Forums46
Topics539,613
Posts9,751,817
Members87,171
|
Most Online25,604 Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Choctaw]
#7640088
10/23/19 07:12 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
I think you might be surprised how good a hunters most Native Americans were. Especially in the nomadic tribes.
Yes they struggled, yes many died, yes they gathered, yes they killed by any means - but they were a helluva lot more than wastrels wandering the earth eking out a fringe existence. They crossed the Bering Land bridge and populated the entirety of North and South America in the span of a few thousand years.
That didn’t happen by luck or by marginal survivors. I think there were also more available food sources to be had than we are accustomed to now. its interesting to speculate on how things actually were. I tend to take written history with a grain of salt, as most of it has been glamorized or mis-construed in many ways. Look at our boy Chris Columbus for instance. We were always taught he discovered America. Now its commonly taught that he discovered Haiti and was a slave trader and otherwise awful person. Most of my reading on the subject is not schoolbook stuff - it’s the best that can be gleaned from dedicated authors who are also hard researchers. As just one example, the Comanches ruled the Southwest until after the Civil War (with some brief exceptions when the Rangers were active). The skill with which they wielded their bows/arrows almost defies belief but is well and consistently documented by many first person accounts. The same can be said of many tribes (Kiowa, Apache, Karankawa, Sioux, Crow, Iroquois, etc., etc...). There were definitely lesser tribes who relied more on scavenging, gathering, and agriculture - but my guess is even their hunting skills were probably nothing to sneer at. Why would the Eastern Woodland tribes be lesser? The Eastern Woodland Indians survived by hunting, farming and trading. We were much more advanced than the Plains Indians you seem to be so infatuated with. Read some of the missionary accounts of the Choctaws, Chickasaws and Cherokees and you many think differently. Better yet, visit some of the Nations next time you go to the Tulsa gun show. We can show you a thing or two. Chill out. It wasn’t represented as an exhaustive list - (notice the etc., etc.....?). I even said that the hunting skills of even the agricultural tribes was nothing to sneer at. (Plus, last I looked the Iroquois were an eastern woodlands tribe.) My whole point in this thread is defending/highlighting the hunting prowess of Native Americans in the face of those who would basically paint them as hand-to-mouth scavengers, yet I’m the one you want to take issue with? OK....
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640198
10/23/19 09:05 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172 |
I do know that Indians gave up on the bows when they got ahold of Sharps and Winchester’s....
I would be interested to know how good of woodsman they were pre-European influence.
Must have been a tough, tough life
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: txtrophy85]
#7640211
10/23/19 09:25 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,839
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
|
kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,839 |
I do know that Indians gave up on the bows when they got ahold of Sharps and Winchester’s....
I would be interested to know how good of woodsman they were pre-European influence.
Must have been a tough, tough life they were not near as buffalo dependent or efficient, that’s for sure. Introduction of the horse drastically changed the land scape. With out the horse they where more like bears extremely good at optimization of give freebies... You take game laws out of the equation and playing field gets a lot less even for animals.
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: txtrophy85]
#7640234
10/23/19 09:41 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,115
Booner1
OP
Veteran Tracker
|
OP
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,115 |
I do know that Indians gave up on the bows when they got ahold of Sharps and Winchester’s....
I would be interested to know how good of woodsman they were pre-European influence.
Must have been a tough, tough life This was my whole point when I posted up, was just how tough it must have been and how skilled they had to be to survive. I was a cultural way of life that was exactly that, life or death. If this country ever goes back to the days of hunter/gatherers, most of population will perish after a short time.
Born to hunt and fish.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#7640275
10/23/19 10:23 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172 |
I do know that Indians gave up on the bows when they got ahold of Sharps and Winchester’s....
I would be interested to know how good of woodsman they were pre-European influence.
Must have been a tough, tough life they were not near as buffalo dependent or efficient, that’s for sure. Introduction of the horse drastically changed the land scape. With out the horse they where more like bears extremely good at optimization of give freebies... You take game laws out of the equation and playing field gets a lot less even for animals. The Comanche, which were expert horseman, were very pretty much opportunistic feeders prior to the introduction of the horse according to the experts on the subject. if you have absolutely nothing to do all day, but look for food in pre-European North America, I think it would range from pretty easy to get a belly full of food to pretty dismal depending on the season. I also think prior to horseback they didn't eat near the amount of big game as we think and sustained themselves on a lot of small game, birds, fish and reptiles.
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640278
10/23/19 10:26 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172 |
I do know that Indians gave up on the bows when they got ahold of Sharps and Winchester’s....
I would be interested to know how good of woodsman they were pre-European influence.
Must have been a tough, tough life This was my whole point when I posted up, was just how tough it must have been and how skilled they had to be to survive. I was a cultural way of life that was exactly that, life or death. If this country ever goes back to the days of hunter/gatherers, most of population will perish after a short time. it would be interesting for sure. I for one would head west. Forget hunting deer i'm knocking off as many meat goats and calves as I can. Deer and pigs would be a last resort
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640324
10/23/19 11:22 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
There is a cave in Europe in which anthropologists have found the remains of over 20,000 fallow deer. 20,000.
