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Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: missingAK] #7752750 02/21/20 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by missingAK

Mine too. Just to be transparent. I don't need the evidence though. It only serves to bolster my faith but it doesn't really prove one thing or another for me.




This

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7752783 02/21/20 08:19 PM
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Best I can tell faithful Christian believes 1. There is a God he is the God of the Bible. 2. He sent his son to be in the flesh. He was hung from a cross and died for our sins. He defeated death and Rose from the dead. 3. He will return one day.

Now how anyone picks through the Bible and believes part of it but not all of it. I am not sure. But I suppose that it is possible. But I can say if you believe that Jesus was sacrificed and Rose from the dead. Believing creation as it's written is real easy. Like I said before. Look at the historical accuracy of the story of Jesus. Nobody refutes it.

Edit. I'm sure the story is refuted by some historians but the story has been investigated by historians many times outside of biblical writing and it is widely believed to have happened.

Last edited by ducknbass; 02/21/20 08:22 PM.
Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7752828 02/21/20 09:13 PM
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Man, a lot of deep thoughts here. The answer is probably right in front of everyone. Why not just ask Ox? Seems like he's been around since the beginning.

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7752840 02/21/20 09:27 PM
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Glad we are in a good place socially, Galileo wasn't so lucky, and he was one of the great minds of the time.

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: SapperTitan] #7752863 02/21/20 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SapperTitan
I don’t believe in the Big Bang


Then how can you explain all matter is hurling into deep space from a central point?

If galaxies & all matter is moving thru space, from a central point, does that mean that at some point it will retract to same point?

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: ducknbass] #7752869 02/21/20 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ducknbass
I believe earth to be 5-7k years old.


Based on what?

The commonly accepted theory is 3,500,000,000. That’s along ways apart.

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7752875 02/21/20 09:58 PM
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Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: jetdad] #7752949 02/21/20 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jetdad
Man, a lot of deep thoughts here. The answer is probably right in front of everyone. Why not just ask Ox? Seems like he's been around since the beginning.



I think Ox is wise enough to avoid this thread.

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: S.A. hunter] #7753024 02/22/20 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by S.A. hunter
Glad we are in a good place socially, Galileo wasn't so lucky, and he was one of the great minds of the time.

Thanks for starting the thread Mickey Moose. I admire Brian Greene’s mind and find his story interesting, but then I’ve found if you take the time to listen, most people have an interesting story.

As a Believer on a lifelong quest for wisdom and knowledge, I enjoy reading and listening to lectures that span Nobel laureates to teachers and preachers. Personally I find it possible to take nourishment in the truth from each encounter, without feeling any obligation to also drink the Kool-Aid.

As an astronomer and someone constantly seeking knowledge, I found a couple of Greene’s books, papers, and lectures interesting. When it comes to his books and lectures, he has a gift for using analogies that help some wrap their mind around theories that are often difficult to grasp, and in some cases still impossible to prove.

Greene, like most scientists, is a teacher, not a preacher. Personally I find it disheartening when a science discussion turns into a religious debate. I tend to agree with Galileo when he said, “The intention of the Holy Spirit is to teach how to get to Heaven, not how the heavens go…”

As a Believer, my spirit grieves over the debate that occurred between 1610 to 1633 when Galileo attempted, but failed to prove to church leaders that Copernicus’ 1543 published theory was correct. Copernicus had the nerve to suggest the earth orbits the sun and was not the center of the universe. Galileo was convicted of heresy by the Church in 1633 and imprisoned for the rest of his life for being right…

Early civilizations including the Greeks and Romans commonly believed in a Geocentric model of the universe where the earth was fixed at the center and all other heavenly bodies orbited the earth. Both Aristotle and Ptolemy believed this. The Catholic Church believed it for well over 1500 years and it was also believed by Martin Luther, the leader of the Protestant Reformation.

