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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: jeepercreeper]
#8588811
05/01/22 01:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
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HicksHunter
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Ah, I must have skipped over that. My larger point still stands that these kinds of things don't just happen without something pulling the trigger. It's still negligence on the officer's part to let something in the holster that would pull the trigger. You’re wrong here and skipped over an important detail. If it was negligence on end user’s part there wouldnt be lawsuits coming in. I’m sure she didn’t have a coat string or anything get caught in the holster and trigger. It happens. But sure, blame the gun. So if my old Remington X Mark trigger goes off and does harm, I have to blame myself and cant blame the gun? Sorry, just trying to understand when its ok to blame a faulty product with history/pattern of problems vs my coat string. Let's be clear- there are different failure modes. Some guns can go off accidentally without normal inputs from the shooter. The Remington triggers you mention are in this group, and so are things like a 1911 without a firing pin block doubling or tripling after a dangerous trigger job. Most striker guns, p320 included, are not susceptible to this kind of failure because of redundant safeties like a firing pin block. The sear might fail, but the firing pin block will keep it from going off until the trigger is pulled. The P320 does not have a documented history of the guns firing while sitting in a holster. They did have an issue of firing when dropped at a very specific angle onto a hard surface (and was long ago remedied for new production pistols), but this is unrelated to the incident in question.
Last edited by HicksHunter; 05/01/22 01:31 PM.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#8588906
05/01/22 03:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,239
blkt2
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I believe in the case of the lady cop she is on tape walking along and the gun discharges in her holster with nothing touching it. That is the downside of having a pre-cocked striker vs one that only has energy put into the striker spring as the trigger gets pulled like a Glock does.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: HicksHunter]
#8588948
05/01/22 04:38 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,716
BigPig
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You’re wrong here and skipped over an important detail. If it was negligence on end user’s part there wouldnt be lawsuits coming in.
I’m sure she didn’t have a coat string or anything get caught in the holster and trigger. It happens. But sure, blame the gun. So if my old Remington X Mark trigger goes off and does harm, I have to blame myself and cant blame the gun? Sorry, just trying to understand when its ok to blame a faulty product with history/pattern of problems vs my coat string. Let's be clear- there are different failure modes. Some guns can go off accidentally without normal inputs from the shooter. The Remington triggers you mention are in this group, and so are things like a 1911 without a firing pin block doubling or tripling after a dangerous trigger job. Most striker guns, p320 included, are not susceptible to this kind of failure because of redundant safeties like a firing pin block. The sear might fail, but the firing pin block will keep it from going off until the trigger is pulled. The P320 does not have a documented history of the guns firing while sitting in a holster. They did have an issue of firing when dropped at a very specific angle onto a hard surface (and was long ago remedied for new production pistols), but this is unrelated to the incident in question. Comprehension and common sense is hard for some people
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: HicksHunter]
#8588954
05/01/22 04:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,221
Grizz
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Let's be clear- there are different failure modes. Some guns can go off accidentally without normal inputs from the shooter. The Remington triggers you mention are in this group, and so are things like a 1911 without a firing pin block doubling or tripling after a dangerous trigger job. Most striker guns, p320 included, are not susceptible to this kind of failure because of redundant safeties like a firing pin block. The sear might fail, but the firing pin block will keep it from going off until the trigger is pulled.
The P320 does not have a documented history of the guns firing while sitting in a holster. They did have an issue of firing when dropped at a very specific angle onto a hard surface (and was long ago remedied for new production pistols), but this is unrelated to the incident in question.
It does now. Now they just need to figure out why it went off in the holster. If it was from something in the holster causing the trigger to be pulled, I hope they figure that out quickly because SIg shouldn't have to pay a penny or waste a minute of their time if that's the case.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#8588983
05/01/22 06:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,275
jeepercreeper
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Cant recall how many times in my life Ive heard ppl say that something is impossible, then it happens. Heck, just in the past 2yrs Ive seen people die on their sword saying something could/would never happen, and it they happened - common sense and comprehension out the window. The old saying still applies, there are only 2 certainties in our life….
