Forums46
Topics538,030
Posts9,732,135
Members87,055
|
Most Online25,604 Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
#7895019
07/09/20 02:11 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,047
mikei
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
|
OP
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,047 |
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895030
07/09/20 02:19 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,797
dogcatcher
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,797 |
https://www.newswest9.com/article/n...513-a30477f5-35fb-41cb-97fb-e8aaad6250b2 Midland Memorial Hospital says inhaled steroid is no 'silver bullet' for COVID-19 "There’s no scientific proof, no carefully evaluated peer review studies, that prove the efficacy of those treatments."
MIDLAND, Texas — It's a story NewsWest 9 broke back in May, and now it seems it is getting more local and national attention.
A controversial treatment for COVID-19 used by an Odessa doctor, Richard Bartlett, who calls it the 'silver bullet' has been brought in front of the world.
Others in the medical profession are not convinced it is what it is cracked up to be.
On Tuesday, Midland Memorial Hospital addressed those claims…again.
Richard Bartlett has been a general practitioner for 28 years. He believes the inhaled steroid, Budesonide, helps alleviate the Cytokine storms COVID patients may experience.
In May, Bartlett told us, “I had a patient with a 50-year history of smoking, bypass surgery and they felt better immediately," he said. "It’s a medicine that’s been out for 25 years but I’ve never seen work so good, it’s like this medicine was made for this pandemic.”
On Tuesday, Midland Memorial Hospital addressed those claims…again.
“People are out there saying it works, but there’s no scientific proof, no carefully evaluated peer review studies that prove the efficacy of those treatments," Russell Meyers, Midland Health CEO, said. "We are not aware of anything that is over-the-counter that would make any difference in their care.”
These hospital officials do not think Dr. Bartlett’s treatment is backed up enough in the medical community.
But they do say treatments like Remdesivir are.
“Do your homework, we’re not making things up in this country there's no conspiracy theory," said Lawrence Wilson, Vice President of Medical Affairs. "There is good information about peer-reviewed data in regards to best practices.”
Wilson is calling on the public to be hesitant over ideas like Bartlett's.
“I want to caution people if it sounds too good to be true and it is being described as the 'silver bullet', well it probably is too good to be true," Wilson said. "The things that medical professional come out with quickly get disseminated."
NewsWest 9 reached out to Dr. Bartlett for comment. His press person tells us that he is swamped with calls and emails about the steroid treatment.
He still stands by his statement that it is the 'silver bullet' for COVID-19.
As for his success rate, he still says it is 100% for the dozen patients he has treated back in May.
We could not confirm how many people he has treated since then.
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895043
07/09/20 02:36 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,281
BradyBuck
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,281 |
It's too cheap and easy to get
That's the problem with it
HRCH Washita's Kimber Locked N Loaded GRHRCH Firefly's Rally The Troops MH
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895050
07/09/20 02:44 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 479
RGLass
Bird Dog
|
Bird Dog
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 479 |
I hope that the doctor survives this.
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895051
07/09/20 02:45 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,765
Paluxy
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,765 |
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895058
07/09/20 02:53 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,024
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,024 |
I will say again, for a disease with a mortality of less than 1%, the sample size to see if it actually was successful or not is several thousand. The sample size for this guy is a couple dozen. If I treated a coupe dozen covid patients with dirt, I would expect to be able to say it worked great, awesome treatment, no one died.
This is nothing but a joke. I mean who treats a few dozen patients then seeks out the news to tell his story? Sorry. I will be called all kinds of names now.
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895074
07/09/20 03:14 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 19,134
TCM3
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 19,134 |
I'm sure cures for a multitude of ailments started with it working on a few people ...
Do not forget to entertain strangers, For by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels Hebrews 13:2 (R-TX)
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: TCM3]
#7895075
07/09/20 03:19 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,696
krmitchell
Extreme Tracker
|
Extreme Tracker
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,696 |
I'm sure cures for a multitude of ailments started with it working on a few people ... Sure but efficacy can’t be measured in double digits for something that infects thousands much less millions.
