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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697348
12/24/19 06:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
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dogcatcher
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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/kiv.2006.71.4.004 THE SURVIVAL OF ARCHAIC TECHNOLOGY IN AN AGRICULTURAL WORLD: HOW THE ATLATL AND DART ENDURED IN THE NORTH AMERICAN SOUTHWEST TODD L. VANPOOL Pages 429-452 | Published online: 02 Apr 2015 Southwestern archaeologists typically believe that the bow and arrow were introduced into the North American Southwest around AD 500, spread in popularity, and completely replaced the atlatl and dart by AD 800. This empirical pattern is inconsistent with the prehistory of the culture areas around the Southwest, in which the atlatl and dart continued to be used long after the bow and arrow were introduced, sometimes even into the Historic period. I examine two cases in the North American Southwest where I find evidence of the use of atlatls and darts after the supposed AD 800 date of their replacement. Based on these data, I argue that the atlatl and dart were used later than they are commonly believed to have been, and that the details regarding when they stopped being used remain open empirical questions.
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697356
12/24/19 08:20 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,952
Sniper John
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If your interested in this sort of thing and want a look into how native americans truly lived a great book to read is "The Journey of Alvar Nuñez Cabeza De Vaca", originally "La relación y comentarios" a report by De Vaca written in 1542 about this failed Expedition starting in 1527. 1527 to 1536 would not be that far removed from the 1400s as far as native american customs go and this would be the first first hand book ever written about it. What amazed me is how varied regional customs, food, language, superstitions, etc. was. You can't paint the way people lived during that time with a broad brush, but for the most part the common denominators are you often starved, got cold alot, got attacked everywhere you went, and feared all sorts of superstitions that ruled your life. It would not have been a fun time and place to live in. When you did it eat, it was mostly what was available seasonal by area. Like nothing but cactus and cactus fruit for weeks or months, or blackberries for a month, oysters, among other things talked about in the book. And the bow was obviously well into use during 1527. A really interesting book if you have not read it. https://web2.qatar.cmu.edu/~breilly2/odyssey/Cabeza_de_Vaca.pdf From the book, imagine getting to eat mesquite beans prepared this way. This mezquiquez is a fruit which, while on the tree, is very bitter and like the carob bean. It is eaten with earth and then becomes sweet and very palatable. The way they prepare it is to dig a hole in the ground, of the depth it suits them, and after the fruit is put in that hole, with a piece of wood, the thickness of a leg and one and a half fathoms long they pound it to a meal, and to the earth that mixes with it in the hole they add several handfuls and pound again for a while. After that they empty it into a vessel, like a small, round basket, and pour in enough water to cover it fully, so that there is water on top. Then the one who has done the pounding tastes it, and if it appears to him not sweet enough he calls for more earth to add, and this he does until it suits his taste. Then all squat around and every one reaches out with his hand and takes as much as he can. The seeds and peelings they set apart on hides, and the one who has done the pounding throws them back into the vessel, pouring water over them again. They squeeze out the juice and water, and the husks and seeds they again put on hides, repeating the operation three or four times at every pounding. Those who take part in that banquet, which is for them a great occasion, get very big bellies from the earth and water they swallow.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697369
12/24/19 11:36 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Stub
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Wonder what it would have been like in the San Diego, CA area, hard to beat the year round weather there.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: Sniper John]
#7697379
12/24/19 12:10 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,055
HWY_MAN
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If your interested in this sort of thing and want a look into how native americans truly lived a great book to read is "The Journey of Alvar Nuñez Cabeza De Vaca", originally "La relación y comentarios" a report by De Vaca written in 1542 about this failed Expedition starting in 1527. 