Yes and no I guess if you shoot 1/2 your does logic says you cut your fawn number in half. Maybe your recruitment goes up?
Recruitment will go up, as health increase your likelihood of twins goes up. Also as the rut is more pronounced then the breeding dates will be closer, there for more fawns will hit the ground at the same time causing a fawn swamping which essentially overwelms predation.
On a long rut .... predators are better at picking them off before the get old enough to evade.
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Not intending to take away from the experience, but if a fawn is in your front yard, it probably isn’t going to make it anyway, if you have a front yard like most folks have. A fawn needs more cover than most front yards can give.
Guess I should have provided some context. I lived out in the country. Nearest neighbors were a half mile away. Coyote chased the fawn off the hill behind the house and caught it at the edge of the yard. Mama doe was there 30 seconds later, after the yote killed and carried the fawn off.
We shot an old eight point and a nice 10 point off the front porch that fall.
Yes and no I guess if you shoot 1/2 your does logic says you cut your fawn number in half. Maybe your recruitment goes up?
Recruitment will go up, as health increase your likelihood of twins goes up. Also as the rut is more pronounced then the breeding dates will be closer, there for more fawns will hit the ground at the same time causing a fawn swamping which essentially overwelms predation.
On a long rut .... predators are better at picking them off before the get old enough to evade.
As usual, Bobo right on the money, IMO.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Coyote impact on deer
[Re: tlk]
#779863204/07/2003:48 PM
The ranches that excel at effectively limiting coyotes you arent going to publicize it.
If you are a decent trapper/caller and you are killing lots of coyotes via calling and trapping means you have a lot to call and trap...
When I say effective I mean extreme lack of presence of yotes. You can control to a degree populations with year round trapping and hunting, but not limit.
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We trap and shoot every coyote and bobcat we can on our small HF place. It is a constant battle and we've been losing, to be honest. It's also rumored that we have had problems with domestic canines getting inside the fence and killing deer.... We have been trying to repair and skirting to the fence to keep them from digging in, where we have done that, we seem to have less problems but there is a lot of fence still left to skirt. The landowner also insisted on having the front pasture cut late last summer (because he didn't like the way it looked) and this is where a lot of the BB hang out. I know we had 5 babies that were residing in that pasture that didn't make it. I also wondered if birds might have helped make these disappear, esp since we have an eagle that frequents the ranch...…..
Re: Coyote impact on deer
[Re: tlk]
#779868304/07/2004:42 PM
"Also as the rut is more pronounced then the breeding dates will be closer, there for more fawns will hit the ground at the same time causing a fawn swamping which essentially overwelms predation."
Dang, I never thought of this before and it sure makes a lot of sense. Guess I learned something from a Clown!
"Also as the rut is more pronounced then the breeding dates will be closer, there for more fawns will hit the ground at the same time causing a fawn swamping which essentially overwelms predation."
Dang, I never thought of this before and it sure makes a lot of sense. Guess I learned something from a Clown!
Yeah, I first learned that I think 2 years ago at TWA Convention. It seems so obvious that im sure the experts have known it for awhile but I never thought about it. I sure miss STXRanchmans posts on stuff like this and MANY more, anybody know why hes not posting.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
"Also as the rut is more pronounced then the breeding dates will be closer, there for more fawns will hit the ground at the same time causing a fawn swamping which essentially overwelms predation."
Dang, I never thought of this before and it sure makes a lot of sense. Guess I learned something from a Clown!
Yeah, I first learned that I think 2 years ago at TWA Convention. It seems so obvious that im sure the experts have known it for awhile but I never thought about it. I sure miss STXRanchmans posts on stuff like this and MANY more, anybody know why hes not posting.
I taught the old man everything he knows.
Except the mule deer calling, it was at that point I almost called the funny farm on him.... then I was stampeded by 10 plus mule deer and four coyotes
I learned fawning while reading up Blk bear and coyote management
Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes
Don, how many LF places have something other than 5 strand barn as their fences? If it is a game Fence yes it is impassable by a young dawn. But most paces I have seen in Texas have 5 strand (or less) barb and a fawn can easily sneak underneath the lower strand. So can coyotes, but the point is. In a HF, game fence situation, the coyote can corner any animal and make an easier kill along the fence line. Obviously this becomes an issue in small HF sections, the larger the area of HF the less this becomes an issue.