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: krmitchell]
#7895076
07/09/20 03:26 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 19,134
TCM3
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 19,134 |
I'm sure cures for a multitude of ailments started with it working on a few people ... Sure but efficacy can’t be measured in double digits for something that infects thousands much less millions. Good point.
Do not forget to entertain strangers, For by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels Hebrews 13:2 (R-TX)
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7895108
07/09/20 04:21 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652
Pitchfork Predator
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652 |
I will say again, for a disease with a mortality of less than 1%, the sample size to see if it actually was successful or not is several thousand. The sample size for this guy is a couple dozen. If I treated a coupe dozen covid patients with dirt, I would expect to be able to say it worked great, awesome treatment, no one died.
This is nothing but a joke. I mean who treats a few dozen patients then seeks out the news to tell his story? Sorry. I will be called all kinds of names now.
You should be called out for your comment.......so how does he round up several thousand Covid patients to validate his findings? Should he keep secret something he tried on all the patients he had with a 100 percent success rate? What have you done to contribute to a solution? NOTHING! That’s the joke and it’s on you.....
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: Pitchfork Predator]
#7895125
07/09/20 05:16 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,024
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,024 |
I will say again, for a disease with a mortality of less than 1%, the sample size to see if it actually was successful or not is several thousand. The sample size for this guy is a couple dozen. If I treated a coupe dozen covid patients with dirt, I would expect to be able to say it worked great, awesome treatment, no one died.
This is nothing but a joke. I mean who treats a few dozen patients then seeks out the news to tell his story? Sorry. I will be called all kinds of names now.
You should be called out for your comment.......so how does he round up several thousand Covid patients to validate his findings? Should he keep secret something he tried on all the patients he had with a 100 percent success rate? What have you done to contribute to a solution? NOTHING! That’s the joke and it’s on you..... Marc, I have tried to educate the public. Apparently I am doing a pretty bad job of it because most folks on here give me nothing but grief about what I say. It’s ok, I am fine with that, since I know what I am saying is correct and no amount of badgering or name calling or harassment will get me to change my tune. I know most on here don’t understand medicine, let alone science, but I try to help. That isn’t to say I am a know it all, or someone who can not be wrong. I have admitted when something isn’t right and I have admitted when I have been wrong on here, multiple times. What we are talking about above is not a matter of opinion or fact, it is about what science says about a medical treatment. For a treatment to claim to be successful against a disease with a mortality of less than 1%, the number needed to treat in a well designed randomized study is in the thousands. I would never expect any single doctor to treat thousands of covid patients. That is why we have things called multi-center studies, where multiple locations partner up and use the same criteria to study the same thing. That is science and that is how studies are done. In order to say something is a benefit, it takes that much. Now, having a doctor come on the news and do several interviews/press conferences and say his treatment (which is being used widely in most covid patients since inhaled steroids are a normal treatment for respiratory illness) is a silver bullet or a miracle drug based on a couple dozen patients Is just so off the wall and not scientific it isn’t funny. The fact it makes news (I saw this yesterday from a friend who asked about it, a day before it was posted here) is just an example of the sensationalistic nature of the 24 hr news cycle and the way the media try to make a name for themselves. This isn’t news. It is a doctor doing what doctors do, that is treat patients. What isn’t normal is for a doctor to try and profiteer or become “famous” for treating patients. I don’t know this guy at all, but I know the type. Been around them for decades. Bottom line is I am sorry I am constantly raining on your parade. I know you didn’t start this thread, but you seem to take offense to me criticizing the scientific method and numbers behind the claim. I am not the one making the claim this is a silver bullet to covid, but I am sure not going to stand by and let it be pushed as such, when even the local docs from the news story agree with what I am saying. To put out misleading info and push that into mainstream is irresponsible. I throw the punches when I see them, not only when they are popular, and certainly won’t back down from someone throwing them back. You should know that. Like I said, I knew name calling would come, so feel free to pile on more.