Leaders of the Church attempted to disparage Copernicus’ theory using the argument that he must be wrong due to a 1000 years of wisdom and because it’s in the Bible… Copernicus’ theory caused problems with the way certain bible verses had been interpreted for over a 1000 years. Examples include the story in Joshua 10:13, how the sun and moon stood still during the Battle of Gibeon and how the earth was said to be in a fixed location and didn’t move in 1 Chronicles 16:30.

In 1615, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine wrote,
Quote
“...not only the Holy Fathers, but also the modern commentaries on Genesis, the Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Joshua, you will find all agreeing in the literal interpretation that the sun is in heaven and turns around the earth with great speed, and that the earth is very far from heaven and sits motionless at the center of the world...Nor can one answer that this is not a matter of faith, since if it is not a matter of faith 'as regards the topic,' it is a matter of faith 'as regards the speaker': and so it would be heretical to say that Abraham did not have two children and Jacob twelve, as well as to say that Christ was not born of a virgin, because both are said by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of prophets and apostles.”


Along with the Greeks and Romans, the Protestant and Catholic camps many of us belong to were clearly wrong on this issue. This fact doesn’t shake my faith or my personal belief in the Gospel. I still Believe but I also know I don’t have to stay in the Dark Ages when it comes to science.

Blue Moon


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Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Blue Moon] #7753078 02/22/20 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Moon
Originally Posted by S.A. hunter
Glad we are in a good place socially, Galileo wasn't so lucky, and he was one of the great minds of the time.

Thanks for starting the thread Mickey Moose. I admire Brian Greene’s mind and find his story interesting, but then I’ve found if you take the time to listen, most people have an interesting story.

As a Believer on a lifelong quest for wisdom and knowledge, I enjoy reading and listening to lectures that span Nobel laureates to teachers and preachers. Personally I find it possible to take nourishment in the truth from each encounter, without feeling any obligation to also drink the Kool-Aid.

As an astronomer and someone constantly seeking knowledge, I found a couple of Greene’s books, papers, and lectures interesting. When it comes to his books and lectures, he has a gift for using analogies that help some wrap their mind around theories that are often difficult to grasp, and in some cases still impossible to prove.

Greene, like most scientists, is a teacher, not a preacher. Personally I find it disheartening when a science discussion turns into a religious debate. I tend to agree with Galileo when he said, “The intention of the Holy Spirit is to teach how to get to Heaven, not how the heavens go…”

As a Believer, my spirit grieves over the debate that occurred between 1610 to 1633 when Galileo attempted, but failed to prove to church leaders that Copernicus’ 1543 published theory was correct. Copernicus had the nerve to suggest the earth orbits the sun and was not the center of the universe. Galileo was convicted of heresy by the Church in 1633 and imprisoned for the rest of his life for being right…

Early civilizations including the Greeks and Romans commonly believed in a Geocentric model of the universe where the earth was fixed at the center and all other heavenly bodies orbited the earth. Both Aristotle and Ptolemy believed this. The Catholic Church believed it for well over 1500 years and it was also believed by Martin Luther, the leader of the Protestant Reformation.

Leaders of the Church attempted to disparage Copernicus’ theory using the argument that he must be wrong due to a 1000 years of wisdom and because it’s in the Bible… Copernicus’ theory caused problems with the way certain bible verses had been interpreted for over a 1000 years. Examples include the story in Joshua 10:13, how the sun and moon stood still during the Battle of Gibeon and how the earth was said to be in a fixed location and didn’t move in 1 Chronicles 16:30.

In 1615, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine wrote,
Quote
“...not only the Holy Fathers, but also the modern commentaries on Genesis, the Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Joshua, you will find all agreeing in the literal interpretation that the sun is in heaven and turns around the earth with great speed, and that the earth is very far from heaven and sits motionless at the center of the world...Nor can one answer that this is not a matter of faith, since if it is not a matter of faith 'as regards the topic,' it is a matter of faith 'as regards the speaker': and so it would be heretical to say that Abraham did not have two children and Jacob twelve, as well as to say that Christ was not born of a virgin, because both are said by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of prophets and apostles.”