The ancients were not just dumpster divers.
And they didn’t “Give up on the bows when they got ahold of Sharps and Winchesters.” Guns (and moreso ammunition) were hard to come by even in the latter days just before their extirpation. Bows/arrows were still used extensively as late as in the Battle of the Little Bighorn in 1876 - even though they also used firearms to great effect in the battle. Many Comanches never opted for firearms - and eyewitness accounts provide a testament to their effectiveness with a bow. Did the Native Americans use firearms? Yes. Sometimes extensively when they could gather them and ammunition in quantity. But it’s an oversimplified myth that they substituted them for their primitive weapons en masse at any point, because that’s not what happened. Their primitive weapons were used extensively to the end.
See Ishi as Exhibit 1.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640355
10/24/19 12:01 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
The grizzly, the eagle, the coyote (and many other animals) will take advantage of any food opportunities that come their way, even carrion - because they are survivors.
That doesn’t mean they aren’t still wonderfully skilled hunters of the first order. It’s not a binary proposition.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640360
10/24/19 12:08 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,839
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
|
kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,839 |
The mountain lion is an extremely good hunter, the wolf is also I highly skilled and thought out pack hunting animal.
The Bear is a seasonal calf killer, that’s spends more time scavenging just like the yote,
Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640377
10/24/19 12:26 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Lol it’s a wonder them dang Native Americans and bears survived before us white people came along with our Winchesters and cattle to help them out.
Did we teach them how to hunt too?
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#7640397
10/24/19 12:45 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172 |
There is a cave in Europe in which anthropologists have found the remains of over 20,000 fallow deer. 20,000.
The ancients were not just dumpster divers.
And they didn’t “Give up on the bows when they got ahold of Sharps and Winchesters.” Guns (and moreso ammunition) were hard to come by even in the latter days just before their extirpation. Bows/arrows were still used extensively as late as in the Battle of the Little Bighorn in 1876 - even though they also used firearms to great effect in the battle. Many Comanches never opted for firearms - and eyewitness accounts provide a testament to their effectiveness with a bow. Did the Native Americans use firearms? Yes. Sometimes extensively when they could gather them and ammunition in quantity. But it’s an oversimplified myth that they substituted them for their primitive weapons en masse at any point, because that’s not what happened. Their primitive weapons were used extensively to the end.
See Ishi as Exhibit 1.
Having spent a lot of time around fallow deer....I can certainly believe that! Very wary critters here for sure!
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640398
10/24/19 12:46 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,818
dogcatcher
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,818 |
2 authors, Eve Ball and CL Sonnichsen, these 2 wrote about the Apache Indians. Eve Ball was a hands on interviewer of some of the Mescalero Elders. CL Sonnichsen, was more pf an academic author, since he was part of teh faculty at El Paso School of Mines, now UTEP. Both had quite a bit of word of mouth history of the Apache, If you have read the history of the Comanches, you will find a similarity of the them and the Apache and their "Gods" of the North. The same info will als surface if studying the other tribes, from the all over the country.
Did the Indians migrate through the Bering Straits? Too much similarities in the old stories of the Great North, Some believe they came over the North Pole during a warming period, eons ago. All tribes probably came near the same time frame, maybe as one tribe.
Eve Ball was a school teacher,, that moved to New Mexico to teach, then retired to Ruidoso, her life is a story in itself. She wrote a lot of books, they are easy reading and readily available on the used book market. A WWII widow and has an interesting Wiki page Sonnichsen, from Iowa that taught English at UTEP, a sort of "dry" read, but has backup to his sources that is sometimes cited in his books.
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640403
10/24/19 12:50 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172 |
My partner had a great grandfather that met his end at a mission south of San Antonio by an arrow fired from a Indian, can’t remember if it was an Apache or a Comanche.
I am not saying that Indians were bumbling fools that lived day to day by the string of their moccasins. I’m just saying I’m of the opinions that life wasn’t all peaches and cream and they had struggles hunting game just like anyone else would have.
No denying that they had skill sets Europeans did not and would not ever have.
Take a look at some of the uncontacted tribes in the Amazon , that should give a person a pretty good idea.
I’ve also read that plains Indians ( don’t know about the eastern tribes) were quite a bit taller than the European settlers. It was not uncommon to find 6’ Indians when your avg. European was 5’5-5’7
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640411
10/24/19 12:58 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172 |
Can y’all just imagine if Indians had suppressed Tikka 6.5 creedmoors?
