For those that like to delve into such documents, the new waterfowl population status report just came out.

https://www.fws.gov/media/waterfowl-population-status-2024
https://www.fws.gov/sites/default/f...erfowl-population-status-report-2024.pdf

The DU site has a good summary of it.
https://www.ducks.org/conservation/waterfowl-surveys/2024-duck-numbers

Looks like in 2025 we go back to a 9 day Teal season, but we may get a three Pintail bag limit.

So with the 3 pintail, any stipulation on hen limits? Surely they aren't going to allow more than 1 hen pintail out of the 3 pintails in your bag.

I doubt it, but I guess we will know when they adopt the 2025-26 pintail limit. More on it: https://deltawaterfowl.org/usfws-adopts-new-harvest-strategy-for-pintails/

Modern day hunting pressure doesn’t effect waterfowl populations- in January the last few weeks of the season, both 2023 and 2024 we could have shot many 6 man limits of pintail drakes. We were covered up

So when does harvest matter?

Why doesn't all the lower 48 states have the same limits and season lengths as Mexico and Canada?

I thought the 3 pintail limit was on the pacific flyway?

I think it's across all flyways. But the states still have the option to adopt it or not.

You are smarter than that Greek. I know the Usfws says it....but come on people. It is so simple i need help understanding. How can shooting and killing an animal not have an impact on the population??? These same people said market hunting and punt guns put a damper on em back in the day. If they did, what do you think these big time clubs that tout season kill numbers in the thousands are doing??? Duck hunting isn’t catch and release

It looks like the three pintail limit is basically a research trial. Originally from Jan/Feb 2025 DU magazine.
https://www.fws.gov/story/new-era-pintail-regulations

While harvest can affect pintail survival and population size, scientists agree that its effect is small compared to that of annual breeding habitat conditions. A key outcome of the new modeling effort is a recognition of the potential for more liberal bag limits without jeopardizing the health of the pintail population. The new strategy also attempts to address concerns of state agencies and their constituents regarding restrictive pintail regulations under previous harvest strategies. However, given the limited experience with three-pintail bag limits in recent years, the new strategy is being implemented on an interim basis and will be monitored annually to address any issues that may emerge. After a three-pintail bag limit has been implemented for three waterfowl seasons, which do not necessarily have to occur in consecutive years, the Service and Flyway Councils will reevaluate the strategy to decide if it meets the objectives and make changes if needed. Following are frequently asked questions about the new approach, its implications for duck hunters, and what we can expect from population management in the coming years.

And the article addresses the other question too.

Does the new harvest strategy for pintails include different bag limits for drakes and hens?
No. The new strategy does not include sex restrictions. Any combination of male and female pintails may be legally harvested as long as the total does not exceed the allowable pintail limit. Though it might seem counterintuitive, the most recent research and scientific modeling show us that restricting the harvest of female pintails would not meaningfully affect the subsequent breeding population. Another underlying objective of the new strategy is to minimize the complexity of regulations.

2024 BPOP numbers had pintail at 1.98 million birds. Down from 2.22 million in 2023.

If pintail numbers drop below 1.3 million. Pintail season is closed entirely.

Increasing the limit 3x has to have some negative consequences on the population.

I think as hunters we have to ask ourselves. Do we want 1 pintail per day or none, bc there is a really good chance populations drop below the 1.3mill in the next 2-3 years with the increasing the limit to 3x. Especially if it remains relatively dry on the prairies.

I couldn't find any pintail harvest rates per north America on Google. Its just says the pintail harvest rate is unknown. Surely that data is known, if it's not, it crazy to think they want to increase limits 3x. Which I suspect they really don't know, bc HIP doesn't ask for specific duck species.

From what I understand there has been very little snow fall on the prairies so far this winter and looks to be another tough year for duck production.

?????? Instead of scientific modeling, let’s use real world sense. Harvesting of breeding pintail hens will affect the subsequent breeding population. Anyone who says it doesn’t is unfamiliar with any type of animal(wildlife or domestic) breeding and multiplication table. And if you don’t know much about animals in general, which apparently a lot don’t, you could relate it to compound interest.

Goodness, do they really think people believe anything they put out? I’m confused as to why time, effort, and money were spent on predator management and paying farmers to not disc within a couple hundred yards of wetlands(mini CRP)??? It’s just a few pintail hens.

Yeah the whole system needs to be looked at. Across the board. Same thing is happening with the Sandhills cranes I bet it drops to 2 in the next few years.

Don't shoot the messenger. I was just sharing the link from the USFW. I personally would prefer we go back to the 1988 duck limit. Pressure was low, I could take my 3 ducks easily without long walks or boat rides, no need to camp out on spots, and repeat every day.