That is why I said you are in a different situation, you need to take out as many coyotes as possible in your HF area, and keep them away from your LF area as much as possible so the coyotes don’t try to enter the HF.
In most LF areas, coyotes don’t have as captive an audience as a Small HF area.
Around here net wire fences outnumber barb wire probably 10 to one. I don't what places in Texas you are seeing more barb wire fencing unless it is in the Panhandle.
Huh, that’s totally not what I have seen. Hunted south Texas, and didn’t see much net on the road sides, hunted north Texas, northwest Texas, never saw net. Either HF game type or 5 strand. Never hunted panhandle. In OK where I am now, I never see net, only 5 strand or HF (not much but there is some up there).
Makes it interesting to see different perspectives and see what other folks see. A conversation can be totally swayed one way or the other based on preconceived notions that are neither right nor wrong, just different.
Don, how many LF places have something other than 5 strand barn as their fences? If it is a game Fence yes it is impassable by a young dawn. But most paces I have seen in Texas have 5 strand (or less) barb and a fawn can easily sneak underneath the lower strand. So can coyotes, but the point is. In a HF, game fence situation, the coyote can corner any animal and make an easier kill along the fence line. Obviously this becomes an issue in small HF sections, the larger the area of HF the less this becomes an issue.
That is why I said you are in a different situation, you need to take out as many coyotes as possible in your HF area, and keep them away from your LF area as much as possible so the coyotes don’t try to enter the HF.
In most LF areas, coyotes don’t have as captive an audience as a Small HF area.
Around here net wire fences outnumber barb wire probably 10 to one. I don't what places in Texas you are seeing more barb wire fencing unless it is in the Panhandle.
Huh, that’s totally not what I have seen. Hunted south Texas, and didn’t see much net on the road sides, hunted north Texas, northwest Texas, never saw net. Either HF game type or 5 strand. Never hunted panhandle. In OK where I am now, I never see net, only 5 strand or HF (not much but there is some up there).
Makes it interesting to see different perspectives and see what other folks see. A conversation can be totally swayed one way or the other based on preconceived notions that are neither right nor wrong, just different.
^^^Agree Texbuck on all points. Don't think hes untruthful or unaware so just a matter of perspective from what hes used to. I think Hill Country may have lots of sheep/goats so different type fences I guess, but 10 to 1 is a bunch. My curiosity is up now. I also have hunted all over Texas, and recently Okla as well, and very rarely see any kind of net wire.
At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: Coyote impact on deer
[Re: tlk]
#779906604/07/2011:52 PM
Just haven’t seen the net don is talking about. I used to live in San Antonio for 7 years and while I didn’t get out much I still didn’t see a lot of net there either. Interesting perspective for sure.
Yes and no I guess if you shoot 1/2 your does logic says you cut your fawn number in half. Maybe your recruitment goes up?
Recruitment will go up, as health increase your likelihood of twins goes up. Also as the rut is more pronounced then the breeding dates will be closer, there for more fawns will hit the ground at the same time causing a fawn swamping which essentially overwelms predation.
On a long rut .... predators are better at picking them off before the get old enough to evade.
Lots of factors at play I’d say. We do not have control over the deer heard on our place, small enough and neighbors don’t shoot does. We see rutting from mid/late December through all of February and maybe beginning of March. Yes I agree the more mouths you remove the better recruitment will be. Still think good cover is a huge advantage for them and due to near omnipresence of agriculture be it crops or cattle or goats etc many place lack that cover. I’ve seen our place with and without stock and it does make a noticeable difference.
It's hell eatin em live
Re: Coyote impact on deer
[Re: tlk]
#779936104/08/2003:39 AM
Like some others have said, we kill them when we see them but we haven't done much beyond that. We like to talk a big game, but when we get some dinner in us and have a couple of drinks, the coyote calling tends to go by the wayside. I've let several bobcats walk but I won't turn down a shot at a coyote when the opportunity presents itself.
