I really wish I could post this on the trading thread but I know there is no way it would survive. But I for the life of me do not understand why people ask for bill of sales. I mean, I know why they think they need to, but they do not realize how useless it is and how many potential buyer the lose.

First, you cut your buyer pool by more than half. On another forum where we were able to take a poll it was upwards of 90%, but I think on here its not that high. But it without a doubt half.

Second, I sold guns for 16 years all over the country and have been involved in hundreds if not thousands of traces and I have never in my life seen a bill of sale matter. And here in Texas why would it? You have no obligation in Texas as long as you do not know that person is going to use it in a crime or is not allowed to own it. A bill of sale tells you none of that.

Better safe than sorry??? Absolutely not. If you do have a bill of sale and try to use it in your own defense a prosecutor will turn it against you in a heartbeat. 'If you were so concerned this person was going to use it in a crime or a felon and you had them sign a BOS why did you not use an FFL to run a check?' I would not want to have that argument used against me in Austin or Houston.

And last, the ATF is cracking down on profits. You sure you want to create receipts??


It is just a bad idea and does absolutely nothing to protect you or anyone else. It just makes you feel good while limiting your ability to actually sell the gun. If you are that concerned have them fill out a 4473. But don't ask for bill of sales.

Rant over.

I’m usually not concerned about a BOS post but the ones looking for a LTC are just scrolled on by.

Yea I do the same thing.

Putting in your ad that you want a BOS can act as a deterrent that will prevent people who have no business buying a gun from contacting you in the first place. It can also keep a normal buyer who wants to keep the government out of their business from contacting you as well. A BOS doesn't help you one bit once the law has reason to knock on your door.

I am not sure that I agree with the first part and meant to put that in the first post. Criminals don't care about a BOS anymore than they do a 30.05 sign and sure as hell aren't going to care about signing some piece of paper. I just don't buy it. I mean maybe it does occasionally but not in any meaningful way.

Totally agree with the rest of it.

Personally I never ask for a bill of sale unless I don't like the look of the person when I meet them. That I can think of that has only been a single person and when he said he didn't want to that was the end of the deal. The guy had tattoos on his neck and showed up with a car full of black males all of whom were trying to sink as low in their car seats as possible while having a hoodie covering their heads and faces and a paper plate on the car. I was selling an AK pistol, had it been a bird hunting shotgun I probably would have just made a point of talking to his buddies and would have sold him the gun.

Hmmm... I always ask for a bill of sale on most anything. I would give one too.

I have had an 03 FFL before which required identification and ID for my log book. So I have always been used to asking for it or no sale or trade. I never once had a problem selling one of my firearms for what I asked. I have sold a firearm on this forum that was used in crime shortly after I sold it and ATF reverse traced it to me. If I had not obtained the buyer's drivers license number it would have stopped with me and it would not have helped with whatever criminal activity they were investigating. If I were scared of the govt, I would not have had an FFL. So I still ask for identification unless it is someone known to me and keep those records for all firearms in my collection and hunting arsenal in a bound book for my personal transaction record, insurance purposes, for recording values, and for my wife to know in case something happens to me. Not because it makes me feel good. I understand why some non govt trusting types would not want a reverse trace trail to them and not trade with me, and that is ok. No one is twisting their arm and the next guy will buy it.

I saw a similar situation with and ammo purchase when I was in a gun shop near downtown Dallas talking to a friend behind the counter. A guy just as you described came up the counter and asked for a box of "44 Manglum". My friend looked at the shelves and said "nope all out of that, sorry". The gangster looking guy looking disappointed left. I told my friend you know he was wanting 44 magnum and you have tons of it. He said he knew that and may have just saved someone's life by not selling it to the guy.

I don’t see any harm asking for a bill of sale, it’s a receipt like I were to get a receipt from purchasing at BPS or any FFL.

So a couple of thoughts about this mindset.

First I will address the last thing. The next guy may buy it but the next guy may not. You are cutting your buyers pool dramatically.

I am not sure you realize how much litigation, especially civil litigations, you open yourself up too. Im not sure where to even begin. How exactly do you store those drivers license numbers you collect? Are they secured behind two locks? Do you have written permission to keep those DLs? If so was that document written by you? Or who? Did you speak to those police or ATF agents without a lawyer present? Are the victims aware that you were helping by selling the criminal that gun? What do the victims attorneys think about that? And what does the ATF think about those prices you got selling those guns?

It has nothing to do with being 'scared of the government.' It has to do with protecting your personal interests, something you think you are doing but in reality are just putting yourself out there for no reason.

I really do appreciate your post because you did a better job than I ever could highlighting exactly why it is a bad idea.

And for the love of all that is good in this world if you are a buyer NEVER give your DL number to someone to keep. Do what the last guy said. If you get to a sale and don't like it than just walk away. Or let an FFL handle the transfer.