I agree 100% Lets give the birds a well deserved break.

This 3 pintail thing(all of which can be hens) is really something wild. In an already declining population that we don’t have a solid answer for, let’s triple the allowed harvest...that’ll help them out. I know a random single pintail drake is taken here and there, but in a lot of situations, if one pintail is shot, 3 could’ve been. Mallards are way down as well.

Hunter harvesting doesn’t affect populations, based on just about all studies I have seen. We have seen piles of pintails, 90% drakes, the last 3 years. I don’t think it will matter.

So, out of the 3, only 1 hen permitted? All hens, I don’t agree with.

Once again, let’s do away with models and scientific studying, use real sense. Common sense, if there is any left out there. How can killing something not have an impact on the population?

And the article addresses the other question too.

Does the new harvest strategy for pintails include different bag limits for drakes and hens?
No. The new strategy does not include sex restrictions. Any combination of male and female pintails may be legally harvested as long as the total does not exceed the allowable pintail limit. Though it might seem counterintuitive, the most recent research and scientific modeling show us that restricting the harvest of female pintails would not meaningfully affect the subsequent breeding population. Another underlying objective of the new strategy is to minimize the complexity of regulations.



From snipers post above, I take it that you can shoot 3 pintail hens.

It does, but all the studies have shown that by far the greatest impact on duck numbers is the condition of the breeding grounds in the spring and summer. Also, hunter related mortality is a drop in the bucket in the big picture.

Long story short, the claim is that having 10%+ more hens make it back up north means nothing if the breeding grounds aren't right. On the flip side, a smaller population can rebound fast under the right conditions and have the same production in numbers as a larger population.

Their data, not mine, but I do avoid taking hentails. Of the 12 I took this year, all were drakes.

And how many hens get shot each year? How do they know how many were killed altogether? When I do my HIP to get a license, how they know if my 44 ducks were gadwalls or pintail hens? They are studying and coming up with all these educated theories without concrete data and/or statistics

I think the HIP survey is mostly only used to select hunters for the diary and wing surveys. I have been selected for one of these a few times over the years. I have been asked to participate a lot of times if I include the ones for migratory bird species other than waterfowl. Those secondary waterfowl surveys of course indicate sex, and with the wing survey would include age and sex after inspecting the wings sent in. Of course they are only able to get a small portion of hunter data to use to get a best guess on the whole due to funding and manpower, but for hunter surveys that is how it is done. Waterfowl breeding surveys are done by flyovers and counting birds seen and have their own problems. I remember reading one of the things they may have been doing was for example if three lone mallard drakes were seen on a flooded pothole, they would count three nesting hens on an assumption even though they did not actually see the hens.

https://www.fws.gov/sites/default/f...-2022-23-and-2023-24-hunting-seasons.pdf

In 28 years of having a texas hunting license I have never received or heard of such....pretty small data sample

I've been asked once in nearly 30 years to do the wing survey.

HIP should be an app on our phone that we have to report all species shot, along with hen or drake.

I'm in agreement they(TP&W and USFW) doesn't have a clue on what species, hens or drakes, or an accurate number of waterfowl we as hunters shoot every season. Mostly bc they make half [censored] attempts at gathering that information.

We are going to find out how true the theory of harvest doesn't effect populations is when they increase the pintail limit to 3x.

If pintail numbers plummet, then harvest might have a greater impact on populations than what some consider it does. Which will open up a whole new can of worms. Hopefully it doesn't result in drastic cuts on season dates and limits.

Personally I would much rather see regulations that cut out spinning wing decoys and all other electronic decoys and decoy movers, no hunting past noon, cut limits back but not days. Example I'd much rather see early teal season stay at 16 days but cut the likit to 3 per day than be a 9 day season with the limit 6 per day. Which in 2025 we will have a 9 day early teal season bc the population has dropped.

You have 7 chickens, coon tears in the pen and kills 2, how many chickens do you have now? The population was affected.

We have 1.85 million pintails supposedly, 124,684 were harvested last year, how many do we have now?....I have no idea how many were harvested and neither do they.

You are spot on

Because they want actual data from harvests. My guess is if you use 0 0 0 on HIP some years like many choose do do no matter how many birds they take, your guaranteed not to get asked for the diary survey. They choose the wing survey participants from the diary surveys. Again just guessing but they are probably also choosing repeat participants from those who previously participated as a way to get a higher return of data. Ways this may not be perfect. Common sense tells me that participants are likely more seasoned waterfowl hunters who choose to shoot more drakes than hens than the overall number of hunters. And the number of hunter participants for the surveys have to be limited to a few thousand due to lack of manpower and funding. I can think of others, but those would be two big ones.