Re: Coyote impact on deer
[Re: tlk]
#779939204/08/2004:20 AM
For 300 years ranchers in North America have been trying everything they can think of to get rid of coyotes. Nearest I can tell they’ve not been effective. Have fun trying to eliminate them. I hear them most nights around my place in east Texas but the forest is so thick i never see them.
Podcast: Reasoning Through the Bible ReasoningThroughTheBible.com
Re: Coyote impact on deer
[Re: tlk]
#779959804/08/2002:17 PM
Our landowner offered us a 100 bucks for every yote or bobcat killed when we first got on our place. Not a single $100 reward yet and have never seen either in person or on camera
Re: Coyote impact on deer
[Re: tlk]
#779998104/08/2006:38 PM
Recruitment can get so big, some culling programs require shooting yearlings and fawns with their antlerless numbers.
I'm a firm believer in taking younger deer and leaving the more experienced doe behind. Otherwise, you lose both the doe and yearling when the yearling is later lost to predators due to inexperience. Anyone who has ever watched how a mature doe pays attention while a yearling ignores signs of danger knows that full well. Also, those additional months that a yearling has with its mother during the winter when predators are most hungry and aggressive can make all the difference. Huge difference in being orphaned just before winter rather than later in the spring when there's more cover and plenty to eat. Saying "It'll make it" is little more than wishful thinking.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 04/08/2007:15 PM.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Recruitment can get so big, some culling programs require shooting yearlings and fawns with their antlerless numbers.
I'm a firm believer in taking younger deer and leaving the more experienced doe behind. Otherwise, you lose both the doe and yearling when the yearling is later lost to predators due to inexperience. Anyone who has ever watched how a mature doe pays attention while a yearling ignores signs of danger knows that full well. Also, those additional months that a yearling has with its mother during the winter when predators are most hungry and aggressive can make all the difference. Huge difference in being orphaned just before winter rather than later in the spring when there's more cover and plenty to eat. Saying "It'll make it" is little more than wishful thinking.
Yet you support Culling spikes as a way to increase the prominence of superior genetics, that same mind set would say you should concentrate with reckless abandonment on older age class doe(s) which in theory would have a higher probability of inferior genetics...........
Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes
Yet you support Culling spikes as a way to increase the prominence of superior genetics, that same mind set would say you should concentrate with reckless abandonment on older age class doe(s) which in theory would have a higher probability of inferior genetics...........
Shooting the younger, less experienced doe has nothing to do with genetics but is seen as a way to maintain deer numbers.
Beyond that, I'll let annual harvest limits dictate the balance between carrying capacity and ensuring hunters have good success rates. After all, it's a system that continues to satisfy the needs of the vast majority of Texas deer hunters.
"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Coyote impact on deer
[Re: tlk]
#780033904/08/2011:26 PM
a previous deer lease I was on had the most stringent coyote killing program I've seen. A professional trapper came in for around 30 days every march, and killed hundreds a year. throughout the year, snares and other traps were set. all coyotes were shot that were seen. Along with bobcats and others. Fawn crop % started in the 50% range and went up consistently and peaked around 105%. But every year... hundreds of coyotes got trapped. Their resilience is absolutely amazing.
Yet you support Culling spikes as a way to increase the prominence of superior genetics, that same mind set would say you should concentrate with reckless abandonment on older age class doe(s) which in theory would have a higher probability of inferior genetics...........
Shooting the younger, less experienced doe has nothing to do with genetics but is seen as a way to maintain deer numbers.
Beyond that, I'll let annual harvest limits dictate the balance between carrying capacity and ensuring hunters have good success rates. After all, it's a system that continues to satisfy the needs of the vast majority of Texas deer hunters.
If you subscribe to TDM like you do by eliminating spikes because you don’t want them breeding, then an early culling means in theory that your best genetics bred, there for your older does will always as a whole will be the off spring of previous less desirable Breeders...in theory your culling strategy increases the prominence of desired genetics...
Annual harvest limits? Ya that’s a Very scientific county and property allocation 😂
I just don’t understand any of your agruements, they don’t even compliment each other
Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes
I sure miss STXRanchmans posts on stuff like this and MANY more, anybody know why hes not posting.
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