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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8608944 05/31/22 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Originally Posted by patriot07
Got me to thinking - if it ever came time that I got a text from my wife that an active shooter was at her or one of my kid's schools, I'm not gonna sit outside and leave them at risk. What is the best AR optic for CQB? ACOG, EOTech, something else?

I currently have a Bushnell 3-9x40 on my AR and it's fine for plinking steel, but not much good for CQB type stuff.

Also what is the most affordable body armor that's decent?

TIA


Slow down, cowboy. Your post indicates that you have no experience with defensive rifle work or the gear. You haven't even considered what you would need for home defense. Statistically speaking, about as many people are killed by lightning (and a lot more injured) than killed or injured in school shootings. After all, you are more likely to need to defend your family in a home defense situation than to go save your child at school as there are about 1 million home invasions each year where the occupants are at home. With that said, the vast majority of shootings are over quickly, either because they were short duration or the shooter was stopped by intended victims or the cops. So what you are talking about preparing for is the black unicorn of situations.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt
https://www.inquirer.com/news/texas-school-mass-shootings-nationwide-20220525.html
https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-victims

I don't know what it is that people worry more about the exceptionally rate and grand events than the day to day dangers. None of are are nearly as likely to be involved in a mass shooting event (school, mall, workplace, etc.) as we are to be involved in getting murdered or intentionally injured by a family member/friend/acquaintance. Even if somebody trying to harm you doesn't know you, chances are infinitely in favor of violence against you being a random assault, mugging, rape, etc. than it is that you are in a mass shooting event.

Honestly, how concerned are you about your kids and lightning as that is and equal or greater threat than the possibility of being injured or killed in a school shooting.

Originally Posted by Ranch Dawg
But,,,, If you ain’t the popo, your an active shooter. Prolly gonna get lit up. I don’t think we will ever see the police wait around again.


Ah, the "never again" attitude. The thing about 'never again' is that it does keep happening. After Columbine, we weren't supposed to be seeing it again. Yet it happened TWICE this year alone, at King Soupers in Colorado and at Uvalde and it happened previously at Parkland. In both cases, the police got their noses blooded early one and said, "Holy crap, I could get shot doing my job. Best to surround and contain and wait it out."

Columbine was the case example for rewriting the book on active shooters. Prior to Columbine, the dogma was 'surround and contain.'

And, RD is right. You run to a school with your gear, you might get lit up. Hell, they cuffed, arrested, and tazed parents in Uvalde who wanted to act. Apparently, they were interfering with the cops NOT doing their job.

Also willing to discuss any rifle and/or optic that can defend against lightning strikes.

Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Brother in-law] #8608949 05/31/22 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Brother in-law
Sounds like a suicide mission but

At minimum Aimpoint PRO

Aimpoint t2 or h2

MRO HD

If I'm standing outside and hearing gunshots and my kid is in there, why would I continue to stand outside? Those Uvalde parents will never get over that.

Is it likely? Not at all. Is it possible? Sure.

I don't really use my AR for much plinking at distance anyway, so the 3-9x40 could go in favor of a more AR-appropriate optic. My only issue is that my gun is a Ruger MPR, which isn't the most compact of guns anyway....

Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8608972 05/31/22 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by patriot07
Originally Posted by Sewer rat
Horrible idea. Go running towards a school with a rifle and armor during a active shooter situation and you will be dropped before you make it to the door. if heaven forbid there is another school shooting I can almost guarantee you that the response will be a lot more aggressive and the same mistakes won’t be repeated. If you still want to be John McClane go for it but have your will and stuff in order.

I'm not willing to bet my wife and kids lives that this is correct. A bunch of parents with dead kids made this gamble in Uvalde and are having funerals this week.

No husband or father would think once about it. It's instinctive to do what you're talking about.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8609040 05/31/22 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by patriot07
Originally Posted by Sewer rat
Horrible idea. Go running towards a school with a rifle and armor during a active shooter situation and you will be dropped before you make it to the door. if heaven forbid there is another school shooting I can almost guarantee you that the response will be a lot more aggressive and the same mistakes won’t be repeated. If you still want to be John McClane go for it but have your will and stuff in order.

I'm not willing to bet my wife and kids lives that this is correct. A bunch of parents with dead kids made this gamble in Uvalde and are having funerals this week.

No husband or father would think once about it. It's instinctive to do what you're talking about.


