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To AI or not to AI?
#8985716
01/11/24 02:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,421
unclebubba
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That is the question. I found an old Western Field 30-30 at the back of an inherited safe. I guess I knew it was there already, but didn't really pay much attention to it as I had very little interest in a 30-30. My son was showing interest in hunting with a lever action, so we pulled it out along with about a box and a half of 150 gr core-lokts. Went down to the range to see if it would group. I did not have high expectations, but I was surprised. First two shots were within 3/4 of an inch at 100 yards, and the 3rd shot was touching the first. We shot up all but 5 rounds (wanted to have some left to hunt with), and looks like we have a rifle that will consistently shoot about 1 moa. Looks like I am going to have to get some 30-30 dies! The issue that I see with this rifle though, we get a lot of shot opportunities in the 100-250 yard range, and I don't see this as a 250 yard gun. In doing some research, I should be able to get the FTX bullet (.330 BC) to about 2400fps with Leverevolution powder, and if I Ackley it, maybe 2500-2600fps? I am thinking that an ackley version could very well be a 250 yard gun. Should I go and mess with a rifle that is already shooting very well with admittedly blah ammo, or should I just reload for it as is and keep it a 150 yard gun?
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985730
01/11/24 02:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,534
wp75169
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I wouldn’t mess with a good thing if it were me. Have you looked into how those rifles feed once they’ve been AI?
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985739
01/11/24 02:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,667
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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Same as my thoughts.
I also ran QL on the SAAMI .30-30 and the .30-30 AI and it doesn't look like there's much to be gained, maybe 70 fps or so depending on what powder you use---which you could use up a little faster, maybe about 3 grains at a time.
I'd leave it alone simply because of the possibility of ending up with feeding issues.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: wp75169]
#8985744
01/11/24 02:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,421
unclebubba
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I wouldn’t mess with a good thing if it were me. Have you looked into how those rifles feed once they’ve been AI? I have not. I am assuming from your statement that there can be issues.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985747
01/11/24 03:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,534
wp75169
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I absolutely do not know. I do know that’s a factor with some cartridges and rifles.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985752
01/11/24 03:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,987
redchevy
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Look into some other bullets. I inherited a Winchester model 94 recently and just got dies. I’m going to shoot Barnes 110 tactx or maybe the 125 tactx some day. Think that would get you to 250, although I’d. Ever plan on shooting that far with it.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985753
01/11/24 03:13 PM
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Joined: Oct 2023
Posts: 30
rabst
Light Foot
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Personally, I wouldn't even consider it in a lever action.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985757
01/11/24 03:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 4,295
10 Gauge
Extreme Tracker
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I bet you could extend the range with lever evolution powder and 110 or 120 grain barnes tac-tx. Probably have to single load them.
Joshua 1:9
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985760
01/11/24 03:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,911
kmon11
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Agre with the others would not AI it but also agree with Redchevy you could go to a different bullet and get closer to there with it. With the higher BC bullets though it becomes a single shot or one in the mag and one in the chamber for a double.
I have seen deer killed past 200 yards with factory standard round nose 30-30 ammo but drop has to be considered.
Can it be done yes but like shooting longer ranges you need the correct dope for it when extending it out.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985779
01/11/24 03:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,904
J.G.
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Coincidentally, I spent some time the last few days prepping .30-30 brass. I treated it just like I would treat brass for one of my bolt actions. FL size, trim, chamfer and debur, and debured the flash holes. Because I don't want to use up my CCI-200 or Fed 210 primers, I primed with Winchester Large Rifle. They don't tend to produce the lowest ES, but I'm going to have to accept that, for this project.
I have Leverloution powder, and am loaded with a 150 gr Hornady round nose. I will be doing a load development, like I would for any other rifle. Looking for what charge shoots the best, and making sure it is safe ammo. My rifle us a 1994 made Marlin 336. I will let you know what I learn. Leverloution is supposed to generate significantly more velocity than any other powder that is appropriate for .30-30
If we can put a Mil based scope on a .22 lr and make hits at 300 yards, and more, then the .30-30 can absolutely do it as well. The unknown is the energy delivery. That is unknown, because I haven't shot it yet and learned what MV it's going to have. My bullet won't have a very good BC, but it will give you an idea of the velocity potential with a 150 gr.
