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To AI or not to AI? #8985716 01/11/24 02:37 PM
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That is the question. I found an old Western Field 30-30 at the back of an inherited safe. I guess I knew it was there already, but didn't really pay much attention to it as I had very little interest in a 30-30. My son was showing interest in hunting with a lever action, so we pulled it out along with about a box and a half of 150 gr core-lokts. Went down to the range to see if it would group. I did not have high expectations, but I was surprised. First two shots were within 3/4 of an inch at 100 yards, and the 3rd shot was touching the first. We shot up all but 5 rounds (wanted to have some left to hunt with), and looks like we have a rifle that will consistently shoot about 1 moa. Looks like I am going to have to get some 30-30 dies! The issue that I see with this rifle though, we get a lot of shot opportunities in the 100-250 yard range, and I don't see this as a 250 yard gun. In doing some research, I should be able to get the FTX bullet (.330 BC) to about 2400fps with Leverevolution powder, and if I Ackley it, maybe 2500-2600fps? I am thinking that an ackley version could very well be a 250 yard gun. Should I go and mess with a rifle that is already shooting very well with admittedly blah ammo, or should I just reload for it as is and keep it a 150 yard gun?


http://www.boatloan.com/michael-hunt/

Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985730 01/11/24 02:46 PM
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I wouldn’t mess with a good thing if it were me. Have you looked into how those rifles feed once they’ve been AI?

Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985739 01/11/24 02:54 PM
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Same as my thoughts.

I also ran QL on the SAAMI .30-30 and the .30-30 AI and it doesn't look like there's much to be gained, maybe 70 fps or so depending on what powder you use---which you could use up a little faster, maybe about 3 grains at a time.

I'd leave it alone simply because of the possibility of ending up with feeding issues.


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: wp75169] #8985744 01/11/24 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
I wouldn’t mess with a good thing if it were me. Have you looked into how those rifles feed once they’ve been AI?

I have not. I am assuming from your statement that there can be issues.


http://www.boatloan.com/michael-hunt/

Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985747 01/11/24 03:02 PM
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I absolutely do not know. I do know that’s a factor with some cartridges and rifles.

Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985752 01/11/24 03:10 PM
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Look into some other bullets. I inherited a Winchester model 94 recently and just got dies. I’m going to shoot Barnes 110 tactx or maybe the 125 tactx some day. Think that would get you to 250, although I’d. Ever plan on shooting that far with it.


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985753 01/11/24 03:13 PM
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Personally, I wouldn't even consider it in a lever action.

Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985757 01/11/24 03:18 PM
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I bet you could extend the range with lever evolution powder and 110 or 120 grain barnes tac-tx. Probably have to single load them.


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985760 01/11/24 03:21 PM
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Agre with the others would not AI it but also agree with Redchevy you could go to a different bullet and get closer to there with it. With the higher BC bullets though it becomes a single shot or one in the mag and one in the chamber for a double.

I have seen deer killed past 200 yards with factory standard round nose 30-30 ammo but drop has to be considered.



Can it be done yes but like shooting longer ranges you need the correct dope for it when extending it out.


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985779 01/11/24 03:37 PM
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Coincidentally, I spent some time the last few days prepping .30-30 brass. I treated it just like I would treat brass for one of my bolt actions. FL size, trim, chamfer and debur, and debured the flash holes. Because I don't want to use up my CCI-200 or Fed 210 primers, I primed with Winchester Large Rifle. They don't tend to produce the lowest ES, but I'm going to have to accept that, for this project.

I have Leverloution powder, and am loaded with a 150 gr Hornady round nose. I will be doing a load development, like I would for any other rifle. Looking for what charge shoots the best, and making sure it is safe ammo. My rifle us a 1994 made Marlin 336. I will let you know what I learn. Leverloution is supposed to generate significantly more velocity than any other powder that is appropriate for .30-30

If we can put a Mil based scope on a .22 lr and make hits at 300 yards, and more, then the .30-30 can absolutely do it as well. The unknown is the energy delivery. That is unknown, because I haven't shot it yet and learned what MV it's going to have. My bullet won't have a very good BC, but it will give you an idea of the velocity potential with a 150 gr.