Well, apparently a bunch did think twice about it. That is why they were standing outside the school as the kids and teachers were getting killed.


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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8609060 05/31/22 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by patriot07
Originally Posted by Sewer rat
Horrible idea. Go running towards a school with a rifle and armor during a active shooter situation and you will be dropped before you make it to the door. if heaven forbid there is another school shooting I can almost guarantee you that the response will be a lot more aggressive and the same mistakes won’t be repeated. If you still want to be John McClane go for it but have your will and stuff in order.

I'm not willing to bet my wife and kids lives that this is correct. A bunch of parents with dead kids made this gamble in Uvalde and are having funerals this week.

No husband or father would think once about it. It's instinctive to do what you're talking about.


Well, apparently a bunch did think twice about it. That is why they were standing outside the school as the kids and teachers were getting killed.

How many husbands or fathers went, and had to be held back? From the media reports that you and I read, the police arrived before any parents. Of those, you nor I know how many were husbands or fathers, how many tried to enter and were ordered back, restrained, or otherwise prevented from entering. In the absence of Police, the OP is asking for the best way to do what his instincts tell him, you lecture and call him a Cowboy. I will edit my statement from "No husband or father", to "No normal husband or father". Paternal instincts are just that, instincts. I am staying in my lane and talking about what I know, paternal instincts.

Last edited by onlysmith&wesson; 05/31/22 01:11 PM.

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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8609100 05/31/22 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by patriot07
Originally Posted by Sewer rat
Horrible idea. Go running towards a school with a rifle and armor during a active shooter situation and you will be dropped before you make it to the door. if heaven forbid there is another school shooting I can almost guarantee you that the response will be a lot more aggressive and the same mistakes won’t be repeated. If you still want to be John McClane go for it but have your will and stuff in order.

I'm not willing to bet my wife and kids lives that this is correct. A bunch of parents with dead kids made this gamble in Uvalde and are having funerals this week.

No husband or father would think once about it. It's instinctive to do what you're talking about.


Well, apparently a bunch did think twice about it. That is why they were standing outside the school as the kids and teachers were getting killed.

So what would they have done if a parent had tried to go in even being ordered not to? Is a policeman going to shoot a parent trying to go protect their kid? If they're that gung-ho, why wouldn't they just shoot the freaking gunman?

The idea that anyone could blame a parent for going to protect their kid is insane, especially if the people who are paid to do that and who literally volunteered and signed up to do it are sitting with thumbs up their butts. Same if my wife was in there. I've loved her since I was 6 years old - you think I'm going to stand by while some crazy person shoots at her? There is zero chance I'm going to watch police stand there while my best friend is inside.

Last edited by patriot07; 05/31/22 02:00 PM.
Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8609117 05/31/22 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by patriot07
There is zero chance I'm going to watch police stand there while my best friend is inside.


100%. Stand between me and my child, or any child, and that badge is meaningless.

What happened in Uvalde is an absolute travesty. The Agent that ended it is how 99% of Texans would react, but in this instance, were prevented.

IF the reports are accurate, I want to see everyone involved run out of law enforcement. No exceptions.


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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Inge0071] #8609124 05/31/22 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Inge0071
IF the reports are accurate, I want to see everyone involved run out of law enforcement. No exceptions.
Absolutely

I don't want anyone's life ruined, but you have no business being in law enforcement if what's being reported is true and you had anything to do with this.

Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8609143 05/31/22 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by patriot07
Originally Posted by Inge0071
IF the reports are accurate, I want to see everyone involved run out of law enforcement. No exceptions.
Absolutely

I don't want anyone's life ruined, but you have no business being in law enforcement if what's being reported is true and you had anything to do with this.

Let's start with whoever let him in. Who opened the door, and why?


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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Inge0071] #8609186 05/31/22 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by patriot07
Originally Posted by Inge0071
IF the reports are accurate, I want to see everyone involved run out of law enforcement. No exceptions.
Absolutely

I don't want anyone's life ruined, but you have no business being in law enforcement if what's being reported is true and you had anything to do with this.

Let's start with whoever let him in. Who opened the door, and why?


The door was propped open with a rock by a teacher. I can remember teachers doing this back when I was in school, LOL. In fact, there used to be bricks, rocks, and door stops by all the entries and exits. Even as recently as a few years ago, there were door stops to hold the doors open at my kids' school. These were used from time to time such as with recess or when there would be high traffic. It was a convenience act, not a safe or proper act, but a convenience act.

