Red Wolves?

I swear I had a red wolf cruise past me this morning while I was in the stand, I know it sounds crazy but I’m about 98% sure it was.

Do any of y’all know if they’re making a comeback, or maybe crossed the border with everyone else? I’m in Edwards County, Carta valley

It was way too big to be a yote and colored different.

Pics would have been helpful.

Fewer than twenty red wolves remain in the wild. At Fossil Rim Wildlife Center in Glen Rose, biologists are trying to change that.

Link

https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-274-farewell-red-wolf

Picture of it dead is what I would like to see.

Ok I guess I was right to have my 2% doubt LOL.

There’s no way I could’ve got a pic it was gone in the brush after 2-3 seconds.

I was sure hoping y’all would’ve said yeah they are coming back, now I wonder WTF it was. Looked like a wolf LOL.
Thanks fellas.

Who knows but it wouldn’t have been pure or majority

After looking at lots of pic, I guess it could have been a very large coyote. Wish I could’ve seen it longer

I know I saw a wolf around Bowie about 20 years ago. No way it was a coyote or a dog/coyote hybrid. The experts will tell you there are no wolves there. I know I saw one.

Those Red fox can fool you sometimes

Unless it escaped from the Victoria Zoo or Fossil Rim or made it's way to you from North Carolina, it's pretty much impossible that's what you saw.

I have heard about possible sightings of red wolves down at the Galvan, but they are only seen when running with black panthers.

Anything is possible.

The Black Footed Ferret proved that.

Lot easier for a blk footed ferret to stay lost then a 45-80lb pack animal

Is the Red Wolf the new Black Panther of the board?

Here’s one….


This one is having a standoff with a puma….

not to mention a ferret can't breed with anything else.


If there was a wolf that escaped extermination way back it would have bred or been bred by coyotes and it's genes would be so diluted at present time.



But don't let facts get in the way of a good story

If so, then it might be possible for a Red Wolf to blend in with the Coyotes and go unnoticed, would it not?

Easier for an animal that looks a lot like a common species to go unnoticed then for one that looks like nothing else, don't you think?

I'm not saying I think it was a Red Wolf. I'm just saying I accept that the observer knows more then I do about what he saw.

This I know, animals as big as Deer can live right next to people and few would even know.

I also know that some people can accurately identify an animal they have never seen before while others can look at an animal they have seen many times and not recognize it for what it is.

About ten years ago the wife and I were driving on a rural road when we observed an animal cross the road near half a mile in front of us.
I knew right away it was something I had never seen before.

It was about the size of a Deer but I knew by the way it walked it was not a Deer or an Elk. The only option left was a Caribou.
So I said to the wife, that's a Caribou. She thought I had lost my mind. This is not Caribou territory.

But that's what it turned out to be and I have photos to prove it.

It turns out there is a small herd of them and they've been here for many years, and even though they are surrounded by farm land, only a handful of people have ever seen them.

It’s not possible for a red wolf to escape detection because the animal wouldn’t be a red wolf. It would be a product of a redwolf great great great great grandparent and a coyote and that offspring would have been bred with coyotes so you would have a animal that presently would be only a fraction red wolf and the rest coyote and therefore would look like a coyote.

I’m not arguing with anything posted above.
But… and there is ALWAYS a but…

Anyone here ever heard of “recessive genes?”

Just last year a guy in Louisiana killed a whitetail that had canine fangs and a black mask. These traits died out eons ago in most modern WT deer.

Makes me wonder…

SFH

https://www.themeateater.com/wired-to-hunt/whitetail-management/why-some-whitetails-grow-fangs

I believe there are red wolf/coyote hybrids north of the verified population on the coastal prairie. They are not protected or recognized as wolves but the coloring and body type appear to indicate they are there. I am involved in a project with TP&W and the Wild Turkey Federation attempting to establish a stable population of Eastern Wild Turkey on some large tracts of private land in the piney woods. Predator hunting is included. While controlling the predators some large canines initially thought to be coyotes have been encountered. A few have been shot for coyotes. This is a picture of one that weighed 76 pounds. The coloration is very similar to the red wolf. As is the heavier body. No genetic work has been done so at this point it is speculation but I believe it to be the case.

Okay, I get what you are saying now.
You might be right.

But there is another possability that you don't seem to have considered.

Why wouldn't it be possible for a animal that is a hybred but more Red Wolf then Coyote to have moved from where there are know Red Wolf populations to where this animal was seen?

Again, I don't know anything about Red Wolves but I do know that animals can show up a long way away from where they are normally found.