1527 to 1536 would not be that far removed from the 1400s as far as native american customs go and this would be the first first hand book ever written about it. What amazed me is how varied regional customs, food, language, superstitions, etc. was. You can't paint the way people lived during that time with a broad brush, but for the most part the common denominators are you often starved, got cold alot, got attacked everywhere you went, and feared all sorts of superstitions that ruled your life. It would not have been a fun time and place to live in. When you did it eat, it was mostly what was available seasonal by area. Like nothing but cactus and cactus fruit for weeks or months, or blackberries for a month, oysters, among other things talked about in the book. And the bow was obviously well into use during 1527. A really interesting book if you have not read it. https://web2.qatar.cmu.edu/~breilly2/odyssey/Cabeza_de_Vaca.pdf From the book, imagine getting to eat mesquite beans prepared this way. This mezquiquez is a fruit which, while on the tree, is very bitter and like the carob bean. It is eaten with earth and then becomes sweet and very palatable. The way they prepare it is to dig a hole in the ground, of the depth it suits them, and after the fruit is put in that hole, with a piece of wood, the thickness of a leg and one and a half fathoms long they pound it to a meal, and to the earth that mixes with it in the hole they add several handfuls and pound again for a while. After that they empty it into a vessel, like a small, round basket, and pour in enough water to cover it fully, so that there is water on top. Then the one who has done the pounding tastes it, and if it appears to him not sweet enough he calls for more earth to add, and this he does until it suits his taste. Then all squat around and every one reaches out with his hand and takes as much as he can. The seeds and peelings they set apart on hides, and the one who has done the pounding throws them back into the vessel, pouring water over them again. They squeeze out the juice and water, and the husks and seeds they again put on hides, repeating the operation three or four times at every pounding. Those who take part in that banquet, which is for them a great occasion, get very big bellies from the earth and water they swallow. Meziquiquez. I'm looking at the original text and when translated Meziquiquez is in reference to what de Vaca called stinging flour. The process they describe sounds more like the method for preparing acorns by grinding and leeching in water to remove the tannins. Mesquite beans can be eaten raw or ground up and when ripe have a high sugar content, no need for leeching. One of the early Native Americans who helped establish the southwest through trade was Magoosh Chief of the Lipan Apaches. He once said "With cactus you can survive, with Mesquite you can get fat". On a side note I've eaten breads made from Mesquite flour, drank Mesquite bean coffee from the roasted hard bean and have eaten jams made from grinding up the outer pod and drank a form of mead or beer from the same. Nopales I eat quite regularly and the tunas are a nice yearly surprise. Jams and wine from those. The average person just see's Mesquite and cactus as something to avoid, never thinking it can save your life. Surprising how much water you get out of munching on raw cactus pads. Many of the large flint scrapers we find were for just that purpose, scraping the thorns off the pads. It's slimy like ocra and some people like it that way. Humans like many animals can get allot of water out of a cactus, makes traveling a long ways easier. They've traveled days across areas that had no water but was covered in cactus. Maybe enough to keep one hydrated. Interesting part is this was they're daily routine, look for food and water, constantly look for threats (Two legged, four legged and no legged.) and try and stay warm and out of the weather. We have several rock overhangs on the ranch and the stone is black in the ceilings from anchient fires. Hell of a life!
Last edited by HWY_MAN; 12/24/19 12:56 PM.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697403
12/24/19 01:02 PM
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Joined: May 2006
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HWY_MAN
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Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: krmitchell]
#7697451
12/24/19 02:04 PM
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Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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I bet the majority of the meat they ate was fish. Killing an animal like a deer or buffalo was probably more rare than we think. Maybe but possum, squirrel, rabbits and coons don’t require a horse to catch, kill or trap. I imagine those animals were regular table fare. ^^My thinking. And, no doubt people got sick and some died eating native plants. But we know they learned what was nutritious, what was poisonous, and what was medicinal. As an example, every part of a cattail is edible. What has impressed me the most is the lesson I was given by a Terrell county rancher, and it lasted all day long on a 20 section ranch, we traveled by UTV. He took me to obvious shelters, showed me how they cooked, and told me what they ate. That is some of the hardest country on this continent, and they made a living.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697456
12/24/19 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
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Paluxy
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_jumpHunters herded the bison and drove them over the cliff, breaking their legs and rendering them immobile. Tribe members waiting below closed in with spears and bows to finish the kills. The Blackfoot Indians called the buffalo jumps "pishkun", which loosely translates as "deep blood kettle". This type of hunting was a communal event which occurred as early as 12,000 years ago and lasted until at least 1500 AD, around the time of the introduction of horses. The broader term game jumps includes buffalo jumps and cliffs used for similarly hunting other herding animals, such as reindeer. The Indians believed that if any buffalo escaped these killings then the rest of the buffalo would learn to avoid humans, which would make hunting even harder.[1]
Buffalo jump sites are often identified by rock cairns, which were markers designating "drive lanes", by which bison would be funneled over the cliff. These drive lanes would often stretch for several miles.