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895126
07/09/20 05:28 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 23,177
Bee'z
The Beedazzler
|
The Beedazzler
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 23,177 |
TB, We have already determined you are FOS and have made that decision based on your previous posts.
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: Bee'z]
#7895128
07/09/20 05:33 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,024
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,024 |
TB, We have already determined you are FOS and have made that decision based on your previous posts. That’s fine, just ignore my posts then. I don’t go commenting on someone who I think is FOS, though I rarely think anyone is really FOS, I am usually a glass half full kind of guy
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895135
07/09/20 08:49 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,462
StephenB
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,462 |
I think a study should be done comparing the efficacy of dirt vs Remdesivir. Wouldn't surprise me if dirt won.
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895158
07/09/20 11:45 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,765
Paluxy
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,765 |
Does anyone really think this doctor is the first to discover this? Corticosteroid inhalers used by asthma patients may help treat COVID-19, researchers to begin human clinical trials The ultimate goal of the trial is to analyse if the Budesonide inhaler can be used as a low-cost and easily available early intervention therapy for COVID-19 patients to reduce the risks of severe respiratory illness.
The effect that the SARS-CoV-2 virus has on the human respiratory system is very well known now. Recent studies on COVID-19 have shown that the pathogenesis (the manner in which the disease develops) of the virus in the body involves the macrophages (specialised cells that detect and destroy harmful virus or bacteria that have entered the body) of the lungs releasing cytokines which end in hyper-inflammation and a cytokine storm.
A recent study also showed that the steroid dexamethasone, when administered to severely ill COVID-19 patients, can reduce mortality risks.
Steroids, it is stipulated, can inhibit the adhesion and action of cytokines, and by this regulation of the immune response, these drugs can prevent the onset of acute respiratory distress syndrome or ARDS. Keeping this effect of steroids in mind, researchers from Oxford University and the Queensland University of Technology are collaborating on starting human clinical trials of inhaled corticosteroids (ICS) therapy on COVID-19 patients. https://www.firstpost.com/health/co...begin-human-clinical-trials-8572901.html
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895196
07/09/20 12:29 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 18,556
ducknbass
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 18,556 |
Just a quick glance here I can tell that the doctor is not a Republican because our local dog catcher is definitely not okay with his medical opinion. I could also tell that it is not been through a multimillion dollar study yet because our local mystery doctor is not okay with his medical findings. So what I'm seeing is that a doctor has had some good success using a treatment but it is not acceptable to our local mystery doctor nor is it okay with our dog catcher because the media is not backing with this treatment yet.
so what this doctor needs to do is pay off the media so that dog catcher gets on board and spend a few million dollars in a study so that our mystery doctor approves his treatment.
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: ducknbass]
#7895200
07/09/20 12:36 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 29,132
TXHOGSLAYER
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 29,132 |
Just a quick glance here I can tell that the doctor is not a Republican because our local dog catcher is definitely not okay with his medical opinion. I could also tell that it is not been through a multimillion dollar study yet because our local mystery doctor is not okay with his medical findings. So what I'm seeing is that a doctor has had some good success using a treatment but it is not acceptable to our local mystery doctor nor is it okay with our dog catcher because the media is not backing with this treatment yet.
so what this doctor needs to do is pay off the media so that dog catcher gets on board and spend a few million dollars in a study so that our mystery doctor approves his treatment. Yep
LETS GO BRANDON
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: Bee'z]
#7895211
07/09/20 12:50 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 21,923
Mike W
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 21,923 |
TB, We have already determined you are FOS and have made that decision based on your previous posts.
This cannot be fixed at the voting booth.. Wake Up You Morons!