In 2019 a Fort Chipewyan hunter shot and killed a Muskox. Fort Chipewyan is in northern Alberta, about two hundred miles further north then where I am.
The extreem southern border of the Muskox's normal range is over 500 miles north of where this one was shot.
The story wound up on the news.

Link to the story.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/arctic-muskox-northern-alberta-1.5225396

You can’t compare a musk ox or caribou to a red wolf. Red wolfs have for all intents and purposes become extinct in the wild. There are a few known coyote/wolf hybrids living on Galveston island ( remember the word island here ) but whatever wolf DNA a coyote has in it is gonna be in the minority in regards to mainland animals. You simply cannot cite an example of a wayward animal to a species that has been extinct in the wild for decades.

I could go along with the theory that there are coyotes living today with red wolf DNA. But a true hybrid, not likely.

Animals vary in size just like everything else. I’ve seen a bobcat shot that was 76 lbs… a big Tom bobcat will normally be around 35. It was just a rare example of a big bobcat it was not a bobcat/lynx hybrid or a cross with a mountain lion.

It seems that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service are not as convinced as you are that they are extinct in the wild.


Quoted from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Red Wolf Recovery Program

About 50 years ago there was a small pack of red wolves, 7 or 8, about 50 miles Southwest of Fort Worth. I saw them and talked to a guy I knew with TPWD. He confirmed what I had seen from other sightings. Only wolves I’ve ever seen out of a zoo.

Hogwart,

You got me. A red wolf must have walked from North Carolina down here to Texas.

Thanks for clearing that up

I believe that is one possibility. It was the point of the Muskox example. Things like that have happened. I could have used the example of a Lynx that was radio collared in the Yukon and later showed up in Northern Alberta some 1,800 miles from where it was collared.

But I believe it is also possible that what was seen could have been a hybrid local to where it was seen.
No one is arguing that it was pure Red Wolf genetically, only that it had enough Red Wolf genetics to appear to be a Red Wolf.

Something I should maybe have explained. I am trained and certified to do population studies, not specifically of mammals but the principals involved are the same.
It is fact that population studies simply can not look in every possible location. They look only at the most likely locations and use mathmatics to calculate the likelyhood that they missed something.

That was the point of the Ferret story.

Did these walk from North Carolina as well?


Compare that to the picture I posted earlier in this thread and it might change your perspective. The young man holding that canine is my son. So first hand there are canines here in Texas that appear to possess the coloration, heavier body type and conformation of the once thought extinct in Texas Red Wolf that has since been confirmed as being present on The Texas coast.

Coydog is another possibility.

That is exactly what I suspected could be the case, but I had no idea those had been discovered.
Thanks for posting that.

Hope those NC wolves know how to swim, and are good at dodging sharks….or know how to hitch a ride on the ferry

I'm not convinced red wolves were actually a separate species. I'm more inclined to believe they were coyote/wolf hybrids. Look at the time period when they were "discovered."consider the scientific knowledge/understanding back then. I believe we need to completely revamp the way we categorize species/subspecies these days and tie it more directly to genetics.

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum...alveston-island-ghost-wolves#Post8663162

I am inclined to agree with you.

Simply because we know that there are at least some genetic differance between individuals of a single species. How much differance consatutes a new speces or a subspecies has to be a best guess. IMO

I’m not knowledgeable about wolves but know quite a bit about coyotes. And, I wouldn’t be inclined to believe that the red wolves I saw many years ago had any song dog in them.

The Galveston population has already been decided by the lack of federal protection. Simply too large of coyote DNA present to classify it other than coy-wolf. Toss in the fact that the only reason it isn’t degraded more then it is, is because it’s isolated and essentially on an Island. Coyote is the dominant species of the two on mainland US.

There is zero chance of an overwelming hybrid existing on mainland for same reason the eastern version is done. The Coyote presence and influence is to great.

Same reason you cant release “A” breeder buck and expect all the sudden to have lots of 200” bucks running around in future. Native genes will wash out any influence the breeder had. The Coyote will simply genetic swap out the red wolf. Don’t know why it would be any different here than what’s already been proven on the south east coast.

After watching Yellowstone. I learned shooting one with a collar is a problem. Don’t put collar on a log.

I simply don't know enough about genetics to take a stand for or against the existence of Red Wolves.

But my research into Red Wolves led me to a newspaper report that claims that one study determined that there is only one species of true Wolf left in North America, and it isn't the Red Wolf.

