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Re: Is it public land [Re: tigger] #8743458 11/27/22 02:52 PM
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Texas law states you own the land and the airspace. You can’t fly a helicopter across someone’s property below X number of feet.

And corner crossers tearing up fences would certainly be an issue to get upset about.

I like the ladder idea. Lots of ranches here do them for illegals so they don’t tear up the fence.


This is gonna play out in court, as previously mentioned it’s unprecedented because technology has just now made this a viable argument to be able to make a case for public lands and landlocked parcels.


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Re: Is it public land [Re: txtrophy85] #8743465 11/27/22 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Texas law states you own the land and the airspace. You can’t fly a helicopter across someone’s property below X number of feet.

And corner crossers tearing up fences would certainly be an issue to get upset about.

I like the ladder idea. Lots of ranches here do them for illegals so they don’t tear up the fence.


This is gonna play out in court, as previously mentioned it’s unprecedented because technology has just now made this a viable argument to be able to make a case for public lands and landlocked parcels.


This fight is decades old, in multiple states. Biggest challenge has come as states forgo posted laws and amended them to like TX where unless you had written expressed permission it’s a no go and criminal trespass, things really started heating up.


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Re: Is it public land [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8743573 11/27/22 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by BigPig
I have no dog in this fight as I’m not a land owner nor am I a western states hunter. But, I’ve been following this particular corner crossing case since it’s inception and quite frankly I feel it’s bs. If you’re a land owner you can’t be denied access to your property, now you may have to pay for access via a legal easement, but you can’t be denied.

What really irritates me about this particular case is the only reason this is an issue is because the landowner was using that public land as if it were private land and making money off it. It’s simple case of an over bearing land owner who’s mad that hunters are exercising their rights to use land that belongs to the public.

If states are going to continue to have land locked public land with no access, then it should be sold or leased to the bordering landowners.

Don’t misunderstand me though, I’m not saying landowners need to open the front gate to their land and allow every person equal access, I’m only talking about corner crossing from public to public land.



What would you do if someone sent a bullet across your property? Or broke your fences down from climbing over them. You either own the space above the land or you don’t

In this case the civil suit is BS, but instead if I was him I would sue the BLM and NF to pay to have ladders going over all corners and limited liability clause added.

The landowner did have all the grazing leased so he wasn’t exactly a dead beat 100%


Sending a bullet across property lines is one thing, crossing a corner is another. I agree that if you’re climbing on the fence, then that’s an issue but these guys in reference used a ladder their second year. A ladder that only touches public lands.

Yeah they leased the grazing rights, but does anybody know how many cattle they actually graze over their or is that just their work around to be on that side to guide hunters and harass other hunters?


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Re: Is it public land [Re: txtrophy85] #8743590 11/27/22 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by txtrophy85
Texas law states you own the land and the airspace. You can’t fly a helicopter across someone’s property below X number of feet.

And corner crossers tearing up fences would certainly be an issue to get upset about.

I like the ladder idea. Lots of ranches here do them for illegals so they don’t tear up the fence.


This is gonna play out in court, as previously mentioned it’s unprecedented because technology has just now made this a viable argument to be able to make a case for public lands and landlocked parcels.


For the flying in deal-
You can legally get in there via helicopter or bush type plane. 1200' AGL is what would keep you out of trouble. Then, there is always exceptions to any govt regulation, and I cant recall the exact wording in the Far/Aim on this, its been too long, but something to the effect of no closer than "X" feet except with intention of landing. In Decatur, I usually cross the soccer field on final at less than 300 AGL, perfectly legal.

On the ladders, suppose the landowners have a 12' high fence, it would deter a lot of them from crossing. If all this really comes to a court case, I see the landowners getting paid a high premium for some easements.

Re: Is it public land [Re: BigPig] #8743683 11/27/22 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BigPig
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by BigPig
I have no dog in this fight as I’m not a land owner nor am I a western states hunter. But, I’ve been following this particular corner crossing case since it’s inception and quite frankly I feel it’s bs. If you’re a land owner you can’t be denied access to your property, now you may have to pay for access via a legal easement, but you can’t be denied.

What really irritates me about this particular case is the only reason this is an issue is because the landowner was using that public land as if it were private land and making money off it. It’s simple case of an over bearing land owner who’s mad that hunters are exercising their rights to use land that belongs to the public.

If states are going to continue to have land locked public land with no access, then it should be sold or leased to the bordering landowners.

Don’t misunderstand me though, I’m not saying landowners need to open the front gate to their land and allow every person equal access, I’m only talking about corner crossing from public to public land.



What would you do if someone sent a bullet across your property? Or broke your fences down from climbing over them. You either own the space above the land or you don’t

In this case the civil suit is BS, but instead if I was him I would sue the BLM and NF to pay to have ladders going over all corners and limited liability clause added.

The landowner did have all the grazing leased so he wasn’t exactly a dead beat 100%


Sending a bullet across property lines is one thing, crossing a corner is another. I agree that if you’re climbing on the fence, then that’s an issue but these guys in reference used a ladder their second year. A ladder that only touches public lands.

Yeah they leased the grazing rights, but does anybody know how many cattle they actually graze over their or is that just their work around to be on that side to guide hunters and harass other hunters?


BLM and NF watch stocking rates pretty heavily, regardless what they run or not run they are paying more in to the public use fund than those hunters. Not saying it gives exclusivity but we need leasees.

So it’s ok to cross fences or property boundaries as long as it’s not a bullet, drone, arrow etc to get to public land? What if it’s not a corner but 20 yards or 100 yards or mile…. It a pretty wide open precedent.