Along with the Greeks and Romans, the Protestant and Catholic camps many of us belong to were clearly wrong on this issue. This fact doesn’t shake my faith or my personal belief in the Gospel. I still Believe but I also know I don’t have to stay in the Dark Ages when it comes to science.

Blue Moon


Are you suggesting that young earth creationists are in the "dark ages" when it comes to science?

Science discussions often turn into religious debates because our presuppositions about origins will necessarily effect the way we interpret scientific evidence. An Atheistic scientist and a Theistic scientist can, and often do, look at the same piece of evidence and come to different conclusions. Why? Because they have entirely different presuppositions.

Last edited by missingAK; 02/22/20 01:25 AM.

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." Winston Churchill
Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7753086 02/22/20 01:30 AM
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I'm of the opinion it doesn't matter.


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Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: bigbob_ftw] #7753109 02/22/20 01:54 AM
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Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7753112 02/22/20 01:56 AM
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Just to be clear, I actually think the "big bang theory" is a pretty good theory based on what can be observed about the universe. The reason scientists are so stuck on this theory now is because they recognize, logically, that EVERYTHING cannot have come from NOTHING. There has to be a starting point and that starting point has to be eternal or "just always there".

For the Theist, the eternal, self existing creator created everything else (outside of itself) out of nothing by divine power.
For the Atheist, the eternal, self existing matter created everything else (including itself) out of nothing by random chance. (remember scientific laws, ie thermodynamics, entropy, gravity, etc) were also non-existent until they "were".

The most logical answer is a creator. The most logical creator is a self existent, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Creator. If that creator spoke things into existence out of nothing...it makes sense that we might observe creation "emanating" out from a central point.

That there was nothing, and then "bang" there was everything, is actually pretty Biblical


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Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7753125 02/22/20 02:11 AM
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Religion, and science are based on two different things.

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7753130 02/22/20 02:20 AM
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Here's a crazy theory. What if God, for the purpose of confounding those who professed to be wise, created the universe with the appearance of age?

That would explain a lot of the seeming discrepancies between Theistic origin and Atheistic origin theories. That certainly is not outside of the character of the God of the Bible. In fact, he did it with Adam and Eve.


"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." Winston Churchill
Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: S.A. hunter] #7753131 02/22/20 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by S.A. hunter
Religion, and science are based on two different things.

I don't believe they are.


"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." Winston Churchill
Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7753137 02/22/20 02:26 AM
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No they aren't.. I believe in absolute truth. Not two truths.

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: ducknbass] #7753139 02/22/20 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ducknbass
No they aren't.. I believe in absolute truth. Not two truths.

Exactly......

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: missingAK] #7753140 02/22/20 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by missingAK
Originally Posted by Blue Moon
Originally Posted by S.A. hunter
Glad we are in a good place socially, Galileo wasn't so lucky, and he was one of the great minds of the time.

Thanks for starting the thread Mickey Moose. I admire Brian Greene’s mind and find his story interesting, but then I’ve found if you take the time to listen, most people have an interesting story.

As a Believer on a lifelong quest for wisdom and knowledge, I enjoy reading and listening to lectures that span Nobel laureates to teachers and preachers. Personally I find it possible to take nourishment in the truth from each encounter, without feeling any obligation to also drink the Kool-Aid.

As an astronomer and someone constantly seeking knowledge, I found a couple of Greene’s books, papers, and lectures interesting. When it comes to his books and lectures, he has a gift for using analogies that help some wrap their mind around theories that are often difficult to grasp, and in some cases still impossible to prove.

Greene, like most scientists, is a teacher, not a preacher. Personally I find it disheartening when a science discussion turns into a religious debate. I tend to agree with Galileo when he said, “The intention of the Holy Spirit is to teach how to get to Heaven, not how the heavens go…”

As a Believer, my spirit grieves over the debate that occurred between 1610 to 1633 when Galileo attempted, but failed to prove to church leaders that Copernicus’ 1543 published theory was correct. Copernicus had the nerve to suggest the earth orbits the sun and was not the center of the universe. Galileo was convicted of heresy by the Church in 1633 and imprisoned for the rest of his life for being right…

Early civilizations including the Greeks and Romans commonly believed in a Geocentric model of the universe where the earth was fixed at the center and all other heavenly bodies orbited the earth. Both Aristotle and Ptolemy believed this. The Catholic Church believed it for well over 1500 years and it was also believed by Martin Luther, the leader of the Protestant Reformation.