I can believe that.

https://www.latimes.com/science/sci...0727-snap-story-20160727-snap-story.html

I think the Mexican wolf is still good also, although I know when the started with the program they got really worried about genetic diversity with in the pack. With that said it f they introduced Canadians into southern CO it won’t be long before that breed is gone

What I gathered from the report I linked is that the only pure Wolf left in North America is the Mexican Gray Wolf, Not the Timber Wolf as some may expect

after collecting Savage lever guns for 40+ years I have learned to "never say never" when you think you have every avenue figured out something shows up

? What does collecting rifles have to do with wolves?

If I may,

I think the answer to that is in this line;


I know this, there are hundreds of examples where science as declared something to be true where later evidence forced them to change that position.
One example comes to mind immediately,
That being that Chimpanzees were strict vegetarians. Something science claimed for many years, until Chimps were observed hunting and eating Monkeys, and later other mammals.

A second example was quoted by me earlier on this thread. That being the declaration by scientists that the Black Footed ferret was extinct. That had to be retracted later when a small population was found alive and well were no one had looked for them.

Let’s give an easier example. If you stuck a female puddle in with labs males, how many generations does it take for the poodle to be come more lab then poodle? And how many generations would it take to loose enough that the poodle genes aren’t expressed in appearance.

The North Carolina re- introduction and efforts proved that unless, the Red population is large enough to suppress the coyote population that the coyote will bred out the red wolf genetic line.

That’s why scientists got excited about the isolated Island population of hybrids, it was new genetics to add to a capitive breeding program. They would have to severely dilute the large coyote influence through capitive breading, but what wolf DNA that was there could help give more genetic diversity to the the NC genes.

A large yote is just a large yote. Average mason Tx hill country buck at maturity might be 120-130lb, but improve carrying capacity exponentially and it won’t be long before those bucks push 200lbs. You also have Bergman’s rule that could be applied also

Man, I never would have thought Texas Dan would have a Canadian counterpart

Ralph Bridges ran wolf hounds around Denton county into the 1990's. He told me while we were hunting that there were still a few pairs of Timber Wolves in the Trinity River bottoms and that the TPWD didn't want anyone to know they were still around. He said in 1989 when I hunted with him that they would run into a wolf ever so often but would call in the hounds if they got on it. A timber wolf's stamina is twice that of a Coyote and a wolf would run hounds into the ground. He said in the 50's and 60's when there were a lot of wolves they would use two packs of dogs and pull the first set in after 6 or so hours and release fresh hounds. Since there is no way to run hounds around here anymore I tend to think they are still around. So you can believe your government or someone who actually hunted them that says they still exist around DFW, the choice is yours?

Info that I read about Red Wolves were they were common through out SW TX, West, TX & New Mexico., last I heard here was a small population in New Mexico

That’s not red wolves that Mexican grey wolves. It’s a subspecies

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_wolf

Yep had my breeds mixed up, it was the Mexican wolf I was thinking of in that region, not the Red.

That pack got a lot of controversy few years ago. The alpha male killed some cattle and the female biologist hid the proof it was him to keep him alive. Her defense was the make was needed for genetic diversity

yea I shot one in 2013 weighed 64#. I have photos on game cam to. Ive heard them howl. they sound like wolves. when the coyotes start singing they stop immediately when the wolves howl. I was covered up last december and they are starting to show more and my deer have disapeard again. I have red one grey ones and one melanistic on camera.

[quote=Smokey Bear]Did these walk from North Carolina as well?


Compare that to the picture I posted earlier in this thread and it might change your perspective. The young man holding that canine is my son. So first hand there are canines here in Texas that appear to possess the coloration, heavier body type and conformation of the once thought extinct in Texas Red Wolf that has since been confirmed as being present on The Texas coast. [/quote

Those aren't wolves. They are coyotes with trace amounts of wolf dna. There are no wolves in Texas

Interesting article on melanistic coyotes and Red Wolf hybridization.

https://deerassociation.com/a-wolf-...medium=email&utm_campaign=01-18-2024

I find it suspect that they attribute melanism to hybridization but then found zero melanistic "red wolves." I'd also like to again point out that the 1st "red wolf" was discovered in the 1700s when scientists knew practically nothing about genetics and simply went off of appearances. Interesting, nonetheless.

This was 66 lbs outta trinity River bottom
Biggest one I’ve ever seen

We have some big coyotes here in Missouri. Coyotes in excess of 75 pounds are killed and verified every year, and i know of one that was 104 pounds fairly recently. I don’t think it’s just coyote in their DNA but I don’t really want to go there.

We had red wolves in North Carolina. I don’t care what “they” say we had them. I think we have some in Missouri, too but i can not confirm.

Red wolves were re-introduced to Arkansas last year or the year before last. That is a verifiable fact. If they are not in Texas yet, they will be before long.

