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Custer's Last Stand
#7568687
07/31/19 02:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,451
Dalroo
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I tend to find something of interest, research the crud out of it, satisfy my curiosity, then move to next topic. I've recently done this with the Battle of the Little Bighorn. I am a Civil War buff and had, of course, gotten an understanding of Custer's role in that conflict, but had never really followed him into the Indian Wars. Over the last few weeks I've read a number of papers on the battle, watched 4 or 5 documentaries, and reviewed maps of the battle. Fascinating.
I am oversimplifying, but everything I've watched or read goes into great detail of the battle plan and the errors in planning. TO ME, Custer's fundamental error was simply entering a battle without understanding he was up against overwhelming odds. Estimates are that the 7th Cavalry was at a 4:1 disadvantage. Secondarily, Custer had elected speed over firepower and set out on the expedition without Gatling guns or artillery - they slowed the columns down and he was afraid his adversary would escape if he were not able to keep up the chase. As a result, when forced into a defensive position, the 7th was mightily overrun.
Another thing that jumps out at me was the hubris of the US Army at the time, along with the pettiness of many of the officers. This was also the case during the early years of the Civil War resulting in the defeat of the US Army against the better led CSA. At Little Bighorn, Maj. Reno disliked Custer and Capt. Benteen, Benteen dislike Reno and Custer, and Custer was indifferent. Not a great way to enter a fight.
Finally, my perception was always that the battlefield was much smaller than it actually is. In reality it stretches for 5 miles or so along the river. There were actually several skirmishes, all resulting in victories by the combined Sioux, Cheyenne, Arapahos, and other tribes. Last Stand Hill simply got the press, much of it based on Custer's wife controlling the narrative for many years afterward - she actually lived into the 1930s.
When I was a kid, we did not learn much about the Indian Wars (at least not the factual side) in school. Most of my knowledge came in movies - not a great way to understand our history.
Dalroo Deep in the Heart of Texas How about that Brandon!
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568694
07/31/19 02:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 192
Okie Newton
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 192 |
It is a nice place to see. The gate was closed when I drove through there. I did get to see enough through the fence to say I saw the battle field at least. Nice store across the road from the battlefield.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Okie Newton]
#7568699
07/31/19 03:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,451
Dalroo
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It is a nice place to see. The gate was closed when I drove through there. I did get to see enough through the fence to say I saw the battle field at least. Nice store across the road from the battlefield. It is now on my list of places to visit for sure.
Dalroo Deep in the Heart of Texas How about that Brandon!
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568713
07/31/19 03:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,476
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
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Indian accounts is what’s funny, I read/was taught the Indians thought Custer and crew were drunk, arrogant to the death
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568733
07/31/19 03:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,410
Choctaw
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Dalroo, You may enjoy this. It is the Indian Wars Atlas published by the Combat Studies Institute, USA. No doubt mistakes were made but it is easy to second guess Custer (who had infinitely more combat experience in 19th Century warfare than any historian alive today). Drawing upon his experience (he had never lost a battle) his main concern was the Indians would try to escape. Custer's egregious error was ignoring the advice of his scouts who told him the village was much larger than anything he had yet encountered and that also his command had most likely been discovered. He then divided his forces in the face of the enemy without knowing their strength or disposition. I think his first inkling that the "Custer Luck" had finally run its course was when he got his first glimpse of the true size of village. By then it was too late. Reno was well and truly engaged in a death match and the Indians, who instead of running were looking for a fight. Reno was unable to extract himself and retreat in order from his scrap and at the same time Custer was unable to come to his support. Meanwhile, Benteen is out sulking a few miles away unaware of the danger Custer and the boys were in. Custer went looking for a big fight and found one. Atlas
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568758
07/31/19 04:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,467
bassfishinglawyer
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I always thought his biggest mistake was not taking automatic and semi-automatic weapons and plenty of ammo into battle.
But I heard the media was on his case and he didn't want to see another article about misuse of "assault rifles."
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568774
07/31/19 04:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 16,790
68rustbucket
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We visited the sight week before last. The Park Rangers give a half hour talk covering the officers involved, events leading up to the battle, and the battle. It was very interesting. Custers’ Indian scouts reported there were more Indians than they had bullets.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568803
07/31/19 05:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 416
Piper354
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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Went to the battlefield in 1999. Stood on Last Man Hill. Those guys never had a chance once they got off the horses. Just prarie grass, nothing else. It was just a matter of how long before they were all dead. I also saw a sign for the Fetterman Massacre. I'm a military history geek, mostly were my interest in owning/collecting/shooting guns came from.
Very moving emotional place to visit. Don't miss it if you have the chance.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568804
07/31/19 05:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 416
Piper354
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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I wish someone would make a high budget movie about the battle. Like Saving Private Ryan or the HBO series Band of Brothers. That type of historically accurate production.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568906
07/31/19 07:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 110,796
dogcatcher
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I served in the 7TH Cavalry. Over the years t reunions the discussions about Custer have been hot and heavy at several reunions with some of the guys having read and studied everything they could get their hands on. One guy had spent quite a few of his summers at the battle ground studying the layout of the land, the reports, and everything he could to find out why it happened the way it did. Unfortunately because of our ages our group has gotten a lot smaller.
But in my opinion and to put it in simple terms, it happened because of arrogance and ignorance of the Command Officers. Their knowledge of the enemy was not up to par, they under estimated the strength of the Indians.
Combat Infantryman, the ultimate hunter where the prey shoots back. _____________"Illegitimus non carborundum est"_______________
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Choctaw]
#7568908
07/31/19 07:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,451
Dalroo
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You may enjoy this. It is the Indian Wars Atlas published by the Combat Studies Institute, USA.
Choctaw, thanks. Will take a look.