Lets use this as a case study.

1. You get a phone call from the ATF asking you about a Glock 19 they picked up in a crime. The gun was used to kill the teenage child of a well known multi-millionare by the person you sold the gun too. These parents are no strangers to litigation and are devastated. THe story is picked up by local and even national news. What is a better response for you?

A. I have no idea what happened to that gun but I do on occasion engage in private transactions. I cannot ID who I sold it too. Have a nice day. Or
B. I sold it to the man who killed the teenage child of that well known rich guy that is all over the news right now and don't worry I have documents to prove it.

2. You sell me a gun and against my better judgement I give you all of the information off of my DL. Six weeks later I find out that I have been defrauded of a whole bunch of money by someone who had my information. And you are the only person who has seen my DL in years. Had to have been you right? We are going to investigate and, since you are so trustworthy, you openly admit to my attorney that you keep those DLs in an unlocked drawer in your office. Of course you had nothing to do with it, but if you wouldn't have collected my ID we'd have never found out that your housekeeper is an illegal alien who has a brother arrested for fraud and on and on....... But if you hadnt kept my ID I would have never thought about you.

Don't collect info you dont need and don't give it to people you do not know.

Not required in Texas. Unless the law changes I’m not asking for anything. What you do illegally is on you.

My PERSONAL feeling. I wouldn’t buy a gun from someone who refused to give me a bill of sale.

I’ve never sold a gun but would have no problem with giving a bill of sale. Want to go to a Notary? OK with me.

I prefer not to over think things.

It is very simple. You want my gun. I ask for ID. Now post FFL any ID, does not have to be DL, for my personal records or bound book, you say no, you don't want my gun anymore, we go our own ways. No harm done.
Next guy wants it. I ask for ID for my personal records or bound book, you say ok, we trade, we go our own ways. No harm done.
Or next guy lives out of State, I ask for FFL to ship to. They either provide it and I ship, or they say no and don't trade. Again no harm done.
And post FFL "known to me" which could be family, friend, or even a long time forum member. I make the trade and put the known name or member's username or email in my bound book for my personal record. no harm done.

IMO, your speculation on the number of lost sales is false. If it were true for general firearm owners, most people would never ever buy a new firearm from an FFL. Or sell one to an FFL. Or sell or buy one online to anyone using an email or username. Gunbroker would go out of business. There would be no firearms trading post forum here. The average gun owner is just not worried about all the perfect storm what ifs. Unless of course your survey is only of people who will not buy a firearm from an FFL to begin with, then yep I could see 90 percent say they also would not provide a bill of sale to an individual.

I would go mad if I worried about all the what ifs in life. I am just not worried about it, but I appreciate your concern and have no problem with your way of thinking. I just don't share it.

Hmmmm.

I don’t think I’ve ever made a profit on a gun deal, didn’t even know such a thing possible. Buy high sell cheap is my motto.

""""IMO, your speculation on the number of lost sales is false."""

There is zero doubt in my mind that you are wrong.




But we can agree to disagree. I do not ever expect to change the mind of someone who thinks its their job to help the ATF.(with all due respect. I do not mean that as an insult) or that it's ok to be in possession of other people's identifications.

What I hope is other posters understand what I am arguing and the normalization of bill of sales is reversed.

Have a good night.

You are correct, if a person does not want anyone to possess your ID, you should never buy a firearm from an FFL. Even an 03 FFL requires it. The only thing the collector's license provides is the ability to trade over state lines. Otherwise it is considered the same as any unlicensed individual, yet there is a line for an ID when it is an unlicensed person. 01 FFLs of course already require the 4473, etc. Even a gunsmith will log in and out your firearm. There is no way around not asking for it if you are licensed. They all will have a record of your ID.

I think this just indicates that it would be hugely positive to open up NICS to the public.

That is the silliest argument.

Reminder I was an FFL for 16 years and today am responsible for a LOT, a WHOLE LOT, of customer IDs.

You clearly do not get what I am saying so at this point I am going to let it go assuming most people see it.



I PMd you, but this should absolutely be on the trading thread, not hidden down page. Have a good night.

Sorry, no can do even if I wanted to.

5. This area is strictly for buying, selling and trading. All unrelated posts will be moved or deleted.

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/8467055/

Ive never asked for one but have agreed to a couple when purchasing. Seller just asked for basic info, not like I was providing my DL, SSN, Address. I think it was just name and phone number. I do keep a record of any firearm Ive sold or purchased and as much info as I can glean without asking (eg Name, Phone#, Email, Forum, Forum Handle, Date, Serial #). Just dont ever want to be in a situation where I cant remember who I sold a gun to. In one case I was able to buy back a gun that I had regretted selling.

Private sales are legal. If you don’t like it you are a slack jawed [censored]. And promoting everything that goes with it.