Wilks brothers bought a couple thousand acres in Idaho. It was a paper company’s timber management land. The timber company maintained all the road at a cost of several thousands of dollars a year. Wilks bought the land and shut down ALL the roads. They have been sued several times along with having gates and fences cut for restricting access to and across their land. Funny think is it doesn’t shut off land it shuts off the easy way in… Corner crossing issue will continue to grow in to more things.

I think more states should use farm program to provide more access.



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Re: Is it public land [Re: tigger] #8743734 11/27/22 09:30 PM
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“ So it’s ok to cross fences or property boundaries as long as it’s not a bullet, drone, arrow etc to get to public land? What if it’s not a corner but 20 yards or 100 yards or mile…. It a pretty wide open precedent”

No, like I said above, landowners don’t need to open a gate or provide the access in any way, and the hunters shouldn’t be climbing on the fence. But using a ladder hurts nobody other than the landowner who’s leasing the land now gets butt hurt because someone who can legally be there is there and didn’t pay him a guide fee.

This would be similar to a person sitting on a sidewalk in front of your house. Is he trespassing? No. Sidewalks are easements for public use. The use of said ladder to corner cross and never physically touch someone’s property, aka climbing the fence, is really no different than anybody using a sidewalk in your front yard. What if the person on the sidewalk extends their arms out to their sides and their hand is now in your air space. You going to call the cops and have them criminally trespassed?


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Re: Is it public land [Re: tigger] #8743764 11/27/22 10:13 PM
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Most of you are thinking of what you regularly experience in Texas. Many western states have open range and only fence areas they want to keep cattle or sheep out of. The corner crossings that I’ve experienced had no fences. There was a Trig Point marking the corner and you could step from one publicly owned property to another without ever encroaching on private property.

I believe the ladder discussed in the article was to climb over signs that didn't allow hunters to step over the corner marker. I’ve seen similar signs on both sides of county roads. They set them up in a fashion to make you believe that you can’t drive down the county road.

These public lands are often controlled by greedy land owners who own thousands of acres and don't want hunters, who aren’t clients, to harvest an Elk from these lands.

I personally know of one incident where a hunter legally shot a 5X5 Bull on Public Land and it dropped across the property line of one such landowner. The hunter drove to the landowners house and asked to retrieve the Elk. The landowner said he could only if he paid a $2 thousand dollar trespass fee. The hunter called the game warden who confirmed that as long as the elk was not moved by the landowner there was nothing he could do.



Last edited by JimBridger; 11/27/22 10:16 PM.

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Re: Is it public land [Re: JimBridger] #8744282 11/28/22 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JimBridger
Most of you are thinking of what you regularly experience in Texas. Many western states have open range and only fence areas they want to keep cattle or sheep out of. The corner crossings that I’ve experienced had no fences. There was a Trig Point marking the corner and you could step from one publicly owned property to another without ever encroaching on private property.

I believe the ladder discussed in the article was to climb over signs that didn't allow hunters to step over the corner marker. I’ve seen similar signs on both sides of county roads. They set them up in a fashion to make you believe that you can’t drive down the county road.

These public lands are often controlled by greedy land owners who own thousands of acres and don't want hunters, who aren’t clients, to harvest an Elk from these lands.

I personally know of one incident where a hunter legally shot a 5X5 Bull on Public Land and it dropped across the property line of one such landowner. The hunter drove to the landowners house and asked to retrieve the Elk. The landowner said he could only if he paid a $2 thousand dollar trespass fee. The hunter called the game warden who confirmed that as long as the elk was not moved by the landowner there was nothing he could do.





I hunt all over the west. I understand completely what’s going on. First, If you are even remotely relying on access to another persons property to retrieve an animal, You are hunting too close to property line, period. Goes for TX or Co, WY, NM etc. Would you hunt next to a fence line that’s felony trespass if you step a millimeter over? Of course not but there are government controlled lands that are that way. Majority of the states in US have same recovery laws. It’s up to the LO to give permission, it’s not required.

Regardless if there is a fence or not trespassing is trespassing. Stepping over a corner is trespassing as defined by the law. Wether it’s an inch or 1000 yards. The definition is the same. What you view as minimal encroachment could fully extend into something further reaching.

There is a ton of landlocked Federal public land, setting precedent to degrading private property rights isnt the answer to the fix IMO.

Many states it’s also illegal to post public land as private and there is legal recourse against it.




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Re: Is it public land [Re: BigPig] #8744289 11/28/22 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BigPig
“ So it’s ok to cross fences or property boundaries as long as it’s not a bullet, drone, arrow etc to get to public land? What if it’s not a corner but 20 yards or 100 yards or mile…. It a pretty wide open precedent”

No, like I said above, landowners don’t need to open a gate or provide the access in any way, and the hunters shouldn’t be climbing on the fence. But using a ladder hurts nobody other than the landowner who’s leasing the land now gets butt hurt because someone who can legally be there is there and didn’t pay him a guide fee.

This would be similar to a person sitting on a sidewalk in front of your house. Is he trespassing? No. Sidewalks are easements for public use. The use of said ladder to corner cross and never physically touch someone’s property, aka climbing the fence, is really no different than anybody using a sidewalk in your front yard. What if the person on the sidewalk extends their arms out to their sides and their hand is now in your air space. You going to call the cops and have them criminally trespassed?



The easement of the side walk was put into place when the land was sold. Most mineral rights extend to the middle of the street also but the street is an easement. If there is going to be an easement then every landowner that’s going to have an easement forced on them will need to be compensated.

I understand the frustration the federal government cause when they deeded out western states, but those easement should have been put into place before the Federal Government deeded the land out. Also if they are going to force access easement then need to do it to all Federal land, Reservations, Military installations, Federal Buildings etc.