Dalroo Deep in the Heart of Texas How about that Brandon!
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568951
07/31/19 08:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,455
Big Fitz
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Suggest reading A Terrible Glory by James Donnovan. I found it be be an excellent read and seems to be a very good historical account of what actually happened. Book Link
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568959
07/31/19 08:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 300
lmd59
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Feb 2010
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I visited the battlefield a couple years ago and heard the park ranger give a great account of the battle including the information that several other commanders did not care for Custer and didn't support him as quickly as they should have. What I did not know is that Custer was a military hero and outstanding leader during the Civil War. In fact, the table that Grant and Lee sat at when Lee surrendered is at the Custer Museum, a gift from Grant to Custer for his efforts during the Civil War.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7568961
07/31/19 08:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,708
603Country
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Custer obviously made some errors in judgement (understatement), but something I recently read may have given some insight into why he was so aggressive in his decision making. The article suggested that Custer was on a quest for promotion and respect. If he won this fight, he’d again be a hero, famous again, and promotable. He took the big risk and lost and took a lot of good men with him.
There are a few good books from the Indian perspective, one of them even giving names of about 4 warriors that arguably actually killed Custer.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7569056
07/31/19 11:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 1,539
fishdfly
Pro Tracker
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"My Life On The Plains" by Custer is a worth while read, his is much more educated and articulate than folks give him credit for. Most folks will need a dictionary to understand the words in it.
"Killing Custer" by James Welch is a very interesting read. He was an Indian and he was able to interview some of the relatives of the Indians who were at the battle.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7569090
08/01/19 12:05 AM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,059
coachwhite34
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Have you read this?
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7569175
08/01/19 02:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 12,156
kry226
The General
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The General
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 12,156 |
Here's a little background reading that may provide some insights into his rash decision-making at LBH. Custer was court martialed at Fort Leavenworth and the post commander now lives in the house in which the court martial was held. I've been stationed at Fort Leavenworth twice. It's a fascinating place! https://law.jrank.org/pages/2594/George-Armstrong-Custer-Court-Martial-1867.html
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Big Fitz]
#7569305
08/01/19 11:49 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,011
NDN98
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Suggest reading A Terrible Glory by James Donnovan. I found it be be an excellent read and seems to be a very good historical account of what actually happened. Book LinkI've read 3 different books about Custer/Little Big Horn and I found this one to be the great. I recommend too. Donovan also wrote a great book about the battle of the Alamo that I recommend as well, called The Blood of Heroes: The 13 Day Struggle for the Alamo and the Sacrifice That Forged a Nation.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Big Fitz]
#7569377
08/01/19 01:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,451
Dalroo
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Suggest reading A Terrible Glory by James Donnovan. I found it be be an excellent read and seems to be a very good historical account of what actually happened. Book LinkThanks for the suggestion - I downloaded on audible and will listen while road tripping this weekend!
Dalroo Deep in the Heart of Texas How about that Brandon!
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7569405
08/01/19 02:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,170
Jimbo
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Right now I'm reading "Early Settlers and Indian Fighters of Southwest Texas" by Andrew Jackson Sowell.
The book was written by the author in 1900 and he interviewed many people that were actually there or people who knew the intimate details of events. It's fascinating to me because I can relate to the areas mentioned and have actually set foot on many of the locals it talks about in the book. It's about the early days from about the 1830's to the 1870's when the settlers and Texas Rangers battled the Comanches, and Apaches, and the fight for Texas Independence. There are lots of details about the hardships and small skirmishes, that the settlers had to deal with on a constant basis, and stories long forgotten and are left out of the history books.
Thursday at 12:45 PM #33 Once i learned that i didn't "NEED" to kill something, and that if i did kill something all the fun stopped and work began, i was a much better hunter.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7569865
08/01/19 11:21 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 31,055
HWY_MAN
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Custer went in out gunned from the start, he certainly didn't have enough ammo for what he ran into. Going in with 22 to 24 rounds of 45-70 for the Trapdoor Springfield's against Lever action Winchesters. Nobody knows how many rounds the Indians carried are the numbers. I've heard that he and Rino had stashed the newer model Springfield's with the shorter barrel and they were the ones used in that battle. None of those rifles have ever shown up in a collection and I have a hard time believing the Indians lost them.
Yes! A Weatherby does kill them deader.
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7570398
08/02/19 05:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,451
Dalroo
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Suggest reading A Terrible Glory by James Donnovan. I found it be be an excellent read and seems to be a very good historical account of what actually happened. Book LinkThanks for the suggestion - I downloaded on audible and will listen while road tripping this weekend! Got through about 1/3 of book on Audible last night - very good!
Dalroo Deep in the Heart of Texas How about that Brandon!
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: Dalroo]
#7570414
08/02/19 05:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,455
Big Fitz
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Suggest reading A Terrible Glory by James Donnovan. I found it be be an excellent read and seems to be a very good historical account of what actually happened. Book LinkThanks for the suggestion - I downloaded on audible and will listen while road tripping this weekend! Got through about 1/3 of book on Audible last night - very good! Awesome. I think I'll re-read it soon.
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
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Re: Custer's Last Stand
[Re: NDN98]
#7575207
08/08/19 06:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,455
Big Fitz
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Suggest reading A Terrible Glory by James Donnovan. I found it be be an excellent read and seems to be a very good historical account of what actually happened. Book LinkI've read 3 different books about Custer/Little Big Horn and I found this one to be the great. I recommend too. Donovan also wrote a great book about the battle of the Alamo that I recommend as well, called The Blood of Heroes: The 13 Day Struggle for the Alamo and the Sacrifice That Forged a Nation. Thanks for the recommendation NDN98. I read The Blood of Heroes over the weekend. Great book!
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
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