Leaders of the Church attempted to disparage Copernicus’ theory using the argument that he must be wrong due to a 1000 years of wisdom and because it’s in the Bible… Copernicus’ theory caused problems with the way certain bible verses had been interpreted for over a 1000 years. Examples include the story in Joshua 10:13, how the sun and moon stood still during the Battle of Gibeon and how the earth was said to be in a fixed location and didn’t move in 1 Chronicles 16:30.

In 1615, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine wrote,
Quote
“...not only the Holy Fathers, but also the modern commentaries on Genesis, the Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Joshua, you will find all agreeing in the literal interpretation that the sun is in heaven and turns around the earth with great speed, and that the earth is very far from heaven and sits motionless at the center of the world...Nor can one answer that this is not a matter of faith, since if it is not a matter of faith 'as regards the topic,' it is a matter of faith 'as regards the speaker': and so it would be heretical to say that Abraham did not have two children and Jacob twelve, as well as to say that Christ was not born of a virgin, because both are said by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of prophets and apostles.”


Along with the Greeks and Romans, the Protestant and Catholic camps many of us belong to were clearly wrong on this issue. This fact doesn’t shake my faith or my personal belief in the Gospel. I still Believe but I also know I don’t have to stay in the Dark Ages when it comes to science.

Blue Moon


Are you suggesting that young earth creationists are in the "dark ages" when it comes to science?

Science discussions often turn into religious debates because our presuppositions about origins will necessarily effect the way we interpret scientific evidence. An Atheistic scientist and a Theistic scientist can, and often do, look at the same piece of evidence and come to different conclusions. Why? Because they have entirely different presuppositions.

I was referring to the actual Dark Ages. Specifically to the example how the church was wrong for over a 1000 years when it believed in the Geocentric astronomical model. With that in mind, when it comes to science and the quest for knowledge, I always enter the journey with an open mind. My only presupposition is my complete understanding that I don’t know what I don’t know….


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Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7753149 02/22/20 02:35 AM
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Bluemoon what do you know about Hiawatha?

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: S.A. hunter] #7753154 02/22/20 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by S.A. hunter
Originally Posted by ducknbass
No they aren't.. I believe in absolute truth. Not two truths.

Exactly......

Do you believe the goal of science is to answer questions accurately or to create theories and more questions?


"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." Winston Churchill
Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: missingAK] #7753158 02/22/20 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by missingAK
Here's a crazy theory. What if God, for the purpose of confounding those who professed to be wise, created the universe with the appearance of age?

That would explain a lot of the seeming discrepancies between Theistic origin and Atheistic origin theories. That certainly is not outside of the character of the God of the Bible. In fact, he did it with Adam and Eve.

And the Tower of Babel...

Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: kry226] #7753168 02/22/20 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kry226
Originally Posted by missingAK
Here's a crazy theory. What if God, for the purpose of confounding those who professed to be wise, created the universe with the appearance of age?

That would explain a lot of the seeming discrepancies between Theistic origin and Atheistic origin theories. That certainly is not outside of the character of the God of the Bible. In fact, he did it with Adam and Eve.

And the Tower of Babel...

Absolutely. They thought they could find their way to God on their own. He put a stop to that mess in a big way.


"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened." Winston Churchill
Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: Mickey Moose] #7753173 02/22/20 03:00 AM
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dont know what was happening before but after I got a itch


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Re: What do you think was happening before the Big Bang? [Re: S.A. hunter] #7753241 02/22/20 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by S.A. hunter
Religion, and science are based on two different things.

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." --American astrophysicist Carl Sagan

grin


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