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Re: Is it public land [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8744318 11/28/22 04:09 PM
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[/b]
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by JimBridger
Most of you are thinking of what you regularly experience in Texas. Many western states have open range and only fence areas they want to keep cattle or sheep out of. The corner crossings that I’ve experienced had no fences. There was a Trig Point marking the corner and you could step from one publicly owned property to another without ever encroaching on private property.

I believe the ladder discussed in the article was to climb over signs that didn't allow hunters to step over the corner marker. I’ve seen similar signs on both sides of county roads. They set them up in a fashion to make you believe that you can’t drive down the county road.

These public lands are often controlled by greedy land owners who own thousands of acres and don't want hunters, who aren’t clients, to harvest an Elk from these lands.

I personally know of one incident where a hunter legally shot a 5X5 Bull on Public Land and it dropped across the property line of one such landowner. The hunter drove to the landowners house and asked to retrieve the Elk. The landowner said he could only if he paid a $2 thousand dollar trespass fee. The hunter called the game warden who confirmed that as long as the elk was not moved by the landowner there was nothing he could do.





I hunt all over the west. I understand completely what’s going on. First, If you are even remotely relying on access to another persons property to retrieve an animal, You are hunting too close to property line, period.

[b]That is an arbitrary opinion at best. How close is too close? I’ve double lung shot two bucks during archery season in my lifetime that traveled over 400 yds before expiring. You are injecting your personal opinion as being the law.

Goes for TX or Co, WY, NM etc. Would you hunt next to a fence line that’s felony trespass if you step a millimeter over? Of course not but there are government controlled lands that are that way. Majority of the states in US have same recovery laws. It’s up to the LO to give permission, it’s not required.

There us no such law concerning corner crossing anywhere in the states you mentioned. It’s a legal gray area at best.


Regardless if there is a fence or not trespassing is trespassing. Stepping over a corner is trespassing as defined by the law. Wether it’s an inch or 1000 yards. The definition is the same. What you view as minimal encroachment could fully extend into something further reaching.

There is a ton of landlocked Federal public land, setting precedent to degrading private property rights isnt the answer to the fix IMO.

Many states it’s also illegal to post public land as private and there is legal recourse against it.

[b]The posting of property along public roadways that i described is a deceptive practice yet technically legal.
The landowner owns both sides of the roadway and his signs are on his property. There is no gate but there is fencing on both sides of the roadway and a cattle grate across the roadway.[/b]




Last edited by JimBridger; 11/28/22 04:28 PM.

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Re: Is it public land [Re: JimBridger] #8744375 11/28/22 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JimBridger
[/b]
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by JimBridger
Most of you are thinking of what you regularly experience in Texas. Many western states have open range and only fence areas they want to keep cattle or sheep out of. The corner crossings that I’ve experienced had no fences. There was a Trig Point marking the corner and you could step from one publicly owned property to another without ever encroaching on private property.

I believe the ladder discussed in the article was to climb over signs that didn't allow hunters to step over the corner marker. I’ve seen similar signs on both sides of county roads. They set them up in a fashion to make you believe that you can’t drive down the county road.

These public lands are often controlled by greedy land owners who own thousands of acres and don't want hunters, who aren’t clients, to harvest an Elk from these lands.

I personally know of one incident where a hunter legally shot a 5X5 Bull on Public Land and it dropped across the property line of one such landowner. The hunter drove to the landowners house and asked to retrieve the Elk. The landowner said he could only if he paid a $2 thousand dollar trespass fee. The hunter called the game warden who confirmed that as long as the elk was not moved by the landowner there was nothing he could do.





I hunt all over the west. I understand completely what’s going on. First, If you are even remotely relying on access to another persons property to retrieve an animal, You are hunting too close to property line, period.

[b]That is an arbitrary opinion at best. How close is too close? I’ve double lung shot two bucks during archery season in my lifetime that traveled over 400 yds before expiring. You are injecting your personal opinion as being the law.

Goes for TX or Co, WY, NM etc. Would you hunt next to a fence line that’s felony trespass if you step a millimeter over? Of course not but there are government controlled lands that are that way. Majority of the states in US have same recovery laws. It’s up to the LO to give permission, it’s not required.

There us no such law concerning corner crossing anywhere in the states you mentioned. It’s a legal gray area at best.


Regardless if there is a fence or not trespassing is trespassing. Stepping over a corner is trespassing as defined by the law. Wether it’s an inch or 1000 yards. The definition is the same. What you view as minimal encroachment could fully extend into something further reaching.

There is a ton of landlocked Federal public land, setting precedent to degrading private property rights isnt the answer to the fix IMO.

Many states it’s also illegal to post public land as private and there is legal recourse against it.

[b]The posting of property along public roadways that i described is a deceptive practice yet technically legal.
The landowner owns both sides of the roadway and his signs are on his property. There is no gate but there is fencing on both sides of the roadway and a cattle grate across the roadway.[/b]






In your case 400 yards is too close if you are bow hunting. I trailed my bull this year 1.25 miles per onX, I was 5 miles from closest boundary. Bad stuff happens but archery hunting you need to plan for the worst, and if you decide to hunt fence lines don’t blame the LO for your mistakes. Period. Rifle hunting you are pushing it to a degree at 400 yards if you don’t have the skill for a high shoulder shot, now it is a much lessor degree than archery. You can not blame someone else for your mistake or your decision to hunt close to someone else’s property.

This whole thing went to court because a ticket was written. It’s been an on going debate for years in several states. Trespassing is EXPLICITLY outlawed in EVERY state. You are arguing about the degree of trespassing. To corner cross you have to trespass, no way around it. The argument is if that trespassing should be specifically excluded and if damage occurs.