Buffalo jump sites yield significant archaeological evidence because processing sites and camps were always nearby. The sites yield information as to how the Native Americans used the bison for food, clothing and shelter. Plains Indians in particular depended on the bison for their survival. Every part of the animal could be used in some way: hides for clothes and shelter, bones for tools, sinews for bowstrings and laces. Hooves could be ground for glue, and the brains could be used in the tanning process for the hides. The extra meat was preserved as pemmican.[2]
In one of his journals, Meriwether Lewis describes how a buffalo jump was practiced during the Lewis and Clark Expedition:
one of the most active and fleet young men is selected and disguised in a robe of buffalo skin... he places himself at a distance between a herd of buffalo and a precipice proper for the purpose; the other Indians now surround the herd on the back and flanks and at a signal agreed on all show themselves at the same time moving forward towards the buffalo; the disguised Indian or decoy has taken care to place himself sufficiently near the buffalo to be noticed by them when they take to flight and running before them they follow him in full speed to the precipice; the Indian (decoy) in the mean time has taken care to secure himself in some cranny in the cliff... the part of the decoy I am informed is extremely dangerous.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697457
12/24/19 02:12 PM
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Dry Fire
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Poke salud. Who figured out you had to boil it three times before it became non toxic? After two attempts, I would have said screw it, lets try the leaves on that tomato plant and see what happens.
coffee spelled backwards is eeffoc. I don't give eeffoc until I have my morning coffee.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: krmitchell]
#7697552
12/24/19 04:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,261
Sniper.270
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I bet the majority of the meat they ate was fish. Killing an animal like a deer or buffalo was probably more rare than we think. Maybe but possum, squirrel, rabbits and coons don’t require a horse to catch, kill or trap. I imagine those animals were regular table fare. Very true. Skunk is said to be the best tasting small game at the time. Eating was more opportunistic at this point. Whatever presented itself. However if you take away all the rules we have in hunting and only apply taking an animal I am sure their success was better than one would think.
Proverbs 2
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697557
12/24/19 04:20 PM
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Sniper.270
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Cabaza de Vaca’s book/journal is an excellent read. I would highly recommend if interested in Texas Indians.
Proverbs 2
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: Dry Fire]
#7697561
12/24/19 04:22 PM
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Sniper.270
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Poke salud. Who figured out you had to boil it three times before it became non toxic? After two attempts, I would have said screw it, lets try the leaves on that tomato plant and see what happens. Exactly. Need often leads to many discoveries. The Caddo would prepare bullnettle nuts as a pain killer. If done correctly it has an effect similar to morphine.
Proverbs 2
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697577
12/24/19 04:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
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hook_n_line
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They winged it. It depended on where they were most likely. My father told us stories that were passed down from his people about seeing Buffalo around San Marcos and Guadalupe rivers where they camped. They wouldn't eat fish because they thought they were nasty. We eat them now because the buffalo are gone I guess.
Sometimes it's hard being me! But somebody has to do it.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697616
12/24/19 05:23 PM
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S.A. hunter
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The Indian that lived in the western US had to be some real bad A$$es. Only the strong survived. Amazing that they didnt advance much from the time they got to the continent some 25 thousand years ago. Meanwhile just a short 500 miles south of Texas large advanced civilizations thrived with cities of over 300k in population. I'm guessing it was easier to find food, water, and good soil in the jungle.
Like stated earlier I probably wouldn't settle Texas, or the western US aside from SoCal back then if I had a choice.
