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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630105
06/28/22 05:12 AM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
SherpaPhil
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690 |
I completely understand why you have strong feelings on the topic. Had it been necessary, I'm sure my wife and I would have done the same thing. I wasn't trying to be a d!ck with my post, but I can see how it came across that way. IVF is absolutely different, no argument.
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630109
06/28/22 05:29 AM
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 23,221
Bee'z
The Beedazzler
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The Beedazzler
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 23,221 |
We are clear and all good SIr. Now can Tom answer that same question though? I have 4 more and rather we decide to or not I sit at the table to decide my fate with the man. We were blessed and god provided. He can judge us however he deems fit.
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630110
06/28/22 05:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924
10 Gauge
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924 |
IVF- The egg must attach to the uterus to become a viable pregnancy. Until that happens, a woman is not “pregnant” therefore can’t technically have an “abortion”.
It’s not alive yet, you can’t make a human in a Petri dish. It takes a womb.
And if you understood the morning after pill, they call it the morning after pill because you have to take it the morning after. Could work for up to 5 days afterwards. Once you have a viable pregnancy it goes kaput.
Last edited by Bryan C. Heimann; 06/28/22 05:54 AM.
1 Thessalonians 4:11-14
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630111
06/28/22 05:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924
10 Gauge
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924 |
Good grief google something before you spray a bunch of nonsense on the forum. It’s 2022
1 Thessalonians 4:11-14
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: tenyearsgone]
#8630119
06/28/22 09:10 AM
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 446
FayetteCo
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 446 |
Overall, it’s a great change for abortion but I’m concerned about Texas’s trigger law if what I read is correct.
It bans abortions from conception with no exemptions for severe deformities or rape. Even if I wasn’t a parent, I would have a difficult time forcing a rape victim to have her rapist’s baby instead of being afforded a day after pill (I could be wrong in assuming they consider the DAP as abortion) or forcing a person with deformities that will cause agony their whole life to suffer. Does it have to be such a binary set of options?
Yes, I know other states won’t be as strict, but I question the thought process of our leaders. So the rapist will not be executed for the rape but the baby gets killed instead. How is rape the baby's fault? There is no reason to ever kill an unborn baby.
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630129
06/28/22 10:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,310
BradyBuck
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,310 |
This entire pro abortion vs pro life argument comes down to a simple difference in perspective.
It's the belief that the unborn are living human being with basic rights and the right to live supersedes the mother's right to her body.
The unborn child is using the mother's body to live. The argument has even been made that forcing a pregnant women to carry her unborn child is the same as forcing a parent to give their kid an organ or blood transfusion.
Even in cases of rape which are so extremely rare it does not change the fact the unborn child is a living human being and should not be killed just because it was the product of a despicable act. If it was my daughter, as tough as it would be I would suggest adoption. However, I also don't know where I stand on the morning after pill.
I also am for capital punishment, that is not the same as abortion. The unborn child is an innocent baby, it's not even close to the same thing.
The issues that are grey and foggy to me are when it comes to the morning after pill and even in vetro fertilization. If you say life begins at conception with zero exceptions what do you about these issues? They are not currently listed as "abortions" so I hope they remain an option. I also hope that any lifesaving intervention for the mother remains an option as well as cases where the unborn child isn't going to live anyway and it's safer and more humane to end the pregnancy earlier rather than later.
I am currently struggling with this and what to believe about some of those situations I listed above.. A fetus develops a brain around 6-8 weeks and doesn't form any real consciousness until several weeks after that, possibly not until 20 weeks.
Last edited by BradyBuck; 06/28/22 10:58 AM.
HRCH Washita's Kimber Locked N Loaded GRHRCH Firefly's Rally The Troops MH
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630188
06/28/22 12:31 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,393
Hudbone
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 14,393 |
IVF recently gave us Grace -
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630197
06/28/22 12:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
SherpaPhil
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690 |
There are a lot of slippery slopes here, especially when people start spewing absolutes and refuse to compromise. If you believe that life begins at conception, and that an embryo has the full rights of a person, there is no way to square that with IVF or the morning after pill. Those beliefs are not compatible.
Likewise, if you believe that an embryo is a person with all of the rights that accompany that, there can be no exceptions for the health of the mother. In no other circumstances does the law allow someone to kill an innocent person to save their own life.
This country has a lot of tough decisions to make.