Your last comment, I don’t understand , he simply posted his property? It’s YOUR responsibility to know where you are. There is posted open range roads even in TX. A locked gate on a county maintained public road would be deceptive.

Solution isn’t widespread blanket legalizations that degrades property rights, the solutions is more programs like Montana’s Block management, Idaho’s “access Yes”, Okla OLAP, NM unit tags, RMEF access purchases etc.


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Re: Is it public land [Re: tigger] #8744387 11/28/22 05:39 PM
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By your definition, anyone who doesn't own thousands of acres can not ethically hunt their own property. That is an extremely cavalier attitude. Remember, game in free range is owned by the state not the landowner.
Again your stretching what is clearly your opinion into what is the actual law. Corner Crossings have not been defined as trespassing. People get arrested all the time for questionable offenses. Many are not contested but those that are, more often then not, result in acquittal.
I agree with you about the road issue. Like i said it is done to give the appearance to someone, mostly out of state hunters, that they can not drive down the roadway that leads to properties open to the public for hunting.

Last edited by JimBridger; 11/28/22 05:46 PM.

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Re: Is it public land [Re: JimBridger] #8744402 11/28/22 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JimBridger
By your definition, anyone who doesn't own thousands of acres can not ethically hunt their own property. That is an extremely cavalier attitude. Remember, game in free range is owned by the state not tge landowner.
Again your stretching what is clearly your opinion into what is the actual law. Corner Crossings have not been defined as trespassing. People get arrested all the time for questionable offenses. Many are not contested but those that are often result in acquittal.
I agree with you about the road issue. Like i said it is done to give the appearance to someone, mostly out of state hunters, that they can not drive down the roadway that leads to properties open to the public for hunting.


No that’s not what I said, I said don’t hold contempt towards someone else because of YOUR actions. There is a difference in a honest mistake and an expectation. You are making the argument that the expectation is, you should be able to trespass to recover an animal or access public land. Your argument is why we have strong trespassing laws in the west. When you force someone hand because of your entitlement, repercussions hurt all of us.

Look, the actual law is Air is Trespass, thus why a ticket and why it went to court. That WY court decided that no damage nor intent occurred and dropped the charges. It did not set precedent or define it like you suggest.

If you think there is no trespassing laws for space knock your self out. It’s you wallet that’s going to fight it in court.

It’s not a cavalier attitude, it’s one that respects people’s property, homes, cars, land etc. it’s also an attitude that understands there are better ways of access then degrading private property rights and laws.

You are making an entitlement argument that could carry over to even stronger laws. Instead of trying to force hands we need to expand access programs that are mutually beneficial.

There is ZERO wrong or deceptive with posting private property.


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Re: Is it public land [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8744443 11/28/22 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by JimBridger
Most of you are thinking of what you regularly experience in Texas. Many western states have open range and only fence areas they want to keep cattle or sheep out of. The corner crossings that I’ve experienced had no fences. There was a Trig Point marking the corner and you could step from one publicly owned property to another without ever encroaching on private property.

I believe the ladder discussed in the article was to climb over signs that didn't allow hunters to step over the corner marker. I’ve seen similar signs on both sides of county roads. They set them up in a fashion to make you believe that you can’t drive down the county road.

These public lands are often controlled by greedy land owners who own thousands of acres and don't want hunters, who aren’t clients, to harvest an Elk from these lands.

I personally know of one incident where a hunter legally shot a 5X5 Bull on Public Land and it dropped across the property line of one such landowner. The hunter drove to the landowners house and asked to retrieve the Elk. The landowner said he could only if he paid a $2 thousand dollar trespass fee. The hunter called the game warden who confirmed that as long as the elk was not moved by the landowner there was nothing he could do.





I hunt all over the west. I understand completely what’s going on. First, If you are even remotely relying on access to another persons property to retrieve an animal, You are hunting too close to property line, period. Goes for TX or Co, WY, NM etc. Would you hunt next to a fence line that’s felony trespass if you step a millimeter over? Of course not but there are government controlled lands that are that way. Majority of the states in US have same recovery laws. It’s up to the LO to give permission, it’s not required.

Regardless if there is a fence or not trespassing is trespassing. Stepping over a corner is trespassing as defined by the law. Wether it’s an inch or 1000 yards. The definition is the same. What you view as minimal encroachment could fully extend into something further reaching.

There is a ton of landlocked Federal public land, setting precedent to degrading private property rights isnt the answer to the fix IMO.

Many states it’s also illegal to post public land as private and there is legal recourse against it.





Except in this case they were acquitted of criminal trespass.

I agree to not using corner crossing as a solution to access.

There is a law on the federal register that talks about restricting airspace to access federally owned land. It is not exactly on point and I cannot remember where it is but there is precedent for the government to assert right of way in private airspace.

In this instance the hunters checked with both the game warden and county sheriff's office before crossing, after crossing when the game wardens were called, after the sheriff's office was called, and again after the landowner insisted they be charged.

I don't think the landowners are doing anything but defending their interests. That being said, the landowner's calculation of damages includes the assumption that he has sole access to the landlocked public land. This is absurd. It may have been his calculation when he purchased the property but his argument is flawed. If he wins the case, which would uphold his private property airspace rights, then there are no damages from the trespass as his valuation has been preserved. If he loses the case then there are no damages per se.

The solution is for the market to create an access option. If the owner is attempting to preserve hunting fees then the market could replace this with a private easement that allows limited access. I haven't given this much thought but I bet one could be created that allows for some type of draw for a fee with the proceeds going to the landowner. This does not address those landowners that are only concerned with their own hunting access. I think there is a significant minority of the absent landowners for which this is the case.

