Forums46
Topics538,056
Posts9,732,508
Members87,055
|
Most Online25,604 Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
Base to Ogive.....
#8260950
05/09/21 02:55 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,775
P_102
OP
Extreme Tracker
|
OP
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,775 |
How do most measure this when using the Hornady OAL guage?.......Do you insert until you barely feel? I’ve found that there can be as much as .033 difference between when I can “barely feel” (inserting lightly until it stops and a couple very light taps to make sure I’m there) vs. inserting with just enough pressure that the bullet sticks, in my case 2.155 vs. 2.188. Also, does anyone make a bullet seater that seats using the ogive vs. the bullet tip? Thanks.
Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8260990
05/09/21 03:42 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,638
DStroud
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,638 |
Most bullet seaters should touch closer to ogive than the actual tip of the bullet. You can put a bullet with a mild abrasive like JB or Flitz in a chuck and polish out your seater cup to try and get closer I guess.
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8260993
05/09/21 03:47 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173 |
I stop the caliper when I feel it stop. Tapping the caliper might be seating the bullet deeper in the case.
If you're getting the ring around the bullets, Hornady and Redding make seating stems for the pointy high BC bullets, so that they don't damage the bullet while seating.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261018
05/09/21 04:14 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,455
Big Fitz
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,455 |
I use a VERY light touch when pushing the plunger in until I feel it first touch or meet any resistance (touching the lands). I put the plunger between index finger and thumb similar to holding a pencil and get very repeatable results. I take 3 readings per bullet and 5 separate bullets for a total of 15 measurements and take an average. I rarely have more than .002 delta between measurements.
Most die companies make a VLD bullet seater.
Last edited by Big Fitz; 05/09/21 04:16 PM.
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261050
05/09/21 04:59 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,775
P_102
OP
Extreme Tracker
|
OP
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,775 |
Well, using a very light touch. I just measured 15 bullets, threw out the 2 highest and 2 lowest and came up with an average of 2.1560. ( I’m doing this because my accuracy has degraded a bit, hopefully due to the barrel being broken in, just over 350 rounds) I’m finding this strange because the initial loads (which shot fine) were 2.188 OBTO and .010 off the lands. Is this kind of change normal?
Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261107
05/09/21 06:28 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173 |
Time to scrub out the carbon ring, clean the whole barrel, then find lands again.
The smaller the bore, the larger the powder charge, the faster the throat erosion. 6mm Creedmoor is a pretty small bore, with quite a bit of powder. But I'm more leaning towards carbon ring. It's a scrub with a brush job, after soaking in a carbon remover.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261123
05/09/21 06:45 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,775
P_102
OP
Extreme Tracker
|
OP
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,775 |
Agree except I’ve cleaned the hell out of it with iosso, Butch’s and brushes. Wouldn’t throat erosion cause the distance to be longer?
Last edited by P_102; 05/09/21 06:51 PM.
Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261131
05/09/21 06:54 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173 |
Erosion would cause longer.
Two different calipers in question here as well. My analog and your digital.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: Big Fitz]
#8261156
05/09/21 07:45 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,923
Jgraider
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,923 |
I use a VERY light touch when pushing the plunger in until I feel it first touch or meet any resistance (touching the lands). I put the plunger between index finger and thumb similar to holding a pencil and get very repeatable results. I take 3 readings per bullet and 5 separate bullets for a total of 15 measurements and take an average. I rarely have more than .002 delta between measurements.
Most die companies make a VLD bullet seater. Same here.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261233
05/09/21 09:28 PM
|
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,198
Smokey Bear
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,198 |
Clean your chamber as well as the barrel. Stand the rifle vertical on the buttstock to take your measurements. That should make the lands easier to feel. Effect of gravity on a long horizontal bullet in a loose neck can give a false measurement. Double check which bushing you are using as well. The next size smaller bushing will give a short measurement. As soon as your bullet touches the lands is the measurement you want.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261242
05/09/21 09:37 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 33,984
Buzzsaw
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 33,984 |
besides a VLD seater, your neck tension could be too tight. Do you use and expander mandrel?
I have always used the long Hornady tool with a small dowel rod inserted through the muzzle till it touches the tip of the bullet, then go back and forth, very positive feeling of bullet touching and entering the lands.
SPACE FOR RENT
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261654
05/10/21 12:44 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,200
Korean Redneck
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,200 |
How do most measure this when using the Hornady OAL guage?.......Do you insert until you barely feel? I’ve found that there can be as much as .033 difference between when I can “barely feel” (inserting lightly until it stops and a couple very light taps to make sure I’m there) vs. inserting with just enough pressure that the bullet sticks, in my case 2.155 vs. 2.188. Also, does anyone make a bullet seater that seats using the ogive vs. the bullet tip? Thanks. The following is in response to your first question about the OAL gauage and how to use it. Disclaimer, it does not follow conventional norms on this forum. I kinda hard shove my bullet in an attempt to find the hard jam point. In fact, it's only a reference to know what's the max and NOT go there. After that I do run a small seating depth test to see what depth it likes. Again this is not the "kiss your lands and back off xx" procedure. I mostly model this after the follow video. https://youtu.be/obTvUY5LQ3A in about minute 12. And... https://youtu.be/oRXlCG9YZbQI've tried other methods and found them VERY inconsistent. This is what I do now and have been supremely satisfied since. I've actually met Texas Precision at a local Houston f class match and can definitely say he can shoot. FYI, I've been told this method leads to excessive throat erosion but I've not heard why. Edit: i do definitely make sure to really clean the barrel before doing this. I have found that fouling will screw up the measurement.