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895217
07/09/20 01:01 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,024
Texas buckeye
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,024 |
For someone who is so FOS, you guys seem to care an awful lot about what I say....local mystery doctor, lol. I will say again, if you don't like what I say then just ignore me. I seem to irritate some of you just by posting anything so I won't be offended if you don't pay attention to me. It won't stop me from posting, I don't need an echo chamber on an internet forum to validate myself. I am gonna tell you all I will be out for a bit now, so feel free to fan the flames and flame away at me, I won't be responding for several hours
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7895219
07/09/20 01:05 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 21,923
Mike W
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 21,923 |
For someone who is so FOS, you guys seem to care an awful lot about what I say....local mystery doctor, lol. I will say again, if you don't like what I say then just ignore me. I seem to irritate some of you just by posting anything so I won't be offended if you don't pay attention to me. It won't stop me from posting, I don't need an echo chamber on an internet forum to validate myself. I am gonna tell you all I will be out for a bit now, so feel free to fan the flames and flame away at me, I won't be responding for several hours You're a legend in your own mind. Can anyone here vouch for this guy's credentials as a virologist or epidemiologist or respiratory disease specialist?
This cannot be fixed at the voting booth.. Wake Up You Morons!
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: Texas buckeye]
#7895244
07/09/20 01:32 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652
Pitchfork Predator
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652 |
I will say again, for a disease with a mortality of less than 1%, the sample size to see if it actually was successful or not is several thousand. The sample size for this guy is a couple dozen. If I treated a coupe dozen covid patients with dirt, I would expect to be able to say it worked great, awesome treatment, no one died.
This is nothing but a joke. I mean who treats a few dozen patients then seeks out the news to tell his story? Sorry. I will be called all kinds of names now.
You should be called out for your comment.......so how does he round up several thousand Covid patients to validate his findings? Should he keep secret something he tried on all the patients he had with a 100 percent success rate? What have you done to contribute to a solution? NOTHING! That’s the joke and it’s on you..... Marc, I have tried to educate the public. Apparently I am doing a pretty bad job of it because most folks on here give me nothing but grief about what I say. It’s ok, I am fine with that, since I know what I am saying is correct and no amount of badgering or name calling or harassment will get me to change my tune. I know most on here don’t understand medicine, let alone science, but I try to help. That isn’t to say I am a know it all, or someone who can not be wrong. I have admitted when something isn’t right and I have admitted when I have been wrong on here, multiple times. What we are talking about above is not a matter of opinion or fact, it is about what science says about a medical treatment. For a treatment to claim to be successful against a disease with a mortality of less than 1%, the number needed to treat in a well designed randomized study is in the thousands. I would never expect any single doctor to treat thousands of covid patients. That is why we have things called multi-center studies, where multiple locations partner up and use the same criteria to study the same thing. That is science and that is how studies are done. In order to say something is a benefit, it takes that much. Now, having a doctor come on the news and do several interviews/press conferences and say his treatment (which is being used widely in most covid patients since inhaled steroids are a normal treatment for respiratory illness) is a silver bullet or a miracle drug based on a couple dozen patients Is just so off the wall and not scientific it isn’t funny. The fact it makes news (I saw this yesterday from a friend who asked about it, a day before it was posted here) is just an example of the sensationalistic nature of the 24 hr news cycle and the way the media try to make a name for themselves. This isn’t news. It is a doctor doing what doctors do, that is treat patients. What isn’t normal is for a doctor to try and profiteer or become “famous” for treating patients. I don’t know this guy at all, but I know the type. Been around them for decades. Bottom line is I am sorry I am constantly raining on your parade. I know you didn’t start this thread, but you seem to take offense to me criticizing the scientific method and numbers behind the claim. I am not the one making the claim this is a silver bullet to covid, but I am sure not going to stand by and let it be pushed as such, when even the local docs from the news story agree with what I am saying. To put out misleading info and push that into mainstream is irresponsible. I throw the punches when I see them, not only when they are popular, and certainly won’t back down from someone throwing them back. You should know that. Like I said, I knew name calling would come, so feel free to pile on more. This response is a total fail....... You gave yourself too much rope and now you will be eating breakfast, lunch and dinner on word from this long diatribe........this doctor is being interviewed by the national media to simply tell his success story and instead of taking credit, he points out he is one of many doctors all over the world using this treatment........he points out in the interview Shanghai, Singapore and Japan have some of the lowest death numbers because they have been using this treatment as well as others like Hydc........you assumed big time on this one and now you look like an A$$.....
