creed lol

My curiosity is a 7mm Creedmoor. How it stacks up against 7mm-08 A.I.

I know the case capacity of both. And I know the usual powder charge the A.I. receives, the Creedmoor should hold it. But that case geometry change, I don't know what it would do to external ballistics.

I'm not curious enough to have a custom reamer made, though.

Hornady has a pattern if you think back. GA Precision had the first run of the 6mm Creedmoor brass and sold it a while as Hornady watched to see if it would catch on. Then GAP did similar with the new 6GT with them guaranteeing Hornady a certain market for X amount of brass with exclusive rights for two years. Then Horizon did same with 22 Creedmoor so they committed to xx millions rounds before Hornady made the first cartridge. Now same is happening with 25 Creedmoor.

Can’t believe I forgot about the 6mm CM.

Mark at SAC has been building them for years. They won’t make the speed that a 708ai will.

Never loaded for a 6.5 cm but from reading it doesn’t even beat the 260, don’t see why a 7mm CM would beat the 7mm08 or the AI version.

It doesn't beat the .260, it shoots the same as a .260, doing it with a grain less powder.

Creedmoors are usually loaded with H-4350.

7mm-08 A.I. is often loaded with H-Varget. The amount of H-Varget that goes into a 7mm-08 A.I. with a 162 gr bullet, the Creedmoor brass will also hold it.

So if Remington had done a better job of supporting the .260, then Hornady might not have gotten their foot in the door like they did with the 6.5 Creed, and if that hadn't happened then maybe there'd have been no 6mm Creed or .22 Creed and maybe there'd be no thread on THF about the .25 Creedmoor. And I would not have typed this.

But then again, who's to say...

If grasshoppers carried .44s the birds wouldn't mess with 'em.

Remington could screw up a free lunch, when it came to supporting their cartridges.

6.5 RSAUM never took off either. Not compared to the 6.5 PRC.

Look at the brass side by side...

708ai has 58 grains of case capacity give or take depending on brass, Creed is 52.5 give or take. Not a ton of difference but enough that it simply won’t keep up. 6.5 rsaum was never a Remington offering. It was a pet project of George Gardner and he paid Hornady to make the brass. It worked well enough that Hornady decided to go all in, but they didn’t want anything to do with a Remington round. So they came up with the 6.5 prc. But ya, Remington is about as good at business as the dems are at running a government.

It might mean the Creedmoor would be more case fill, which is good. I've yet to see a 7mm-08 A.I. allow you to get to 100% cash fill with Varget. It's going to shoot tight and make velocity well before 100% case fill. After that, the brass is going to want you to stop adding powder.

I started doing some testing with H4350 on the 7-08 ai but found a Varget load I like so much I dropped the project. It does have better case fill with the 4350 and there may be something there but I’ll never know.

Two years ago, I got a call to develop a load for 7mm-08, for a hand loader. He had all the components, he just needed me to figure out the recipe. He asked me what I thought about H-4350 in the cartridge. My educated guess was the load would end up being a compressed load, but still not making the velocity that H-Varget would make. He said the main reason for using H-4350 was because he had a big supply of it. We moved forward with the project. My educated guess was correct. A safe, compressed load, but less velocity than H-Varget would have been making. It shot tight, it was just slower.

Granted, that was standard 7mm-08, and not Ackley Improved. I have not tested H-4350 in Ackley Improved, because if it ain't broke don't try and fix it. Meaning no need to stray away from H-Varget. So, I don't know what I don't know. If your 7mm-08 A.I. barrel is 24", H-4350 might be a good powder. 200 yard paper and a chronograph would tell the tale.

I do have a 24” barrel but will run out of A-Tips with about a thousand rounds left on the barrel. If I try a different bullet instead of buying more of them I may pursue the 4350. I have plenty of both powders. I wish the A-Tips didn’t shoot so dang good for me, they’re high siding bad in price.

I tested H-4350 in my standard 20” 7-08 years ago with a 162 ELD-M. My experience mirrors J.G.’s. A full compressed load at book max was a good 80 fps + slower than my Varget load. It shot good, but the speed wasn’t there. Just too slow a powder for that short barrel. You might see some appreciable gains in a 24” barrel, as I’ve heard guys getting good velocity with it in longer barrels.

When I was a teenager 40+ years ago, my Dad built me a .257 AI on a 1910 Mauser action. I liked it rather well, but if I had it to do over again, I would've just built or bought a 25-06. These boutique and wildcat cartridges can be a bit of a pain in the buttocks with most of the gain being in our minds or what we see from advertising.

I have never shot a 25 creed but I love the quarter bores. I have a 25x47 Lapua that is an absolute tack driver. I shoot 135gr Bergers with it.

This is the first ten rounds down the barrel with a total stab in the dark at the load.





Here is after a little development. I pulled one of them three are within 0.19”.This is the best ES/SD of any rifle I have ever shot.

The 7 SAW is legit. I have only fired mine about twenty times but really like it. 162gr ELD-M @ 2,730

One thing I see the 25 Creedmoor doing, is allowing NRL Hunter division shooters to make power factor with the 25 CM. You can not get there with the 6mm options. But the 25 CM will get there with the heavier 133 Berger, 134 ELDM and 135 Berger Hyb. I'm already seeing this as a request. There are a few little tricks and options you can do to get your speeds up even higher for the increased speed for the "ties"!

Sweet-looking setup!