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#8589060
05/01/22 08:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,198
ntxtrapper
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Anything made can be made incorrectly and anything made can break. That Sig acknowledged there’s a problem is very telling.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: ntxtrapper]
#8589091
05/01/22 09:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,716
BigPig
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Anything made can be made incorrectly and anything made can break. That Sig acknowledged there’s a problem is very telling. So it’s only reported happening in 2 departments in the same state. Lots of departments use/used them. Only time I know of Sig stating there is an issue is when they are dropped and land in that perfect spot. There’s been a lot of documentation over the years of officers having an AD from a foreign object getting in the trigger guard while being holstered. I’d like to here the outcome and what Sig funds wrong with the gun.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: BigPig]
#8589166
05/01/22 10:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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My bet is foreign object in the holster. Walking made said object depress the trigger.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: BigPig]
#8589182
05/01/22 11:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,198
ntxtrapper
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Anything made can be made incorrectly and anything made can break. That Sig acknowledged there’s a problem is very telling. So it’s only reported happening in 2 departments in the same state. Lots of departments use/used them. Only time I know of Sig stating there is an issue is when they are dropped and land in that perfect spot. There’s been a lot of documentation over the years of officers having an AD from a foreign object getting in the trigger guard while being holstered. I’d like to here the outcome and what Sig funds wrong with the gun. 54 incidents across the country so far. I think this is the tenth lawsuit so far.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#8589201
05/01/22 11:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,221
Grizz
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I'm a big fan of Sig pistols, but I think everyone has to acknowledge two basic facts:
1. The P320 line isn't the same as the P226, P229, etc., and 2. Regardless of theory or design, just about anything is possible under the right circumstances.
There isn't enough information out yet regarding the details to be sure about what did or didn't happen. At this point, if you're solidly on one side of the line or the other you're likely a Sig fanboy or a Sig hater.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#8589244
05/02/22 12:56 AM
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 5,952
angus1956
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Checked my SN online and was manufactured 12-21 and has the mod for the drop discharge issue. So I'm good to go.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#8589249
05/02/22 01:01 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,906
luv2brode
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Well years ago Glock was looking at similar issue was deemed a holster issue not a gun issue most agencies don’t allow the brand of holster any more for duty
i am cancelling my subscription, i am tired of your issues!
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: Grizz]
#8589295
05/02/22 01:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,275
jeepercreeper
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1. The P320 line isn't the same as the P226, P229, etc
Man that is the truth
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: BigPig]
#8589451
05/02/22 01:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,645
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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Anything made can be made incorrectly and anything made can break. That Sig acknowledged there’s a problem is very telling. So it’s only reported happening in 2 departments in the same state. Lots of departments use/used them. Only time I know of Sig stating there is an issue is when they are dropped and land in that perfect spot. There’s been a lot of documentation over the years of officers having an AD from a foreign object getting in the trigger guard while being holstered. I’d like to here the outcome and what Sig funds wrong with the gun. My bet is it's the holster the dept is using. Second option would be they somehow got a bad batch of weapons, since they probably received a group that was mfg together.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: Grizz]
#8589452
05/02/22 01:06 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,055
HWY_MAN
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Why is it that officers who shoot themselves always blame the gun? First it happened with Glocks, and now it's happening with the P320. Simply put, striker guns won't fire without the trigger being pulled because of a firing pin safety. The P320 had the flaw of firing when dropped at a specific angle, but the upgraded guns are just like any other striker gun now. I think that the physical safeties and double action triggers just masked the poor trigger discipline for people- the real issue here. I suppose there's the possibility of debris in the holster, or a poor leather holster that caught the trigger as she was inserting the gun, but my money's on her finger pulling that trigger.
The article says there is surveillance video of the gun going off in her holster without being touched. Like to see that video.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: Grizz]
#8589499
05/02/22 02:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,568
garyrapp55
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There isn't enough information out yet regarding the details to be sure about what did or didn't happen. At this point, if you're solidly on one side of the line or the other you're likely a Sig fanboy or a Sig hater. Grizz has the wisdom not to assume and then immediately form and state an opinion. In my opinion, if you're solidly on one side of the line or the other already, you're a fool. I hope I never stand before a jury of my peers, seems too many have a predetermined decision.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#8589509
05/02/22 02:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,331
Dave Scott
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That's what happened when you don't carry a 1911.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: Dave Scott]
#8589522
05/02/22 02:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,352
RJH1
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That's what happened when you don't carry a 1911. You won the internet today
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: garyrapp55]
#8589575
05/02/22 03:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 420
Roughneck913
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There isn't enough information out yet regarding the details to be sure about what did or didn't happen. At this point, if you're solidly on one side of the line or the other you're likely a Sig fanboy or a Sig hater. Grizz has the wisdom not to assume and then immediately form and state an opinion. In my opinion, if you're solidly on one side of the line or the other already, you're a fool. I hope I never stand before a jury of my peers, seems too many have a predetermined decision. This is absolutely correct. If you've already made up your mind about who or what is at fault here, you are making a mistake.
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Re: Second Somerville police officer sues gunmaker Sig Sauer in federal court
[Re: Grizz]
#8589889
05/03/22 02:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,564
patriot07
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The P320 does not have a documented history of the guns firing while sitting in a holster.
It does now. Yep
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