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: Hudbone]
#8630199
06/28/22 12:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
SherpaPhil
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690 |
IVF recently gave us Grace - Cute kid. What a wonderful pic.
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630228
06/28/22 01:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 70
TheCswift
Outdoorsman
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Outdoorsman
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 70 |
Obviously, everyone will have their own personal beliefs pertaining to this. But I can't stand the political spin. Roe has been a weak legal precedent for 50 years. There have been democrat supermajorities in that time but rather than try to amend the constitution they just used this ruling as a way to make every American despite their beliefs pay for abortions as well as a political stance to run for office. Personally, it is sickening to me that they literally run for office on dead babies, but that is beside the point of this discussion.
This overturn will bring this out of the federal level and put it back on the states to decide how they will handle it which is where it should have been in the first place.
I am not going to say that I understand all of the intricacies about the initial court decision on Roe, but I do understand that the more government entities that have their hands on it the more it ultimately costs each of us and the less say any of us has.
Also, all of the halfhearted attempts at a rebuttal, stating that rape, or lack of formula, or lack of money, or men should be sterilized until ready for children talk is all just a weak-minded grasp of a disillusioned sociopath that should remain abstinent or at the very least use protection before opening their mouth about any of this.
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: Hudbone]
#8630325
06/28/22 03:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924
10 Gauge
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924 |
IVF recently gave us Grace - Precious <3
1 Thessalonians 4:11-14
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: BradyBuck]
#8630335
06/28/22 03:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,778
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,778 |
This entire pro abortion vs pro life argument comes down to a simple difference in perspective.
It's the belief that the unborn are living human being with basic rights and the right to live supersedes the mother's right to her body.
The unborn child is using the mother's body to live. The argument has even been made that forcing a pregnant women to carry her unborn child is the same as forcing a parent to give their kid an organ or blood transfusion.
Even in cases of rape which are so extremely rare it does not change the fact the unborn child is a living human being and should not be killed just because it was the product of a despicable act. If it was my daughter, as tough as it would be I would suggest adoption. However, I also don't know where I stand on the morning after pill.
I also am for capital punishment, that is not the same as abortion. The unborn child is an innocent baby, it's not even close to the same thing.
The issues that are grey and foggy to me are when it comes to the morning after pill and even in vetro fertilization. If you say life begins at conception with zero exceptions what do you about these issues? They are not currently listed as "abortions" so I hope they remain an option. I also hope that any lifesaving intervention for the mother remains an option as well as cases where the unborn child isn't going to live anyway and it's safer and more humane to end the pregnancy earlier rather than later.
I am currently struggling with this and what to believe about some of those situations I listed above.. A fetus develops a brain around 6-8 weeks and doesn't form any real consciousness until several weeks after that, possibly not until 20 weeks.
A baby cant survive outside the womb either with out a mother figure either. The truth of the matter is very few if any states will go absolutism on Abortions. In fact a study I read said it would basically decrease availability from 25miles to 65 miles. If Texas went absolutism you can drive to NM where you can abort up to time of full term of delivery
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630339
06/28/22 03:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924
10 Gauge
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924 |
Let me point this out for some of you one more time. Until the fertilized ovum attaches to the uterus, a woman is not pregnant. And a fertilized ovum does not live and grow without this. You can’t argue the fertilized embryo is alive outside of the body.
Once the fertilized ovum implants, a woman goes through hormonal and other changes that prevent another fertilized ovum from attaching.
Life begins when the fertilized ovum implants the uterus. And the morning after pill can’t reverse it.
Last edited by Bryan C. Heimann; 06/28/22 03:19 PM.
1 Thessalonians 4:11-14
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630345
06/28/22 03:29 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
SherpaPhil
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690 |
Texas's trigger law bans abortions from the moment of fertilization, not implantation.
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630377
06/28/22 04:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261
Sniper.270
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261 |
Gray areas. Foggy areas. Perspective. Own personal beliefs. When does life begin?
What do all these concepts have in common? The lack of ONE irrefutable truth. They all rely on the thinking, beliefs, and desires of man. To know the answers to all these “issues” one first has to define truth. Absolute truth. What is absolute truth? It is the absolute standard by which all things should be measured. This truth exists outside of you, me, or us. It remains the truth regardless of our perspectives, laws, or beliefs. There is no such thing as your truth or my truth. There is simply God’s truth.