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: Pitchfork Predator]
#7895260
07/09/20 01:49 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,415
jdk1985
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,415 |
I will say again, for a disease with a mortality of less than 1%, the sample size to see if it actually was successful or not is several thousand. The sample size for this guy is a couple dozen. If I treated a coupe dozen covid patients with dirt, I would expect to be able to say it worked great, awesome treatment, no one died.
This is nothing but a joke. I mean who treats a few dozen patients then seeks out the news to tell his story? Sorry. I will be called all kinds of names now.
You should be called out for your comment.......so how does he round up several thousand Covid patients to validate his findings? Should he keep secret something he tried on all the patients he had with a 100 percent success rate? What have you done to contribute to a solution? NOTHING! That’s the joke and it’s on you..... Marc, I have tried to educate the public. Apparently I am doing a pretty bad job of it because most folks on here give me nothing but grief about what I say. It’s ok, I am fine with that, since I know what I am saying is correct and no amount of badgering or name calling or harassment will get me to change my tune. I know most on here don’t understand medicine, let alone science, but I try to help. That isn’t to say I am a know it all, or someone who can not be wrong. I have admitted when something isn’t right and I have admitted when I have been wrong on here, multiple times. What we are talking about above is not a matter of opinion or fact, it is about what science says about a medical treatment. For a treatment to claim to be successful against a disease with a mortality of less than 1%, the number needed to treat in a well designed randomized study is in the thousands. I would never expect any single doctor to treat thousands of covid patients. That is why we have things called multi-center studies, where multiple locations partner up and use the same criteria to study the same thing. That is science and that is how studies are done. In order to say something is a benefit, it takes that much. Now, having a doctor come on the news and do several interviews/press conferences and say his treatment (which is being used widely in most covid patients since inhaled steroids are a normal treatment for respiratory illness) is a silver bullet or a miracle drug based on a couple dozen patients Is just so off the wall and not scientific it isn’t funny. The fact it makes news (I saw this yesterday from a friend who asked about it, a day before it was posted here) is just an example of the sensationalistic nature of the 24 hr news cycle and the way the media try to make a name for themselves. This isn’t news. It is a doctor doing what doctors do, that is treat patients. What isn’t normal is for a doctor to try and profiteer or become “famous” for treating patients. I don’t know this guy at all, but I know the type. Been around them for decades. Bottom line is I am sorry I am constantly raining on your parade. I know you didn’t start this thread, but you seem to take offense to me criticizing the scientific method and numbers behind the claim. I am not the one making the claim this is a silver bullet to covid, but I am sure not going to stand by and let it be pushed as such, when even the local docs from the news story agree with what I am saying. To put out misleading info and push that into mainstream is irresponsible. I throw the punches when I see them, not only when they are popular, and certainly won’t back down from someone throwing them back. You should know that. Like I said, I knew name calling would come, so feel free to pile on more. This response is a total fail....... You gave yourself too much rope and now you will be eating breakfast, lunch and dinner on word from this long diatribe........this doctor is being interviewed by the national media to simply tell his success story and instead of taking credit, he points out he is one of many doctors all over the world using this treatment........he points out in the interview Shanghai, Singapore and Japan have some of the lowest death numbers because they have been using this treatment as well as others like Hydc........you assumed big time on this one and now you look like an A$$..... That's not diatribe... That style is nothing like Socrates, Teles, Epictetus and the sort...
Last edited by jdk1985; 07/09/20 01:50 PM.
Instagram @justinkingwoodworking
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895268
07/09/20 01:56 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652
Pitchfork Predator
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,652 |
Part of the definition of diatribe is ironic criticism.......look it up
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895270
07/09/20 01:57 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,415
jdk1985
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 13,415 |
I've actually written a book about it...
Instagram @justinkingwoodworking
|
|
|
Re: Winner, WInner, Covid Beater!
[Re: mikei]
#7895275
07/09/20 02:00 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 14,950
don k
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 14,950 |
Texas buckeye is treating patients with dirt?
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
|