I don't think the landowners are necessarily "greedy" any more than I think the hunters are "slobs". There are competing interests here. In those cases we should default to the defense of private property rights. I believe the federal government has some leverage here to compel a settlement, although it is not an agreeable one, which is the threat of eminent domain. That would leave a bad taste for everyone.

If we want to resolve this issue, we need to come up with at private solution. I have paid trespass fees in the past and would pay them again if the need arises. The problem with this solution is two unknown parties have to negotiate the fee. This is time spent for both the owner and the hunter. A group, which a hunter can belong to for a fee, could negotiate access for it's members and indemnify the property owner for any damages caused. Violation of the rules would result in the hunter losing privilege as well as their membership fee. Failure of the owner to adhere to the agreement would be pursued by the group rather than the individual. The owner and group could negotiate access, number of hunters using the access point at a given time as well as define the rules during access.

With regards to posted signs on public access points. I have encountered these in both Arizona and Wyoming. In Wyoming a public road was gated with signs indicated no trespassing. This was a parcel that was listed as open for walk in hunting. A discussion with the game warden indicated that he was aware of the situation but the public will to resolve it was not there. I notified F and G that if they were going to lease land it should be open, barring that they should ask for their lease fee back. This was a unit that didn't have a lot of public land but did have a decent amount of walk in access, of which this was a major portion. I have encountered this in other parts of Wyoming as well. Posted signs on walk in areas.

In Arizona, access points across private property were marked "Posted No Trespassing" even though the state had existing agreements for trespass.

Finally, with regards to the quote in the article by Hal Herring, let's just say I've heard him before and am not a fan.


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Re: Is it public land [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8744458 11/28/22 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by JimBridger
By your definition, anyone who doesn't own thousands of acres can not ethically hunt their own property. That is an extremely cavalier attitude. Remember, game in free range is owned by the state not tge landowner.
Again your stretching what is clearly your opinion into what is the actual law. Corner Crossings have not been defined as trespassing. People get arrested all the time for questionable offenses. Many are not contested but those that are often result in acquittal.
I agree with you about the road issue. Like i said it is done to give the appearance to someone, mostly out of state hunters, that they can not drive down the roadway that leads to properties open to the public for hunting.


No that’s not what I said, I said don’t hold contempt towards someone else because of YOUR actions. There is a difference in a honest mistake and an expectation. You are making the argument that the expectation is, you should be able to trespass to recover an animal or access public land. Your argument is why we have strong trespassing laws in the west. When you force someone hand because of your entitlement, repercussions hurt all of us.

Look, the actual law is Air is Trespass, thus why a ticket and why it went to court. That WY court decided that no damage nor intent occurred and dropped the charges. It did not set precedent or define it like you suggest.

If you think there is no trespassing laws for space knock your self out. It’s you wallet that’s going to fight it in court.

It’s not a cavalier attitude, it’s one that respects people’s property, homes, cars, land etc. it’s also and attitude that understands there are better ways of access then degrading private property rights and laws.

You are making an entitlement argument that could carry over to even stronger laws. Instead of trying to force hands we need to expand access programs that are mutually beneficial.

There is ZERO wrong or deceptive with posting private property.


Wow! Your arguments are full of assumption. I’ve never claimed that you should be able to trespass on someone’s property to access landlocked public land or to collect game that crosses the property line. The fact is, there shouldn’t be publicly owned land that is land locked. That could and should be corrected by the state or federal agency who owns the land through land swaps. I have never crossed a property line without permission of the owner. and do not advocate for those who do. I’ve always had mutual agreements with my neighbors and they don’t even require a call before crossing but i would call anyway if the need arises.

Your entitlement argument is certainly an elitist one. You call it respect, but yet give non in return. You are trying to dictate how small property owners and other hunters who may not be able to afford to pay for a guided hunt but can afford DIY hunts.

Corner Crossings is unsettled law. You can claim it’s trespassing all you want but it doesn't make it so. The entitled ones are those who insist on prosecuting these cases. Even though bills have been introduced in western states to make it law, they all died without ever coming to a vote to make it law.

You don’t seem to have a problem with land owners making money off of guiding hunters on public land that they claim exclusive rights to.

Is it not entitlement for a wealthy land owner to claim exclusive rights to publicly owned property?
Is it not entitlement to say, a person can’t hunt on a quarter section of land since an animal may leave his property?
.










Q


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Re: Is it public land [Re: jnd59] #8744495 11/28/22 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jnd59
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by JimBridger
Most of you are thinking of what you regularly experience in Texas. Many western states have open range and only fence areas they want to keep cattle or sheep out of. The corner crossings that I’ve experienced had no fences. There was a Trig Point marking the corner and you could step from one publicly owned property to another without ever encroaching on private property.

I believe the ladder discussed in the article was to climb over signs that didn't allow hunters to step over the corner marker. I’ve seen similar signs on both sides of county roads. They set them up in a fashion to make you believe that you can’t drive down the county road.

These public lands are often controlled by greedy land owners who own thousands of acres and don't want hunters, who aren’t clients, to harvest an Elk from these lands.

I personally know of one incident where a hunter legally shot a 5X5 Bull on Public Land and it dropped across the property line of one such landowner. The hunter drove to the landowners house and asked to retrieve the Elk. The landowner said he could only if he paid a $2 thousand dollar trespass fee. The hunter called the game warden who confirmed that as long as the elk was not moved by the landowner there was nothing he could do.