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What We Do
The Fish and Wildlife Service monitors migratory game bird harvest in the United States. The Branch of Monitoring and Data Management (BMDM) within the Migratory Bird Program uses the Harvest Information Program (HIP) to select hunters for the Migratory Bird Hunter/Harvest Survey (Diary Survey) and the Parts Collection Survey (Wing Survey). All hunters are asked to complete HIP but a smaller sample of hunters are sent the Diary Survey and Parts Collection Survey. The smaller sample is based on HIP responses.

The survey program has three steps:
Step 1-Harvest Information Program (HIP)

All migratory bird hunters are required to fill out HIP when they register for their hunting license. These registration questions include name, address, and hunting activity from the past season. See the Our Laws and Regulations section below for more information.

Step 2-Migratory Bird Hunter Survey (Diary Survey)

We send hunters selected for the Diary Survey a hunting diary form. This form asks for the date, county, and number of birds taken for every hunt. There are five separate surveys for five species or species groups: 1) doves and band-tailed pigeons, 2) waterfowl (ducks, sea ducks, geese, and brant), 3) American woodcock, 4) rails, gallinules, coots, snipe, and 5) sandhill cranes. These surveys are important because they give us harvest estimates for these species/species groups.

Hunters can find the online Diary Survey at https://www.fws.gov/harvestsurvey.

Step 3-Parts Collection Survey (Wing Survey)

To collect information about harvest by species, age, and sex, we conduct Wing Surveys. We select some successful hunters from the Diary Survey and ask them if they are willing to send us parts from the birds that they harvested. Hunters send a wing from each bird they shoot (or tail feather from each goose).

There are three independent wing surveys: (1) waterfowl, (2) mourning dove, and (3) woodcock, rail & band-tailed pigeon.

Biologists at “wingbees” examine wings to determine the birds’ species, age, and sex. Woodcock wings can help us determine their age and sex ratios. Mourning dove and band-tailed pigeon wings can help us determine their age ratios. Rail wings can help us determine their species.

The Diary and Wing Surveys help us estimate how many ducks of different species, ages, and sex were harvested during a hunting season. The surveys also allow us to estimate species and age-specific harvest for geese. We also use age ratios to calculate reproduction rates. Reproduction plays an important role in keeping migratory bird populations stable.

Hunter information is critical to our understanding of migratory bird populations! Annual participation in HIP and the Diary and Wing surveys contributes to wildlife conservation and management.

And when was the last time pintails had a bountiful rebounding nesting season?

The 10% making it back north claim could be true for one year, but run that 10% number over the course of several years....especially when the population is only 1.8

BTW, I was asked to do the US Fish and Wildlife daily hunt surveys for Texas Woodcock and Oklahoma Waterfowl this season. I focused most of my bird hunting on quail, snipe, and Texas wood ducks this season. I did not have much to participate in those surveys with so I had forgot to enter the daily hunts and only today changed my entry to a season total survey to close it out. As I posted before I have been asked to do quite a few of these types of things over maybe 45 years of bird hunting. If you ever get asked, be sure to participate. As often as I get them, past participation has to have something to do with it. And maybe be sure to enter true HIP numbers for ever state you get a license in.

I don't know how many of yall follow Doug Osborne. But Doug works with the university of Arkansas and has conducted alot of research and studies over the last decade.

He has no agenda, but to report his findings. When he is reporting duck nunbers are as low as ever in the past 10 years. There's a problem.

Thanks for sharing the Osborne post. He provides real data based on decades of field experience. His comments about ducks not showing up after the season closes is highly alarming. He is there in the field and has been there recording data for years.

If the downward trend in populations is going to be stopped it has to be a grassroots movement. It will not come from USFWS, TPWD, LDWF, etc. Waterfowl managers at least at the highest levels that make the decisions have no incentive to lower limits or days because they would have too much political backlash.

It will also not come from anybody in the hunting business. There is way too much money at stake for anyone in the business to raise any red flags. Sadly, these are the folks that have the most to lose if/when the population crashes. Unfortunately, there is too much emphasis on “making piles” and not enough emphasis on conservation in that crowd. (I used to have my own guide service so I am more than a casual observer on this issue.)


Just my 2 cents.
Big Hutch

Spot on Hutch! Too much $$$ at stake.

Agreed!!!!!! And they justify their actions of doing nothing by saying “hunter kill numbers have no noticeable impact on the population” to appease the pockets. What amazes me is the number of people that drink the kool aid. But, they’re starting to realize

I quit duck hunting when they forced steel shot on us. Seems that lead shot is not the problem.

what can we do to band together and get someone in the fed's to listen and drive change?