My rifle is currently wearing irons, the way God intended. If I still possess a scope base, I will put a scope on it for load development, and then take it back off once I'm done.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985789
01/11/24 03:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,421
unclebubba
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I do want to keep the functionality of the magazine, so, I am limiting myself to flat nosed bullets or the flex tip bullets. Hornady also has a 135 gr FTX with a BC of .274 and a 140 gr monoflex with a BC of .295. Maybe I will play with some of those instead?
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: J.G.]
#8985790
01/11/24 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,764
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
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My rifle is currently wearing irons, the way God intended. If I still possess a scope base, I will put a scope on it for load development, and then take it back off once I'm done. I'm surprised you still don't ride a horse to work I agree with everyone else...don't AI it. Shoot it and enjoy it.
Last edited by Judd; 01/11/24 05:45 PM. Reason: fixed quote...
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: Judd]
#8985800
01/11/24 04:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,904
J.G.
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I would have to get up earlier than I already do to ride a horse to work.
Unclebubba,
I purchased some once fired .30-30 brass of several brands. WW Super, Winchester, Federal, Remington, Hornady.
Out of 200 brass, I had six pieces that had cracks. Most of them were cracked at the neck/shoulder junction.
So, it looks like .30-30 brass needs to be annealed early in its' life.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: J.G.]
#8985801
01/11/24 04:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,421
unclebubba
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Coincidentally, I spent some time the last few days prepping .30-30 brass. I treated it just like I would treat brass for one of my bolt actions. FL size, trim, chamfer and debur, and debured the flash holes. Because I don't want to use up my CCI-200 or Fed 210 primers, I primed with Winchester Large Rifle. They don't tend to produce the lowest ES, but I'm going to have to accept that, for this project.
I have Leverloution powder, and am loaded with a 150 gr Hornady round nose. I will be doing a load development, like I would for any other rifle. Looking for what charge shoots the best, and making sure it is safe ammo. My rifle us a 1994 made Marlin 336. I will let you know what I learn. Leverloution is supposed to generate significantly more velocity than any other powder that is appropriate for .30-30
If we can put a Mil based scope on a .22 lr and make hits at 300 yards, and more, then the .30-30 can absolutely do it as well. The unknown is the energy delivery. That is unknown, because I haven't shot it yet and learned what MV it's going to have. My bullet won't have a very good BC, but it will give you an idea of the velocity potential with a 150 gr.
My rifle is currently wearing irons, the way God intended. If I still possess a scope base, I will put a scope on it for load development, and then take it back off once I'm done. I am looking forward to learning from your experience. Thanks! My Marlin 1895 still wears irons as God intended...but, unfortunately, God did not intend me to keep 20/20 eyesight into my 50's. The 30/30 had an old Japanese made Tasco on it, and it seems to be pretty good, so it will stay. If I have to put a scope on a lever gun, I don't want it to have open turrets or MIL hash marks. I'd rather it have a period correct, small, duplex reticle scope. If you don't have a scope base, I will gladly loan you one.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: J.G.]
#8985805
01/11/24 04:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,421
unclebubba
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I would have to get up earlier than I already do to ride a horse to work.
Unclebubba,
I purchased some once fired .30-30 brass of several brands. WW Super, Winchester, Federal, Remington, Hornady.
Out of 200 brass, I had six pieces that had cracks. Most of them were cracked at the neck/shoulder junction.
So, it looks like .30-30 brass needs to be annealed early in its' life. I picked up 100 rounds of Corelokt from a friend last night, so we will be shooting that up to get my brass. I tend to anneal after every firing anyhow, so I should be OK there. I won't be doing load work up until we have gone through all the factory rounds, so that won't be until this summer probably. I'm just doing research now.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: J.G.]