Last edited by Korean Redneck; 05/10/21 12:45 PM.
I'm a dude who likes long barrels!
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261718
05/10/21 02:06 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,638
DStroud
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,638 |
I use this method often as I have 3 Switch barrel rifles and while it’s a little slower it very accurate. https://youtu.be/cAVDu-4gLrk
"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."
Jack O'Connor 1963
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: DStroud]
#8261784
05/10/21 03:48 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,200
Korean Redneck
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,200 |
I don't know about constantly taking off a barrel but...what a great technique. I may have to try it out. I'd like to buy a barrel for a new caliber by the end of the year. I may try this before installing it. Thanks for the info.
I'm a dude who likes long barrels!
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8261809
05/10/21 04:14 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,954
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,954 |
I do the same method above, but with the rifle and chamber checking the round by closing the bolt. You can easily find the lands doing the same thing when chamber checking the round and looking for rifling marks. It take 3-4 rounds and several attempts to dial it in, but it works.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: J.G.]
#8262106
05/10/21 10:04 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,455
Big Fitz
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,455 |
Two different calipers in question here as well. My analog and your digital. This plus you have a different ogive measurement tool and technique that could account for differences. The absolute measurement is not as critical as consistency in your measurement process and the ability to duplicate it. Watch a few Erik Cortina videos on "finding jam" and "chasing the lands". Scott Satterlee has a different take on jump to lands and seems to favor the .060 range.
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8262422
05/11/21 05:29 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,564
patriot07
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,564 |
Yeah it's one of the tougher things to get a feel for in my experience. I honestly probably measure 20 or 30 times until I get a feel for the amount of force required to get consistent results. Once I start getting the same answer within 2 or 3 thousandths for at least 5 measurements in a row. I usually start at .030 off the lands for ELD-M and adjust from there if necessary. I've found that .020 usually works a hair better in my experience.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: Big Fitz]
#8262861
05/11/21 05:53 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,424
tenyearsgone
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,424 |
Two different calipers in question here as well. My analog and your digital. This plus you have a different ogive measurement tool and technique that could account for differences. The absolute measurement is not as critical as consistency in your measurement process and the ability to duplicate it. Watch a few Erik Cortina videos on "finding jam" and "chasing the lands". Scott Satterlee has a different take on jump to lands and seems to favor the .060 range. I found this to be true. My rifles actually don’t mind if I set CBTO .001-.002 off from the distance I selected. My 7-08 die is a cheaper RCBS type with the nut and stem so I don’t always get the same exact length when loading. Measuring my max OAL has solved accuracy and pressure problems. Mag length rounds in my 7-08 will smash the bullet into the lands which caused numerous overpressure incidents. Now, I haven’t had so much as an ejector swipe.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8262923
05/11/21 07:05 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,775
P_102
OP
Extreme Tracker
|
OP
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,775 |
First off, many thanks for all the responses.....I finally took some measurements and found the biggest reason for the varied results is the bullets themselves (115 DTAC).... I found up to 0.015 differences in diameter thus not allowing them to fit into the comparator the same with each one. Mr. Stroud, I used your method by inserting the loaded round (sans powder) through the chamber and then turning the gun over to see if it would drop out freely. This gave me the best/most repeatable results. Again, thanks all!
Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8262972
05/11/21 07:49 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,954
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,954 |
I found up to 0.015 differences in diameter thus not allowing them to fit into the comparator the same with each one. ???
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8263229
05/11/21 11:03 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173 |
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#8264191
05/12/21 07:22 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,549
redchevy
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,549 |
I found up to 0.015 differences in diameter thus not allowing them to fit into the comparator the same with each one. ??? As in bullet diameter? 0.015 goes from a .243 to bigger than a .257?
It's hell eatin em live
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8269861
05/19/21 03:15 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,052
glocker17
Pro Tracker
|
Pro Tracker
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,052 |
MY DTACs varied in length but never in diameter.
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: P_102]
#8270172
05/19/21 02:56 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,549
redchevy
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,549 |
Just curious, did this turn out to be a mixed box of bullets?
It's hell eatin em live
|
|
|
Re: Base to Ogive.....
[Re: redchevy]
#8270270
05/19/21 04:16 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173 |
This turned out to be a caliper problem. Inaccurate, cheap digital caliper.
And a finding rifling problem with the Hornady tool.
I loaded a piece of brass (cut neck) with one of Chris's bullets long, wrote it down, chambered it, wrote it down, repeat, repeat, repeat. Throat erosion is only .024" right now, after 350 rounds. I used an American Made Starrett analog caliper. Then used a second one of the same make and model. I have one for the loading bench, and one for the lathe. Both Starrett calipers gave exactly the same measurements to the thousandth.
Four bullets varied in length only .001", base to ogive, if memory serves.
Four bullets had no variance in diameter.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
|