I hunt all over the west. I understand completely what’s going on. First, If you are even remotely relying on access to another persons property to retrieve an animal, You are hunting too close to property line, period. Goes for TX or Co, WY, NM etc. Would you hunt next to a fence line that’s felony trespass if you step a millimeter over? Of course not but there are government controlled lands that are that way. Majority of the states in US have same recovery laws. It’s up to the LO to give permission, it’s not required.

Regardless if there is a fence or not trespassing is trespassing. Stepping over a corner is trespassing as defined by the law. Wether it’s an inch or 1000 yards. The definition is the same. What you view as minimal encroachment could fully extend into something further reaching.

There is a ton of landlocked Federal public land, setting precedent to degrading private property rights isnt the answer to the fix IMO.

Many states it’s also illegal to post public land as private and there is legal recourse against it.





Except in this case they were acquitted of criminal trespass.

I agree to not using corner crossing as a solution to access.

There is a law on the federal register that talks about restricting airspace to access federally owned land. It is not exactly on point and I cannot remember where it is but there is precedent for the government to assert right of way in private airspace.

In this instance the hunters checked with both the game warden and county sheriff's office before crossing, after crossing when the game wardens were called, after the sheriff's office was called, and again after the landowner insisted they be charged.

I don't think the landowners are doing anything but defending their interests. That being said, the landowner's calculation of damages includes the assumption that he has sole access to the landlocked public land. This is absurd. It may have been his calculation when he purchased the property but his argument is flawed. If he wins the case, which would uphold his private property airspace rights, then there are no damages from the trespass as his valuation has been preserved. If he loses the case then there are no damages per se.

The solution is for the market to create an access option. If the owner is attempting to preserve hunting fees then the market could replace this with a private easement that allows limited access. I haven't given this much thought but I bet one could be created that allows for some type of draw for a fee with the proceeds going to the landowner. This does not address those landowners that are only concerned with their own hunting access. I think there is a significant minority of the absent landowners for which this is the case.

I don't think the landowners are necessarily "greedy" any more than I think the hunters are "slobs". There are competing interests here. In those cases we should default to the defense of private property rights. I believe the federal government has some leverage here to compel a settlement, although it is not an agreeable one, which is the threat of eminent domain. That would leave a bad taste for everyone.

If we want to resolve this issue, we need to come up with at private solution. I have paid trespass fees in the past and would pay them again if the need arises. The problem with this solution is two unknown parties have to negotiate the fee. This is time spent for both the owner and the hunter. A group, which a hunter can belong to for a fee, could negotiate access for it's members and indemnify the property owner for any damages caused. Violation of the rules would result in the hunter losing privilege as well as their membership fee. Failure of the owner to adhere to the agreement would be pursued by the group rather than the individual. The owner and group could negotiate access, number of hunters using the access point at a given time as well as define the rules during access.

With regards to posted signs on public access points. I have encountered these in both Arizona and Wyoming. In Wyoming a public road was gated with signs indicated no trespassing. This was a parcel that was listed as open for walk in hunting. A discussion with the game warden indicated that he was aware of the situation but the public will to resolve it was not there. I notified F and G that if they were going to lease land it should be open, barring that they should ask for their lease fee back. This was a unit that didn't have a lot of public land but did have a decent amount of walk in access, of which this was a major portion. I have encountered this in other parts of Wyoming as well. Posted signs on walk in areas.

In Arizona, access points across private property were marked "Posted No Trespassing" even though the state had existing agreements for trespass.

Finally, with regards to the quote in the article by Hal Herring, let's just say I've heard him before and am not a fan.


you are aligning with what I’m saying. The civil suit IMO is dumb but it’s also scary as a hunter. Acquitted or dismissed it still didn’t set precedent and you can still be charged and ticketed for trespass for corner hoping.

All states have a list of properties that have hunting and access agreements in place. Those agreements are specific in their abilities and time frames. A no trespassing sign is not relevant to hunting if that agreement is in place but fire wood, camping, arrow heads etc. would be or maybe even something like July access. At end of the day the burden is on you to know. Not for the lessor to post.

Also remember walk in hunting doesn’t always mandate road usage.

At on time I thought I was all for land swaps, but there has to be enough value to both parties. The loser would be the public land owner more so as we would most likely loose acreage to gain access. Exception would be if the LO was mandated. If it was mandated then LO could loose a lot(like water rights) just to appease a few hunters, that’s no right either.

There has been case of the law coming down hard on LO/Outfitter for hunting on land locked public land. Outfitter in NM got hit hard for hunting/killing elk on landlocked BLM land via a private land/ranch only elk tags.


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Re: Is it public land [Re: JimBridger] #8744514 11/28/22 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JimBridger
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by JimBridger
By your definition, anyone who doesn't own thousands of acres can not ethically hunt their own property. That is an extremely cavalier attitude. Remember, game in free range is owned by the state not tge landowner.
Again your stretching what is clearly your opinion into what is the actual law. Corner Crossings have not been defined as trespassing. People get arrested all the time for questionable offenses. Many are not contested but those that are often result in acquittal.
I agree with you about the road issue. Like i said it is done to give the appearance to someone, mostly out of state hunters, that they can not drive down the roadway that leads to properties open to the public for hunting.


No that’s not what I said, I said don’t hold contempt towards someone else because of YOUR actions. There is a difference in a honest mistake and an expectation. You are making the argument that the expectation is, you should be able to trespass to recover an animal or access public land. Your argument is why we have strong trespassing laws in the west. When you force someone hand because of your entitlement, repercussions hurt all of us.

Look, the actual law is Air is Trespass, thus why a ticket and why it went to court. That WY court decided that no damage nor intent occurred and dropped the charges. It did not set precedent or define it like you suggest.

If you think there is no trespassing laws for space knock your self out. It’s you wallet that’s going to fight it in court.