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640415
10/24/19 01:02 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
It’s very interesting to me the very different paths to “civilization” that took place on the various continents. Especially the contrasts of the others compared to Europe/Middle East/Asia Minor.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#7640418
10/24/19 01:07 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172 |
It’s very interesting to me the very different paths to “civilization” that took place on the various continents. Especially the contrasts of the others compared to Europe/Middle East/Asia Minor. Yes, it’s very interesting. How we could have the Roman and Ottoman Empire on one side of the world and pretty much Stone Age nomads on the other
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: txtrophy85]
#7640430
10/24/19 01:19 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 17
TrophySites
Light Foot
|
Light Foot
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 17 |
It’s very interesting to me the very different paths to “civilization” that took place on the various continents. Especially the contrasts of the others compared to Europe/Middle East/Asia Minor. Yes, it’s very interesting. How we could have the Roman and Ottoman Empire on one side of the world and pretty much Stone Age nomads on the other Reason #1 why the North American Genocide wasn't a more difficult or time-consuming venture for our European ancestors. The first people Columbus met cut themselves on Spanish swords, having absolutely no understanding of what they were. By the time they figured out that "manifest destiny" meant "state-sponsored genocide" it was too late.
Last edited by TrophySites; 10/24/19 01:19 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640436
10/24/19 01:23 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,823
RattlesnakeDan
Veteran Tracker
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,823 |
Don't forget that many Indians were cannibalistic, food any way they could get it. Don't see much of that in history books.
Just like Jesus, sometimes you gotta kill some hogs. Lone Star Mesquite . com RattleSnake Dan's Shredding Service
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640439
10/24/19 01:23 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,658
GusWayne
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,658 |
My FIL have had this conversation...
I married a all natural, hippie wanna be, eat healthy, excericse gal
So...
Two years running, I’ve tried (her, not me) an all natural garden
Lemme tell ya, it ain’t much.
I’ve sprung into action and saved it w Miracle Grow
If they grew any type of garden, idk how they got by
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: TrophySites]
#7640443
10/24/19 01:27 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
It’s very interesting to me the very different paths to “civilization” that took place on the various continents. Especially the contrasts of the others compared to Europe/Middle East/Asia Minor. Yes, it’s very interesting. How we could have the Roman and Ottoman Empire on one side of the world and pretty much Stone Age nomads on the other Reason #1 why the North American Genocide wasn't a more difficult or time-consuming venture for our European ancestors. The first people Columbus met cut themselves on Spanish swords, having absolutely no understanding of what they were. By the time they figured out that "manifest destiny" meant "state-sponsored genocide" it was too late. The numbers 1 and 2 reasons we overwhelmed them were: 1)Sheer numbers; and 2)European diseases we brought to which they had no resistance;
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#7640457
10/24/19 01:48 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 407
DeleteThisAccount
Bird Dog
|
Bird Dog
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 407 |
Reason #1 why the North American Genocide wasn't a more difficult or time-consuming venture for our European ancestors. The first people Columbus met cut themselves on Spanish swords, having absolutely no understanding of what they were.
By the time they figured out that "manifest destiny" meant "state-sponsored genocide" it was too late.
The numbers 1 and 2 reasons we overwhelmed them were:
1)Sheer numbers; and 2)European diseases we brought to which they had no resistance;
It helped that in the years preceding the arrival of Columbus that the majority of the east coast population was wiped out by a plague that historians say had a greater fatality rate than the black plague in Europe. Our European ancestors essentially had lucky timing, arriving during a time when the east coast population was low enough to gain a foothold. At least, that's how I remember it being taught, who knows if it's really true.
Last edited by Binary; 10/24/19 01:48 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: GusWayne]
#7640557
10/24/19 03:27 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 29,771
Sneaky
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 29,771 |
My FIL have had this conversation...
I married a all natural, hippie wanna be, eat healthy, excericse gal
So...
Two years running, I’ve tried (her, not me) an all natural garden
Lemme tell ya, it ain’t much.
I’ve sprung into action and saved it w Miracle Grow
If they grew any type of garden, idk how they got by
That doesn’t mean much. Indigenous people of the Amazon made incredibly fertile soils from nothing without Miracle Grow. Soils nearly ten times as fertile as the most productive soils in the Midwest of America. They just happened to know what they were doing.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: GusWayne]
#7640568
10/24/19 03:47 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 17
TrophySites
Light Foot
|
Light Foot
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 17 |
If they grew any type of garden, idk how they got by
Indigenous Americans domesticated the "three sisters" over around 6000 years in Central America, and it spread north and was adapted to local climates to become a core survival technique for virtually everyone. The three sisters are corn, beans, and squash, all planted in a symbiotic plot. Corn provides a stalk for the beans to climb, beans feed nitrogen to the soil, and squash keeps weeds from popping up. It's nature's Miracle Gro.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640574
10/24/19 04:05 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 32,172 |
Disease was the main undoing of the American Indian.
Also, I’d read a lot of research that it was actually bovine TB that did the buffalo in, not bullets
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
|
|
|
Re: Archery hunting, something to thnk about
[Re: Booner1]
#7640644
10/24/19 11:18 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,170
Jimbo
THF Trophy Hunter
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,170 |
I doubt you would want to go up against this lone guy, or a bunch of guys like him! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GLk1mMZqDc&t=762s
Thursday at 12:45 PM #33 Once i learned that i didn't "NEED" to kill something, and that if i did kill something all the fun stopped and work began, i was a much better hunter.
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
|