My rifle is currently wearing irons, the way God intended. If I still possess a scope base, I will put a scope on it for load development, and then take it back off once I'm done.


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985789 01/11/24 03:51 PM
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I do want to keep the functionality of the magazine, so, I am limiting myself to flat nosed bullets or the flex tip bullets. Hornady also has a 135 gr FTX with a BC of .274 and a 140 gr monoflex with a BC of .295. Maybe I will play with some of those instead?


http://www.boatloan.com/michael-hunt/

Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: J.G.] #8985790 01/11/24 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by J.G.
My rifle is currently wearing irons, the way God intended. If I still possess a scope base, I will put a scope on it for load development, and then take it back off once I'm done.


I'm surprised you still don't ride a horse to work roflmao

I agree with everyone else...don't AI it. Shoot it and enjoy it.

Last edited by Judd; 01/11/24 05:45 PM. Reason: fixed quote...

Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: Judd] #8985800 01/11/24 04:10 PM
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I would have to get up earlier than I already do to ride a horse to work.

Unclebubba,

I purchased some once fired .30-30 brass of several brands. WW Super, Winchester, Federal, Remington, Hornady.

Out of 200 brass, I had six pieces that had cracks. Most of them were cracked at the neck/shoulder junction.

So, it looks like .30-30 brass needs to be annealed early in its' life.


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: J.G.] #8985801 01/11/24 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by J.G.
Coincidentally, I spent some time the last few days prepping .30-30 brass. I treated it just like I would treat brass for one of my bolt actions. FL size, trim, chamfer and debur, and debured the flash holes. Because I don't want to use up my CCI-200 or Fed 210 primers, I primed with Winchester Large Rifle. They don't tend to produce the lowest ES, but I'm going to have to accept that, for this project.

I have Leverloution powder, and am loaded with a 150 gr Hornady round nose. I will be doing a load development, like I would for any other rifle. Looking for what charge shoots the best, and making sure it is safe ammo. My rifle us a 1994 made Marlin 336. I will let you know what I learn. Leverloution is supposed to generate significantly more velocity than any other powder that is appropriate for .30-30

If we can put a Mil based scope on a .22 lr and make hits at 300 yards, and more, then the .30-30 can absolutely do it as well. The unknown is the energy delivery. That is unknown, because I haven't shot it yet and learned what MV it's going to have. My bullet won't have a very good BC, but it will give you an idea of the velocity potential with a 150 gr.

My rifle is currently wearing irons, the way God intended. If I still possess a scope base, I will put a scope on it for load development, and then take it back off once I'm done.

I am looking forward to learning from your experience. Thanks! My Marlin 1895 still wears irons as God intended...but, unfortunately, God did not intend me to keep 20/20 eyesight into my 50's. The 30/30 had an old Japanese made Tasco on it, and it seems to be pretty good, so it will stay. If I have to put a scope on a lever gun, I don't want it to have open turrets or MIL hash marks. I'd rather it have a period correct, small, duplex reticle scope. If you don't have a scope base, I will gladly loan you one.


http://www.boatloan.com/michael-hunt/

Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: J.G.] #8985805 01/11/24 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by J.G.
I would have to get up earlier than I already do to ride a horse to work.

Unclebubba,

I purchased some once fired .30-30 brass of several brands. WW Super, Winchester, Federal, Remington, Hornady.

Out of 200 brass, I had six pieces that had cracks. Most of them were cracked at the neck/shoulder junction.

So, it looks like .30-30 brass needs to be annealed early in its' life.

I picked up 100 rounds of Corelokt from a friend last night, so we will be shooting that up to get my brass. I tend to anneal after every firing anyhow, so I should be OK there. I won't be doing load work up until we have gone through all the factory rounds, so that won't be until this summer probably. I'm just doing research now.


http://www.boatloan.com/michael-hunt/

Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: J.G.] #8985810 01/11/24 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by J.G.