It’s not a cavalier attitude, it’s one that respects people’s property, homes, cars, land etc. it’s also and attitude that understands there are better ways of access then degrading private property rights and laws.

You are making an entitlement argument that could carry over to even stronger laws. Instead of trying to force hands we need to expand access programs that are mutually beneficial.

There is ZERO wrong or deceptive with posting private property.


Wow! Your arguments are full of assumption. I’ve never claimed that you should be able to trespass on someone’s property to access landlocked public land or to collect game that crosses the property line. The fact is, there shouldn’t be publicly owned land that is land locked. That could and should be corrected by the state or federal agency who owns the land through land swaps. I have never crossed a property line without permission of the owner. and do not advocate for those who do. I’ve always had mutual agreements with my neighbors and they don’t even require a call before crossing but i would call anyway if the need arises.

Your entitlement argument is certainly an elitist one. You call it respect, but yet give non in return. You are trying to dictate how small property owners and other hunters who may not be able to afford to pay for a guided hunt but can afford DIY hunts.

Corner Crossings is unsettled law. You can claim it’s trespassing all you want but it doesn't make it so. The entitled ones are those who insist on prosecuting these cases. Even though bills have been introduced in western states to make it law, they all died without ever coming to a vote to make it law.

You don’t seem to have a problem with land owners making money off of guiding hunters on public land that they claim exclusive rights to.

Is it not entitlement for a wealthy land owner to claim exclusive rights to publicly owned property?
Is it not entitlement to say, a person can’t hunt on a quarter section of land since an animal may leave his property?
.


Q


If you want to solve the LO entitlement issue that you see, make all private land hunting ranch only OTC tags. Then they can no long hunt the federal land anymore. That doesn’t affect private properties rights or set precedent to degrade rights, or even better work for more access funded programs. Any way you shape it you are crossing someone else’s land when you corner cross. That’s just facts.

If you are hunting close to a fence line and think you should have the given ability to trespass and retrieve that animal, then it’s entitlement. You choose to hunt their fully know the odds of that animal crossing fence.

How is it I hunt out west in multiple states 20 -40 days a year for past 20 plus years and have never once thought I would have a retrieval issue of my animal jumping on to Private? I either know I could get permission a head of time or I hunted else where. It’s that simple.

Again it’s never been an issue for me, I hunt public all over the west. I have no idea what you fixation is on guided/ private land hunts vs public. Why would you hunt next to a property you know your legal recovery chances are zero?

I’m not about to trample on LO rights because it always sets precedent for more loss of rights as it trickles down to all property owners.



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Re: Is it public land [Re: tigger] #8744525 11/28/22 08:17 PM
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I see your point about posted signs. The one in question in eastern Wyoming had a no hunting sign but that is the only one in Wyoming that I couldn't construe otherwise. The others make sense in your context above.

The Arizona trespass was just that. Agreed easement to access public land although it could be construed as a one way access as the posted signs were on the public land side.

If I'm not mistaken, the civil case, as with the criminal case, were both filed in the district court. That means whatever the resolution, it only applies to that county (or district, if they overlap) unless they are appealed. Both cases would have (had) to rise to the Wyoming supreme court to have any bearing on the rest of the state.

The most pressing consequence of ignoring private air space is the use of drones. Currently, I could compel someone using a drone in my airspace to cease (although in my case the tools I would choose to compel would be much swifter than the legal system). If we degrade that right, then these are the issues we will have to deal with. Drones can be flown precisely. If two diagonal landowners decide a drone can exist in at their crossing point, and I am a third landowner at that crossing point, I would have no recourse to a drone setting on (or moving back an forth through) that crossing point. While there are other laws that protect the expectation of privacy in ones backyard the question still remains.

It does chap me that public land access is locked up. One of these days these helicopter services that shuttle hunters to the locked lands is going to really take off. Then landowners are going to have to decide whether to put up with helicopters continuously moving across their property or decide to manage the access as a moneymaker. I see opportunities here. I'm just too damn old to start another business.


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Re: Is it public land [Re: jnd59] #8744593 11/28/22 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jnd59
I see your point about posted signs. The one in question in eastern Wyoming had a no hunting sign but that is the only one in Wyoming that I couldn't construe otherwise. The others make sense in your context above.

The Arizona trespass was just that. Agreed easement to access public land although it could be construed as a one way access as the posted signs were on the public land side.

If I'm not mistaken, the civil case, as with the criminal case, were both filed in the district court. That means whatever the resolution, it only applies to that county (or district, if they overlap) unless they are appealed. Both cases would have (had) to rise to the Wyoming supreme court to have any bearing on the rest of the state.

The most pressing consequence of ignoring private air space is the use of drones. Currently, I could compel someone using a drone in my airspace to cease (although in my case the tools I would choose to compel would be much swifter than the legal system). If we degrade that right, then these are the issues we will have to deal with. Drones can be flown precisely. If two diagonal landowners decide a drone can exist in at their crossing point, and I am a third landowner at that crossing point, I would have no recourse to a drone setting on (or moving back an forth through) that crossing point. While there are other laws that protect the expectation of privacy in ones backyard the question still remains.

It does chap me that public land access is locked up. One of these days these helicopter services that shuttle hunters to the locked lands is going to really take off. Then landowners are going to have to decide whether to put up with helicopters continuously moving across their property or decide to manage the access as a moneymaker. I see opportunities here. I'm just too damn old to start another business.


There are always bad apples on both sides of the fence.

The helicopter business is in full swing. If you plan on using one book way in advance. Randy Newberg lit that one on fire about 6 years ago with a TV show doing it. Also be smart as most the locked federal land isnt large quantities that can support multi day hunts. A section of prairie ain’t much. Once you are there you are there.