Last edited by S.A. hunter; 12/24/19 05:43 PM.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697645
12/24/19 05:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
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Roll-Tide
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Well, the ice bridge that allowed entry from Asia had melted. Or I would hitch a ride with Leif Erickson who landed on America 500 years before Columbus.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: Sniper.270]
#7697652
12/24/19 05:57 PM
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jetdad
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Poke salud. Who figured out you had to boil it three times before it became non toxic? After two attempts, I would have said screw it, lets try the leaves on that tomato plant and see what happens. Exactly. Need often leads to many discoveries. The Caddo would prepare bullnettle nuts as a pain killer. If done correctly it has an effect similar to morphine. Would you please post the recipe? Asking for a friend.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697703
12/24/19 06:55 PM
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Grizz
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When you mess around with bull nettle you'll need something like morphine.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7697992
12/25/19 03:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Palehorse
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There were a lot of worms, insects, and the like eaten very frequently. Grasshoppers, crickets, grubs, ect. Very nutritious and they didn't have to risk life and limb to gather them. I've eaten toasted hoppers and crickets. They really weren't bad.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7698049
12/25/19 05:51 AM
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BayouGuy
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Actually, prior to the disease epidemics introduced by de Soto, de Leon, Cortez, La Salle, Hudson, etc., most of the Americas had large populations that lived quite well with a varied diet of vegetables, meat, foul, fish and other seafood. Various trapping methods involving nets, weirs and snares were well advanced and productive.
If you can't laugh at yourself, give me a call. I'll gladly laugh at you. "I keep trying to see Nancy Pelosi's and Chuck Schumer's point of view, but I can't seem to get my head that far up my [censored]." Senator John Kennedy, Louisiana
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: BayouGuy]
#7698088
12/25/19 12:42 PM
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HWY_MAN
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Actually, prior to the disease epidemics introduced by de Soto, de Leon, Cortez, La Salle, Hudson, etc., most of the Americas had large populations that lived quite well with a varied diet of vegetables, meat, foul, fish and other seafood. Various trapping methods involving nets, weirs and snares were well advanced and productive. A little more detail on that if you have it. I've seen drawings of some rather elaborate traps and snares. Some could catch a deer!
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7698094
12/25/19 01:09 PM
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BayouGuy
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Start with 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/pre-columbian
If you can't laugh at yourself, give me a call. I'll gladly laugh at you. "I keep trying to see Nancy Pelosi's and Chuck Schumer's point of view, but I can't seem to get my head that far up my [censored]." Senator John Kennedy, Louisiana
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: GusWayne]
#7698207
12/25/19 03:42 PM
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pegasaurus
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Just a few weeks ago during a cold snap my FIL were talking of Indian times
If you were more than about 3 feet away from a fire, most likely you were cold
Seems pretty rough
And I never figured out why some tribes stayed in the Dakotas or anywhere up north for that matter
Surely they found out the more south the warmer after time. But idk While studying the history of the Apache, there was numerous stories about their migration from the "Great North". That’s interesting. Still makes we wonder why big tribes like the Sioux and Crow stayed. The Comanches had a pretty good area and I can understand their choice Back then it would have been cold everywhere. Global warming over the last 100 years or so has driven the cold further North.
Funny thing about getting older: Your eyesight starts getting weaker but your ability to see through people's BS gets much better.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7698402
12/25/19 07:35 PM
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dogcatcher
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There was also a larger wild animal population back then. I have read news reports of bear and antelope in the Ballinger, Runnels county area in the 1880's. Also mention of springs and running creeks that today are seasonal only when it rains.
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: dogcatcher]
#7698507
12/25/19 10:12 PM
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txtrophy85
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There was also a larger wild animal population back then. I have read news reports of bear and antelope in the Ballinger, Runnels county area in the 1880's. Also mention of springs and running creeks that today are seasonal only when it rains. Certainly a more diverse population but they still had screw worms, predators , etc. In any case, a person on foot with a stick bow probably couldn’t count on going out an collecting a pronghorn or bear at will. But live water was much, much more plentiful
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: dogcatcher]
#7698513
12/25/19 10:25 PM
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GusWayne
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There was also a larger wild animal population back then. I have read news reports of bear and antelope in the Ballinger, Runnels county area in the 1880's. Also mention of springs and running creeks that today are seasonal only when it rains. Idk how true it is but this older man I know told me his grand parents or maybe great grand parents came to north Texas in the 1880’s and they said they were bears up here
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Re: It's the 1400's and your Native American.
[Re: HWY_MAN]
#7698516
12/25/19 10:37 PM
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dogcatcher
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This was in 1880 This was 1876
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
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