#8985810
01/11/24 04:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,667
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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My rifle us a 1994 made Marlin 336.
So you have a 94 336. Not many of those around.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985835
01/11/24 05:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 16,057
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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IMO, right tool, right job. If you need to shoot 250 (or possibly even further), then take a rifle that will reliably do that, and with enough power to cleanly kill at that distance. You have a nice gun, I'd leave it alone and use it within the scope of its capabilities.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks]
#8985839
01/11/24 05:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,421
unclebubba
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... use it within the scope of its capabilities. That is exactly what I was planning on doing. I was just wanting to extend those capabilities. I was also looking forward to playing with an Ackley improved round. From the above comments, I am probably going to just work up a good load for this one and keep it as a shorter range gun.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985840
01/11/24 05:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 13,724
ntxtrapper
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It’s a lever action 30-30. I’d just leave it alone and enjoy it for what it is.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985852
01/11/24 06:10 PM
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Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 404
Big Sam
Bird Dog
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I've never heard a bad word about the 30-30 with the FTX bullet. Go buy a box and take it out to 200-250 yards and see what it does. If the Western Field fits him well and he instinctively shoots it well, then you are almost home. The FTX may get you the rest of the way there. Dunno but having a rifle you shoot well is a very big thing. AI really makes a nice improvement performance wise. But you have to decide if the gain is worth all the hassle and extra cost.
My son has a Marlin 30-30 I bought in 1976 and he has no desire to change it or the memories it represents.
As an aside, Back in 1973 I bought a Western Field (made my Mossberg then) from Montgomery Ward. I remember picking it up at the catalog counter. Long time ago.
"Group think" is not thinking. It is the lack of independent thought. It is a cancer of the mind.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: Big Sam]
#8985858
01/11/24 06:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,421
unclebubba
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I've never heard a bad word about the 30-30 with the FTX bullet. Go buy a box and take it out to 200-250 yards and see what it does. If the Western Field fits him well and he instinctively shoots it well, then you are almost home. The FTX may get you the rest of the way there. Dunno but having a rifle you shoot well is a very big thing. AI really makes a nice improvement performance wise. But you have to decide if the gain is worth all the hassle and extra cost.
My son has a Marlin 30-30 I bought in 1976 and he has no desire to change it or the memories it represents.
As an aside, Back in 1973 I bought a Western Field (made my Mossberg then) from Montgomery Ward. I remember picking it up at the catalog counter. Long time ago. Gonna shoot through the ammo that we have. (shouldn't take too long) and then go buy some FTX bullets and work up a load.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985860
01/11/24 06:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 16,057
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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... use it within the scope of its capabilities. That is exactly what I was planning on doing. I was just wanting to extend those capabilities. I was also looking forward to playing with an Ackley improved round. From the above comments, I am probably going to just work up a good load for this one and keep it as a shorter range gun. Looking at this, I think you can get to 250 with OTC ammo with enough power to do the job. Hornady .30-30 160gr Ballistics
Last edited by QuitShootinYoungBucks; 01/11/24 06:33 PM. Reason: add link
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: unclebubba]
#8985925
01/11/24 08:27 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,534
wp75169
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Note: most FTX bullets have a different trim length than normal. It’s shorter.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: wp75169]
#8985981
01/11/24 10:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,421
unclebubba
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Note: most FTX bullets have a different trim length than normal. It’s shorter. Interestingly, there is no mention of that for 30-30 on the Hodgdon reloading data website. There is also no mention of it for 45/70, but I know for a fact that the case must be trimmed back a little more for 45/70.
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Re: To AI or not to AI?
[Re: wp75169]
#8985985
01/11/24 10:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,667
RiverRider
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Note: most FTX bullets have a different trim length than normal. It’s shorter. Do you mean you have to trim the case a little shorter to keep the ogive out of the case mouth? I think that must be what you mean, just want to be sure.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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