For example, The law of gravity is God’s truth. He created it. Those who believe in the concept of “your truth” go to the top of the Empire State Building. Explain how in your prospective and belief that God’s truth of gravity does not work for you. That you do not believe in God’s law of gravity. Then jump off the building. You will discover, for a few quick seconds, that God’s truth is the standard by which all things are measured in relation to the law of gravity.
Ever been in a plane? Does a plane take advantage of our beliefs or perspectives to prove God’s laws of aerodynamics is not an absolute truth? No. What man does changes nothing in God’s truth.
We could do this over and over to cover ever situation man faces.
America does not face lots of tough decisions. Life is not difficult to figure out. Follow God’s word and you have discovered the “secret” to life. Life becomes difficult when we follow man’s perspective, ideas, and beliefs.
Now before we get to the statements about the Bible and God’s word being influenced by humans and humans wrote and decided what is in the Bible and all that, I will just say, if that is your “belief” then you have not studied and understand the word of God well enough. It simply is not true.
Proverbs 2
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8630379
06/28/22 04:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,310
BradyBuck
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,310 |
Gray areas. Foggy areas. Perspective. Own personal beliefs. When does life begin?
What do all these concepts have in common? The lack of ONE irrefutable truth. They all rely on the thinking, beliefs, and desires of man. To know the answers to all these “issues” one first has to define truth. Absolute truth. What is absolute truth? It is the absolute standard by which all things should be measured. This truth exists outside of you, me, or us. It remains the truth regardless of our perspectives, laws, or beliefs. There is no such thing as your truth or my truth. There is simply God’s truth.
For example, The law of gravity is God’s truth. He created it. Those who believe in the concept of “your truth” go to the top of the Empire State Building. Explain how in your prospective and belief that God’s truth of gravity does not work for you. That you do not believe in God’s law of gravity. Then jump off the building. You will discover, for a few quick seconds, that God’s truth is the standard by which all things are measured in relation to the law of gravity.
Ever been in a plane? Does a plane take advantage of our beliefs or perspectives to prove God’s laws of aerodynamics is not an absolute truth? No. What man does changes nothing in God’s truth.
We could do this over and over to cover ever situation man faces.
America does not face lots of tough decisions. Life is not difficult to figure out. Follow God’s word and you have discovered the “secret” to life. Life becomes difficult when we follow man’s perspective, ideas, and beliefs.
Now before we get to the statements about the Bible and God’s word being influenced by humans and humans wrote and decided what is in the Bible and all that, I will just say, if that is your “belief” then you have not studied and understand the word of God well enough. It simply is not true. Sorry but there are a lot of gray areas in the Bible. We aren't given a black and white answer for every single issue that we will encounter. The Bible doesn't give us a black and white answer in whether or not an embryo that was fertilized outside the body for in vitro is in fact a human being with a soul.
HRCH Washita's Kimber Locked N Loaded GRHRCH Firefly's Rally The Troops MH
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630383
06/28/22 04:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,624
reeltexan
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,624 |
Once the seed is planted, unless something prevents development, a human baby is the result. Creation at it's most fundamental stage, given by a Creator.
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." Ronald Reagan
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630384
06/28/22 04:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261
Sniper.270
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261 |
The Bible states otherwise. The Bible covers every single “issue” man faces. To accept this you have to put man in his proper place. God in his proper place. Then all answers are there. If one desires to know the absolute truth.
Your example is absolutely covered in the Bible. Only man’s needs and desires confuses it. Mans “thoughts” create the gray areas. There are no “gray” areas in God’s word. If there were, God would not be God. He could not be sovereign and omnipotent. Man needs gray areas to justify mans desires.
Proverbs 2
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: Sniper.270]
#8630432
06/28/22 05:49 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,310
BradyBuck
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,310 |
The Bible states otherwise. The Bible covers every single “issue” man faces. To accept this you have to put man in his proper place. God in his proper place. Then all answers are there. If one desires to know the absolute truth.
Your example is absolutely covered in the Bible. Only man’s needs and desires confuses it. Mans “thoughts” create the gray areas. There are no “gray” areas in God’s word. If there were, God would not be God. He could not be sovereign and omnipotent. Man needs gray areas to justify mans desires. Sorry but you are wrong. You haven't provided any scripture to prove otherwise. There are areas in God's word that can be left up to each individual as to what is right and wrong. It even discusses this in scripture. There is nothing in God's word that addresses if an embryo that was fertilized outside the body then frozen is human and has a soul. That's just one of many examples. We have to take God's word and look at the overall big picture. To say that the Bible covers every single issue in a black white context is just not true.
