Okay, I get what you are saying now.
You might be right.

But there is another possability that you don't seem to have considered.

Why wouldn't it be possible for a animal that is a hybred but more Red Wolf then Coyote to have moved from where there are know Red Wolf populations to where this animal was seen?

Again, I don't know anything about Red Wolves but I do know that animals can show up a long way away from where they are normally found.

In 2019 a Fort Chipewyan hunter shot and killed a Muskox. Fort Chipewyan is in northern Alberta, about two hundred miles further north then where I am.
The extreem southern border of the Muskox's normal range is over 500 miles north of where this one was shot.
The story wound up on the news.

Link to the story.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/arctic-muskox-northern-alberta-1.5225396

You can’t compare a musk ox or caribou to a red wolf. Red wolfs have for all intents and purposes become extinct in the wild. There are a few known coyote/wolf hybrids living on Galveston island ( remember the word island here ) but whatever wolf DNA a coyote has in it is gonna be in the minority in regards to mainland animals. You simply cannot cite an example of a wayward animal to a species that has been extinct in the wild for decades.

I could go along with the theory that there are coyotes living today with red wolf DNA. But a true hybrid, not likely.

Animals vary in size just like everything else. I’ve seen a bobcat shot that was 76 lbs… a big Tom bobcat will normally be around 35. It was just a rare example of a big bobcat it was not a bobcat/lynx hybrid or a cross with a mountain lion.

It seems that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service are not as convinced as you are that they are extinct in the wild.


Quoted from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Red Wolf Recovery Program

About 50 years ago there was a small pack of red wolves, 7 or 8, about 50 miles Southwest of Fort Worth. I saw them and talked to a guy I knew with TPWD. He confirmed what I had seen from other sightings. Only wolves I’ve ever seen out of a zoo.

Hogwart,

You got me. A red wolf must have walked from North Carolina down here to Texas.

Thanks for clearing that up

I believe that is one possibility. It was the point of the Muskox example. Things like that have happened. I could have used the example of a Lynx that was radio collared in the Yukon and later showed up in Northern Alberta some 1,800 miles from where it was collared.

But I believe it is also possible that what was seen could have been a hybrid local to where it was seen.
No one is arguing that it was pure Red Wolf genetically, only that it had enough Red Wolf genetics to appear to be a Red Wolf.

Something I should maybe have explained. I am trained and certified to do population studies, not specifically of mammals but the principals involved are the same.
It is fact that population studies simply can not look in every possible location. They look only at the most likely locations and use mathmatics to calculate the likelyhood that they missed something.

That was the point of the Ferret story.

Did these walk from North Carolina as well?


Compare that to the picture I posted earlier in this thread and it might change your perspective. The young man holding that canine is my son. So first hand there are canines here in Texas that appear to possess the coloration, heavier body type and conformation of the once thought extinct in Texas Red Wolf that has since been confirmed as being present on The Texas coast.

Coydog is another possibility.

That is exactly what I suspected could be the case, but I had no idea those had been discovered.
Thanks for posting that.

Hope those NC wolves know how to swim, and are good at dodging sharks….or know how to hitch a ride on the ferry

I'm not convinced red wolves were actually a separate species. I'm more inclined to believe they were coyote/wolf hybrids. Look at the time period when they were "discovered."consider the scientific knowledge/understanding back then. I believe we need to completely revamp the way we categorize species/subspecies these days and tie it more directly to genetics.

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum...alveston-island-ghost-wolves#Post8663162

I am inclined to agree with you.

Simply because we know that there are at least some genetic differance between individuals of a single species. How much differance consatutes a new speces or a subspecies has to be a best guess. IMO

I’m not knowledgeable about wolves but know quite a bit about coyotes. And, I wouldn’t be inclined to believe that the red wolves I saw many years ago had any song dog in them.

The Galveston population has already been decided by the lack of federal protection. Simply too large of coyote DNA present to classify it other than coy-wolf. Toss in the fact that the only reason it isn’t degraded more then it is, is because it’s isolated and essentially on an Island. Coyote is the dominant species of the two on mainland US.

There is zero chance of an overwelming hybrid existing on mainland for same reason the eastern version is done. The Coyote presence and influence is to great.

Same reason you cant release “A” breeder buck and expect all the sudden to have lots of 200” bucks running around in future. Native genes will wash out any influence the breeder had. The Coyote will simply genetic swap out the red wolf. Don’t know why it would be any different here than what’s already been proven on the south east coast.

After watching Yellowstone. I learned shooting one with a collar is a problem. Don’t put collar on a log.

I simply don't know enough about genetics to take a stand for or against the existence of Red Wolves.

But my research into Red Wolves led me to a newspaper report that claims that one study determined that there is only one species of true Wolf left in North America, and it isn't the Red Wolf.

I can believe that.

https://www.latimes.com/science/sci...0727-snap-story-20160727-snap-story.html

I think the Mexican wolf is still good also, although I know when the started with the program they got really worried about genetic diversity with in the pack. With that said it f they introduced Canadians into southern CO it won’t be long before that breed is gone

What I gathered from the report I linked is that the only pure Wolf left in North America is the Mexican Gray Wolf, Not the Timber Wolf as some may expect

after collecting Savage lever guns for 40+ years I have learned to "never say never" when you think you have every avenue figured out something shows up

? What does collecting rifles have to do with wolves?

If I may,

I think the answer to that is in this line;


I know this, there are hundreds of examples where science as declared something to be true where later evidence forced them to change that position.
One example comes to mind immediately,
That being that Chimpanzees were strict vegetarians. Something science claimed for many years, until Chimps were observed hunting and eating Monkeys, and later other mammals.

A second example was quoted by me earlier on this thread. That being the declaration by scientists that the Black Footed ferret was extinct. That had to be retracted later when a small population was found alive and well were no one had looked for them.

Let’s give an easier example. If you stuck a female puddle in with labs males, how many generations does it take for the poodle to be come more lab then poodle? And how many generations would it take to loose enough that the poodle genes aren’t expressed in appearance.

The North Carolina re- introduction and efforts proved that unless, the Red population is large enough to suppress the coyote population that the coyote will bred out the red wolf genetic line.

That’s why scientists got excited about the isolated Island population of hybrids, it was new genetics to add to a capitive breeding program. They would have to severely dilute the large coyote influence through capitive breading, but what wolf DNA that was there could help give more genetic diversity to the the NC genes.

A large yote is just a large yote. Average mason Tx hill country buck at maturity might be 120-130lb, but improve carrying capacity exponentially and it won’t be long before those bucks push 200lbs. You also have Bergman’s rule that could be applied also

Man, I never would have thought Texas Dan would have a Canadian counterpart

Ralph Bridges ran wolf hounds around Denton county into the 1990's. He told me while we were hunting that there were still a few pairs of Timber Wolves in the Trinity River bottoms and that the TPWD didn't want anyone to know they were still around. He said in 1989 when I hunted with him that they would run into a wolf ever so often but would call in the hounds if they got on it. A timber wolf's stamina is twice that of a Coyote and a wolf would run hounds into the ground. He said in the 50's and 60's when there were a lot of wolves they would use two packs of dogs and pull the first set in after 6 or so hours and release fresh hounds. Since there is no way to run hounds around here anymore I tend to think they are still around. So you can believe your government or someone who actually hunted them that says they still exist around DFW, the choice is yours?