I normally carry on or in truck the walk in lists for states I’m hunting. Okla has their own signs the state puts out with that said, it’s not always LO posting or pulling signs also. NM’s list I think now shows up as an onX layer, as for ID,MT and CO.







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Re: Is it public land [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8744640 11/28/22 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
[
[

If you want to solve the LO entitlement issue that you see, make all private land hunting ranch only OTC tags. Then they can no long hunt the federal land anymore. That doesn’t affect private properties rights or set precedent to degrade rights, or even better work for more access funded programs. Any way you shape it you are crossing someone else’s land when you corner cross. That’s just facts.

If you are hunting close to a fence line and think you should have the given ability to trespass and retrieve that animal, then it’s entitlement. You choose to hunt their fully know the odds of that animal crossing fence.

How is it I hunt out west in multiple states 20 -40 days a year for past 20 plus years and have never once thought I would have a retrieval issue of my animal jumping on to Private? I either know I could get permission a head of time or I hunted else where. It’s that simple.

Again it’s never been an issue for me, I hunt public all over the west. I have no idea what you fixation is on guided/ private land hunts vs public. Why would you hunt next to a property you know your legal recovery chances are zero?

I’m not about to trample on LO rights because it always sets precedent for more loss of rights as it trickles down to all property owners.



I have no fixation on guided/private lands vs public. I stated facts, that some large land owners claim exclusive rights to publicly funded land.
I don’t hunt or enter land where I don’t have permission or a legal right to be.. Period!




Last edited by JimBridger; 11/28/22 09:43 PM.

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Re: Is it public land [Re: tigger] #8745310 11/29/22 03:21 PM
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Wow, lots of misinformation here but carry on, it is very entertaining.

Re: Is it public land [Re: tigger] #8745340 11/29/22 03:54 PM
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I don't think it is that big a deal in Texas because there isn't that much public land but I started in Colorado with a lot of public land and access is an issue. There have been situations where people had been told to leave PUBLIC land or they will be shot for trespassing. The famous case was a group that went in BY A LEGAL right of way and then hiked for miles to a remote corner to hunt. The ranch hands that were going to shoot them said they could have ONLY REACHED the public land by trespassing over private ranch property so they were trespassers and had to leave. I've run into the same situation, facing a nearby landowner pointing a rifle at me and telling me that part of the National Forest IS HIS.
Want even more unbelievable stuff? There was a ranch in Colorado, been in the family for 4 generations, the fourth decided to sign a deal with the Nature Conservancy so the ranch could never be turned into a shopping center, etc. It so happened that the ranch paid $1 per year per acre to the BLM for the land. THEY DIDN'T ACTUALLY OWN IT, but they claimed they owned it and the financing arrangement had nothing to do with it.
All that said, years ago folks shut cattle gates, etc. I don't blame ranchers for clamping down on letting folks cross the ranch lands. There is a .liability issue as well. Years ago folks had enough common sense to stay far away from bulls, etc. The rancher could be held liable if a bull injures someone allowed on his land.
What to do, I'm not for encroaching on private property rights. There could be a legal purchase for public access. There could be a requirement that entrance must be through a check point, so a rancher abutting a National Forest can't cross from his land into the National Forest, he must go in the same as everyone else- otherwise you get this "The National Forest is my property" My deer stand is just inside the National Forest next to MY LAND, no one should use my Tree stand, etc. etc.

Re: Is it public land [Re: tigger] #8745363 11/29/22 04:25 PM
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This argument that a law/legal precedent allowing the public to cross approximately less than or equal to 200 square ft of airspace out of the hundreds of thousands of square feet of air space the LO “owns” without ever touching the LO’s fences or property is in my opinion a stretch. Is it illegal or considered trespass if while on public land you touch the fence of the neighboring LO? All public land borders private. This idea that public access makes damage to the adjacent LO’s property a foregone conclusion is ridiculous. The LO already borders public land with access. The landlocked public land is not the only thing keeping him from going out of business. I too oppose the erosion of private property rights but excluding the public from public land is not a private property right.

Sure, someone might shoot something that makes it onto private before expiring and that’s a risk they can choose to take just as can a private property owner hunting close to the property line. This isn’t at all relevant in this argument.

Re: Is it public land [Re: DonPablo] #8745376 11/29/22 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DonPablo
This argument that a law/legal precedent allowing the public to cross approximately less than or equal to 200 square ft of airspace out of the hundreds of thousands of square feet of air space the LO “owns” without ever touching the LO’s fences or property is in my opinion a stretch. Is it illegal or considered trespass if while on public land you touch the fence of the neighboring LO? All public land borders private. This idea that public access makes damage to the adjacent LO’s property a foregone conclusion is ridiculous. The LO already borders public land with access. The landlocked public land is not the only thing keeping him from going out of business. I too oppose the erosion of private property rights but excluding the public from public land is not a private property right.

Sure, someone might shoot something that makes it onto private before expiring and that’s a risk they can choose to take just as can a private property owner hunting close to the property line. This isn’t at all relevant in this argument.


His civil suit is stupid. I hope it gets tossed

Fence are lines of convenience and not always actual property line.

Until State Supreme courts rule, it’s all up to local jurisdiction interpretation.

I think corner crossing should be left up to the landowners to decide individually if they are good with it. Not a fan of blanket authorization


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Re: Is it public land [Re: Wytex] #8745384 11/29/22 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Wytex
Wow, lots of misinformation here but carry on, it is very entertaining.


I believe you have a lot of personal experience based on where you live. This is an interesting thread. What are a couple of examples of the misinformation? Your experience could be helpful.


To be determined
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