Originally Posted by Inge0071
What happened in Uvalde is an absolute travesty. The Agent that ended it is how 99% of Texans would react....


Based on all the other mass shootings in Texas and the amount of non-gunowners in Texas, that is NOT how 99% of Texans would react. That is just a fact, plain and simple. People may talk a big game, but when it comes to actual action, most can't (due to location, ability, or tools) or won't act.


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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8609253 05/31/22 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Based on all the other mass shootings in Texas and the amount of non-gunowners in Texas, that is NOT how 99% of Texans would react. That is just a fact, plain and simple. People may talk a big game, but when it comes to actual action, most can't (due to location, ability, or tools) or won't act.


These shooters end up dead. Usually it happens quickly. The Courthouse shooter in Dallas a few years ago got dropped in less than 30 seconds. The most recent church shooter took one in the eye in 4 seconds. The church incident before that ended with locals chasing him down the highway and shooting him (again) in a field.

So I see your point re some adults being unwilling and/or unprepared. That percentage may be more than 1%. But lets not quibble on the math.


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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8609731 06/01/22 03:08 AM
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Back to the original question, a good red dot seems to be the consensus. One on a bull pup like AUG or Tavor would be ideal for close work, you could go pistol AR.



Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: scottfromdallas] #8609746 06/01/22 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Back to the original question, a good red dot seems to be the consensus. One on a bull pup like AUG or Tavor would be ideal for close work, you could go pistol AR.

I wish I had a pistol AR. My 18" Ruger MPR is less than ideal.

I've had an EOTech in the past and I liked the concept, but the dot was much, much too large. It was easy to see anything and everything happening in front of you though. I'd like something else like that with a smaller dot. Or at least a dot that can change size if you wanted.

Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Inge0071] #8609755 06/01/22 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Based on all the other mass shootings in Texas and the amount of non-gunowners in Texas, that is NOT how 99% of Texans would react. That is just a fact, plain and simple. People may talk a big game, but when it comes to actual action, most can't (due to location, ability, or tools) or won't act.


These shooters end up dead. Usually it happens quickly. The Courthouse shooter in Dallas a few years ago got dropped in less than 30 seconds. The most recent church shooter took one in the eye in 4 seconds. The church incident before that ended with locals chasing him down the highway and shooting him (again) in a field.

So I see your point re some adults being unwilling and/or unprepared. That percentage may be more than 1%. But lets not quibble on the math.


Uvalde lasted for 77 minutes with shooting going on for the better part of an hour. Sutherland Springs lasted long enough for a town resident to fetch his rifle from the safe and load a magazine as he headed to the church where he engaged the shooter AFTER the shooter was leaving the church and the carnage was over. Tyler lasted several minutes. Columbine lasted a bit under 20 minutes. Both mass shootings in Houston in 2016 last many minutes. The Dallas courthouse shooter may have been dropped quickly but then again in 2016 5 officers were killed, 12 wounded, along with 2 civilians by a prolonged mass shooting over the course of hours. That guy finally had to be killed with a bomb. The El Paso Walmart shooting lasted 24 minutes. Santa Fe high school shooting last 30 minutes. The UT Tower shooting lasted nearly 90 minutes.

However, the duration isn't always the critical part as much as the number of people shot or killed which can happen very quickly, as with the Giffords shooting in Arizona. Parkland was over in less than 4 minutes with 17 killed and 17 injured. Las Vegas Mandalay Bay lasted only 10 brief minutes, but 61 people were killed and 411 injured by gunfire.

Most do end up dead, but over 60% fight it out according to the FBI. It is good that most are dead, but that really isn't much of a win. For many or most, it is nothing but a suicide event from the start.


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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8609832 06/01/22 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by patriot07
Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Back to the original question, a good red dot seems to be the consensus. One on a bull pup like AUG or Tavor would be ideal for close work, you could go pistol AR.

I wish I had a pistol AR. My 18" Ruger MPR is less than ideal.

I've had an EOTech in the past and I liked the concept, but the dot was much, much too large. It was easy to see anything and everything happening in front of you though. I'd like something else like that with a smaller dot. Or at least a dot that can change size if you wanted.



I have a 2 MOA dot on a 9mm pistol AR with an 8” barrel. I keep it handy in the house. 2 MOA is easy to pick up but still capable of a longer shot. The sights with a 1 MOA dot and 65 MOA ring are also very good for close and far.



Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: scottfromdallas] #8609847 06/01/22 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Originally Posted by patriot07
Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Back to the original question, a good red dot seems to be the consensus. One on a bull pup like AUG or Tavor would be ideal for close work, you could go pistol AR.

I wish I had a pistol AR. My 18" Ruger MPR is less than ideal.

I've had an EOTech in the past and I liked the concept, but the dot was much, much too large. It was easy to see anything and everything happening in front of you though. I'd like something else like that with a smaller dot. Or at least a dot that can change size if you wanted.



I have a 2 MOA dot on a 9mm pistol AR with an 8” barrel. I keep it handy in the house. 2 MOA is easy to pick up but still capable of a longer shot. The sights with a 1 MOA dot and 65 MOA ring are also very good for close and far.

I love that idea - what scopes have the dot and ring?

Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8609856 06/01/22 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by patriot07
wish I had a pistol AR.

I've had an EOTech in the past and I liked the concept, but the dot was much, much too large. It was easy to see anything and everything happening in front of you though.


What are the velocities like on an AR pistol? Are they reliable?

On the dot, try adjusting the brightness. I turn mine down for precise shots and up when speed matters.

It's been said before, but the Sig Romeo 5 is hard to beat. That Eotech 1x6 is also EXCELLENT. On a 5.56, it will clear a room and still ding steel well beyond 600.


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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8609878 06/01/22 12:50 PM
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Holosun and Eotech have the Dot and Ring.

There are probably others.



Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: Inge0071] #8609883 06/01/22 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by patriot07
wish I had a pistol AR.

I've had an EOTech in the past and I liked the concept, but the dot was much, much too large. It was easy to see anything and everything happening in front of you though.


What are the velocities like on an AR pistol? Are they reliable?

On the dot, try adjusting the brightness. I turn mine down for precise shots and up when speed matters.

It's been said before, but the Sig Romeo 5 is hard to beat. That Eotech 1x6 is also EXCELLENT. On a 5.56, it will clear a room and still ding steel well beyond 600.

My Sig Romeo works with the irons, mounts high. You want this feature IMO, if you're using it in the way you're suggesting. In a room, under stress you likely won't be looking through whatever you choose. I know it'd be hard for me. [Linked Image]
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Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: scottfromdallas] #8609885 06/01/22 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Holosun and Eotech have the Dot and Ring.

There are probably others.


The Sig Romeo 5 XDR has the EOTechish dot and ring as well. You can also turn that feature off and just use the dot.

My work rifle has a service grade EOTech. They are simply one of the best sights out there for CQB and are virtually indestructible.

Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8610256 06/01/22 08:32 PM
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I was issued a Aimpoint Comp M4 many years ago and it has been flawless. Banged around, dropped, stored in extreme heat and cold. My previous Aimpoints have been as well.

Don't trust your lift to a Made in China red dot regardless of what name is painted on the side of it. I leave mine turned on 24/7 and swap out a lithium battery ever year although it will run for several years running 24/7. I have an easier time picking up the dot with the full size optic , but the smaller footprint optics seem to be popular these days.

A QR mount is a good idea as well if the scope is disabled somehow it can be removed quickly. I know they co-witness but it is more difficult to see the irons. Your irons should already be in the up (deployed mode) or fixed.

Last edited by glocker17; 06/01/22 08:34 PM.
Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8610952 06/02/22 06:32 PM
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The answer is Aimpoint. Always on so it's ready to roll. Eotech is great until you run out of batteries or have an astigmatism and find yourself using it without corrective lenses.

Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: jeepercreeper] #8611117 06/02/22 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jeepercreeper
The answer is Aimpoint. Always on so it's ready to roll. Eotech is great until you run out of batteries or have an astigmatism and find yourself using it without corrective lenses.


Aimpoint would have the same issues. They run on batteries and people with astigmatisms see a grape cluster instead of a red dot. I don't recall OP saying anything about astigmatism. A 1X prism would be better if you are worried about the above.



Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: patriot07] #8614141 06/07/22 01:04 AM
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How do y’all feel about a 1x??? with a red dot on top or 45ed?

Re: Best AR optic for room-clearing [Re: scottfromdallas] #8621145 06/15/22 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
For pure CQB, a red dot or holosight with “shake awake “ technology is king. Shake awake saves your battery and ensures it’s on without thinking about it when you need it.

What’s the difference between the Sig and the Holosun red dot?



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