My rifle us a 1994 made Marlin 336.



So you have a 94 336. Not many of those around.
grin


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985835 01/11/24 05:20 PM
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IMO, right tool, right job. If you need to shoot 250 (or possibly even further), then take a rifle that will reliably do that, and with enough power to cleanly kill at that distance. You have a nice gun, I'd leave it alone and use it within the scope of its capabilities.


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #8985839 01/11/24 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by QuitShootinYoungBucks
... use it within the scope of its capabilities.


That is exactly what I was planning on doing. I was just wanting to extend those capabilities. I was also looking forward to playing with an Ackley improved round. From the above comments, I am probably going to just work up a good load for this one and keep it as a shorter range gun.


http://www.boatloan.com/michael-hunt/

Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985840 01/11/24 05:47 PM
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It’s a lever action 30-30. I’d just leave it alone and enjoy it for what it is.

Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985852 01/11/24 06:10 PM
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I've never heard a bad word about the 30-30 with the FTX bullet. Go buy a box and take it out to 200-250 yards and see what it does. If the Western Field fits him well and he instinctively shoots it well, then you are almost home. The FTX may get you the rest of the way there. Dunno but having a rifle you shoot well is a very big thing. AI really makes a nice improvement performance wise. But you have to decide if the gain is worth all the hassle and extra cost.

My son has a Marlin 30-30 I bought in 1976 and he has no desire to change it or the memories it represents.

As an aside, Back in 1973 I bought a Western Field (made my Mossberg then) from Montgomery Ward. I remember picking it up at the catalog counter. Long time ago.


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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: Big Sam] #8985858 01/11/24 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Sam
I've never heard a bad word about the 30-30 with the FTX bullet. Go buy a box and take it out to 200-250 yards and see what it does. If the Western Field fits him well and he instinctively shoots it well, then you are almost home. The FTX may get you the rest of the way there. Dunno but having a rifle you shoot well is a very big thing. AI really makes a nice improvement performance wise. But you have to decide if the gain is worth all the hassle and extra cost.

My son has a Marlin 30-30 I bought in 1976 and he has no desire to change it or the memories it represents.

As an aside, Back in 1973 I bought a Western Field (made my Mossberg then) from Montgomery Ward. I remember picking it up at the catalog counter. Long time ago.

Gonna shoot through the ammo that we have. (shouldn't take too long) and then go buy some FTX bullets and work up a load.


http://www.boatloan.com/michael-hunt/

Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985860 01/11/24 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by unclebubba
Originally Posted by QuitShootinYoungBucks
... use it within the scope of its capabilities.


That is exactly what I was planning on doing. I was just wanting to extend those capabilities. I was also looking forward to playing with an Ackley improved round. From the above comments, I am probably going to just work up a good load for this one and keep it as a shorter range gun.


Looking at this, I think you can get to 250 with OTC ammo with enough power to do the job.

Hornady .30-30 160gr Ballistics

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Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: unclebubba] #8985925 01/11/24 08:27 PM
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Note: most FTX bullets have a different trim length than normal. It’s shorter.

Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: wp75169] #8985981 01/11/24 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
Note: most FTX bullets have a different trim length than normal. It’s shorter.

Interestingly, there is no mention of that for 30-30 on the Hodgdon reloading data website. There is also no mention of it for 45/70, but I know for a fact that the case must be trimmed back a little more for 45/70.


http://www.boatloan.com/michael-hunt/

Originally Posted by Nolanco
current federal policy is clearly irrational, scientifically insupportable and ridiculous.
Re: To AI or not to AI? [Re: wp75169] #8985985 01/11/24 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
Note: most FTX bullets have a different trim length than normal. It’s shorter.



Do you mean you have to trim the case a little shorter to keep the ogive out of the case mouth? I think that must be what you mean, just want to be sure.


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