HRCH Washita's Kimber Locked N Loaded GRHRCH Firefly's Rally The Troops MH
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: BradyBuck]
#8630452
06/28/22 06:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 69,506
NORML as can be
^^Cut the Cord^^
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^^Cut the Cord^^
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 69,506 |
The Bible states otherwise. The Bible covers every single “issue” man faces. To accept this you have to put man in his proper place. God in his proper place. Then all answers are there. If one desires to know the absolute truth.
Your example is absolutely covered in the Bible. Only man’s needs and desires confuses it. Mans “thoughts” create the gray areas. There are no “gray” areas in God’s word. If there were, God would not be God. He could not be sovereign and omnipotent. Man needs gray areas to justify mans desires. Sorry but you are wrong. You haven't provided any scripture to prove otherwise. There are areas in God's word that can be left up to each individual as to what is right and wrong. It even discusses this in scripture. There is nothing in God's word that addresses if an embryo that was fertilized outside the body then frozen is human and has a soul. That's just one of many examples. We have to take God's word and look at the overall big picture. To say that the Bible covers every single issue in a black white context is just not true. Also something in that book about Thou shalt not kill, but it's okay if they do it.......
(R-TX) .-- " TCNN CURL CRLB VFF VRNO AYR SNDL CGC TLRY MSOS "
_=====___=________==-
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630453
06/28/22 06:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924
10 Gauge
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924 |
Grey? You can’t have an abortion if you’re not pregnant. That’s pretty simple to me.
If mom already has a viable pregnancy the rest of the eggs can’t implant. That’s how it works.
If it makes you happy give a pregnant mom the rest of the eggs and let nature take its course. Then what will you call it?
Last edited by Bryan C. Heimann; 06/28/22 06:25 PM.
1 Thessalonians 4:11-14
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630460
06/28/22 06:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924
10 Gauge
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,924 |
If I recall correctly it’s not uncommon to give mom more than one fertilized egg, it’s not likely for them all to implant even given the same chance
1 Thessalonians 4:11-14
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: NORML as can be]
#8630475
06/28/22 06:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,310
BradyBuck
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,310 |
The Bible states otherwise. The Bible covers every single “issue” man faces. To accept this you have to put man in his proper place. God in his proper place. Then all answers are there. If one desires to know the absolute truth.
Your example is absolutely covered in the Bible. Only man’s needs and desires confuses it. Mans “thoughts” create the gray areas. There are no “gray” areas in God’s word. If there were, God would not be God. He could not be sovereign and omnipotent. Man needs gray areas to justify mans desires. Sorry but you are wrong. You haven't provided any scripture to prove otherwise. There are areas in God's word that can be left up to each individual as to what is right and wrong. It even discusses this in scripture. There is nothing in God's word that addresses if an embryo that was fertilized outside the body then frozen is human and has a soul. That's just one of many examples. We have to take God's word and look at the overall big picture. To say that the Bible covers every single issue in a black white context is just not true. Also something in that book about Thou shalt not kill, but it's okay if they do it....... First off it's "thou shalt not murder" There is a big difference in killing and murder. Ending the life of an unborn child is Murder. When it comes to ending the life of an innocent child in the womb I do believe it's black and white. It's murder. I'm not talking about that when I said "grey areas". A grey area to me would be fertilizing an egg outside the womb and freezing it before in develops to use for in vitro. That is something I am still not sure about.
HRCH Washita's Kimber Locked N Loaded GRHRCH Firefly's Rally The Troops MH
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: 10 Gauge]
#8630484
06/28/22 07:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,778
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,778 |
If I recall correctly it’s not uncommon to give mom more than one fertilized egg, it’s not likely for them all to implant even given the same chance It depends on the method, and how many eggs took out side, and once inside the success rates are still very low of them taking
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Re: Good job Supremes!
[Re: P_102]
#8630583
06/28/22 10:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 25,508
Creekrunner
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 25,508 |
Run on Morning After pillsApparently, a whole lotta people drink a ton before sex. (I vaguely remember being able to do that.)
...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
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