A fawns worst nightmare

I am old enough to offer a little history lesson.

The trouble in NC is we are getting flooded with coyotes! Coyotes are not native to NC! No one really knows when the first one showed up in NC but now they are now everywhere in the State! To add to the problem, our coyotes are usually a bit bigger than the western coyote. The reason given by the NC Wildlife is our coyotes came from the North and migrated down to the South. While they were taking this little vacation heading to the South, the coyote crossbred with dogs and grey wolves. We are told that the Western Coyote worked there way from the West to the North East and then South.
Whatever path they took no longer matters, they are here. They also did something that no other animal has ever done! They opened up night hunting in the State. Twenty years ago you would have been put under the jail if you were caught "hunting" after dark and using a flashlight. Now the coyote problem is so bad you can hunt them 24/7.

Now enters the Red Wolf!!!
North Carolina does have the "Red Wolf." Some clown in federal wildlife had a wet dream and decided Eastern NC was a good spot to "reintroduce" the species. You can imagine the fun that started! We had just opened the State wide coyote hunting and then the Feds tries to bring in an animal that looks like a big coyote. They put them in a Federal Park but forgot to give the "wolves" a state map. It wasn't long before most of the introduced wolves were shot as soon as they crossed the park's boundary line. That didn't go over too well with the Feds. The Federal Wildlife tried to outlaw coyote hunting in a five county area surrounding the Fed. Park to solve their problem. That didn't go over too well with the NC Wildlife and our good-old-boy hunters. (Hold my beer and watch this!)
Lets just say the NC Wildlife was not happy with the Fed. Wildlife (who failed to consult them before starting their little project.) NC Wildlife told the Feds to gather up their little red wolf and get the hell out of the State! After a good bit of back and forth both sides came to an agreement. You can shoot a coyote day or night everywhere EXCEPT in that five county area. In those five counties you can shoot a coyote only during the day. AND the Feds are trying to go back put a orange collar on their wolves!
We even have a picture of both the coyote and red wolf in our state regulations booklet.
All of this proves something every good Southerner already knows. Don't get the feds. involved!
Just to add a few tidbits. The NC Wildlife Federation has also added hogs, armadillos, and nutria to our shoot-on-sight list. Also, while we are talking about the ""red wolf", Half of the "EXPERTS" say the red wolf is a separate species. The other half still says the red wolf is just a crossbred between the coyote and gray wolf.
Meanwhile, NC does not have any cougars. Our state experts told us so! All of the reports over the year are just our poor eyesight.

North Carolina has cougars. I believe they range in every state that shares a part of the Appalachian trail.

Coyotes? Do NOT get me started on that. I lived in Fayetteville, NC when there was a coyote hunting ban on Fort Bragg, and the city hired teams to deal with them. I saw them darting through and between houses every day when i got off work. I lived in the subdivision over there on Cameron Woods lane. I am not gonna speak on coyote control in my neighborhood, just know they were controlled.

Ah, Fayetteville, my birth place! Bragg is Federal property so you know they have to be different. Now I live about 15-20 miles from the Appalachian Trail. I've only seen one cougars since we built up here but I've taken 26 coyotes out of my bathroom window! I've seen some big coyotes but no red wolves.
The only thing I have not seen here is a bigfoot and a unicorn. (I'm still holding out hope for a unicorn.)

I shot my first whitetail on Fort Bragg. I used to hang out up at the outdoor rec center. The biologists told me they did the ban so a university could conduct a study on the coyotes out there. It was a pure bs study, they determined that the coyotes don’t affect deer populations for starters. Which is funny because the biologists told me they closed the areas early based on what they knew the coyotes were taking. They took real good care of the deer herd on post and were especially strict on doe harvest.

There actually *was* a decline in the deer herd, I read the study and the way they worded it pretty much said it was well within the normal range of the way it fluctuates. But there was no EHD kills or any of that, and hunter harvest was strictly limited especially on does. It was purely the coyotes.

It’s not enough that every other study on the survival rate of fawns has shown that most fawns deaths were killed and eaten by predators, and of that mostly coyotes and feral dogs. Coyotes and feral dogs literally kill more fawns than disease, fire, flood, or any other single phenomenon. And all other predators combined, do not surpass what coyotes and feral dogs do. I will never get over it, it is evil what they did with that study and they should be held liable for making false official statements. Or something, they should be held liable somehow because they lie lie lie lied their tails off. The one biologist, that told me about all this, went red in the face the first time I ever asked about the coyote hunting. He was not happy to deal with them, he knew they lied.