why not just shoot a paper plate or balloon? does shooting a captive deer at long range make it any more gratifying?

deer breeders can call it a saturated market, everyone else is calling it declining demand. a lot of hunters of game of all kinds will agree that high fence "hunting" is a black eye for hunting as a whole. hunters divide themselves into categories, but antis and non hunters group them together. Not a good thing long or short term for the well being of hunting opportunity.

I think he was being factitious.

Not to long ago on here if you dared say a negative thing about high fences you got one of two responses.

"It's no different than low fence"

"Your just jealous because you can't afford it"

I'm glad those days are over and people are starting to see it for what it really is.

There's a difference between hunting wild deer on 10,000 acres of HF land and sitting on a corn feeder in a 20 acre pen to shoot a science experiment that was just unloaded out of a trailer.

No, the market is saturated. I can get pen raised deer for about 1/2 the price I could 10 years ago because the supply is there. In any south texas county there are 5-25 people with pens that have surplus to sell.

Yes, there is a huge difference. I have been to places that didn't have a deer on it until September when they took an order and brought in a load of pen raised bucks to be shot in October. Far cry from shooting a deer on the Hindes ranch or the Shiner that is 100% native genetics.



Comparing one to the other is like comparing the moon landing to riding a moped

No doubt there's a difference but the vast majority are not 10,000 acres. There are 3 different high fence ranches within 3 miles of my house, none of them are close to that big. Not sure what the average size HF place is but I bet it's nowhere close to 10k.

That’s correct. The majority of places that are HF are also manipulating the animals and/or habitat in ways that produce game that is neither natural nor wild. It’s the reason for the HF in the first place. Folks can say otherwise all they want and refer to 10,000 acre places all day, but that’s not the general reality of why the fences go up. Exceptions don’t change the rule.

Even though there has been some slight disagreements so far I find it interesting that no deer breeders have chimed in. I wish I could make my point with few words like tlk when he said “unfortunately I think he nailed it”. Woodduckhunter also summed up my feeling pretty well. I also tend to side with Nogalus on most of his points as well as most others.
Txtrophy has been the main contributor on this one so ill address that. I agree with most everything he says. Im familiar with TWAs stance of deer breeding but don’t see this article coming from them. It is a smear tactic from the author. I agree its biased and not all correct facts and unfairly paints hunting with a broad brush. I don’t think it was his intention to write an overall account of hunting. He was likely repulsed by what he found and wanted anyone that would read it to know about it. As far the CWD issue im not ignorant but I may be uninformed. TXtro please enlighten me on why deer being confined in tight quarters is not a huge reason for CWD.
PERSONALLY I have hunted a large high fence ranch many years ago and i don’t feel there is inherently anything wrong with them. Everyone is talking about ethics and that is the main issue imo. My ethics tells me that deer should be hunted in a fair chase environment. Personal ethics will determine what fair chase is. My ethics tells me that at some point a HF becomes too small. How small is too small is once again up to personal ethics. “Canned hunts” and “put and take” personally disgust me but that’s just me personally. Your own ethics will determine how you feel about them and everyone has rights to feel as they do. A little side note I will offer as an example I noticed a package hunt advertised that said no lodging or meals provided but implied a very high success rate expected. Maybe im wrong but the look that gave me was that the hunt would be so easy and so quick that they weren’t even gonna offer a cup of coffee. Once again, someone mentioned “times are changing” and now days its all about “instant gratification” and “to each his own” and I AGREE with all that BUT its still a BAD LOOK, IMO.
My main takeaway is that it DOESN’T MATTER a lot if the article was biased or fact based or unfairly painted a picture of hunting. Whats important is that “we”(hunters as a whole) have an ugly underbelly and its being exposed and we don’t like it. Call a spade a spade. We have to admit theres an issue before we can or will deal with it. Yes, TxTro, we are talking about a VERY small % of hunters and ranches but the minority is hurting the future of the majority, IMO. I am a strong advocate of private property rights so its tough for me to tell a deer breeder what to do with his property. If hes pushing the limits on some of the key issues and hes also rich and just doing it for ego then I hate hes hurting the nonhunting publics view of hunters but hes got the right. For the deer breeders that are really doing it the “right way”(no I cant define that) and scratching and clawing to make a living and keep their family land in tact then I guess I have to just turn my head and hope it works out.
It will probably fall on deaf ears but my plead would be for anyone making a living off of what MANY would consider unethical hunting practices that you consider policing yourselves. No I cant define “unethical hunting practices” but it’s a big $^%##% elephant in the room and if you cant see it then there is no reasoning with you so I will likely not respond to any comments on that.
The very best news I have gotten out of this thread so far is that evidently the market is being affected by these issues. My next and last plead will be to the “hunters” that are paying for what MANY would consider unethical hunting. I may need armor on this one so let me clarify. I am NOT against High fence hunting and I am NOT against package hunts and I am for sure NOT against Trophy deer management or Trophy hunting. There is just a very gray line that most of us draw at different points and we all have the right to draw it where we want so please do so. Travis drew a line at the Alamo that helped assure us that right. DRAW IT, THEN LIVE WITH IT.

Reasonable post above, but isn't going to change the way anyone thinks. If someone has the money and wants something, what you think about it isn't going to stop or fulfill that want, so they will do what they want regardless. canned hunts are there because we have too much money as a society and some feel the need to spend it on big antlers in a quick manner. If the money isn't there, the hunts go away. O&G made this possible in TX. The reason the canned hunts are going down in price is because the number of "stupid" rich people is getting smaller due to the O&G prices. When prices go back up and more people have "stupid money" then the prices of canned hunts will go back up. Pure and simple, its an affluent first world problem of people having "stupid money".

What defines stupid money...that's for each to decide. For some its low 6 figures, for some its low 7, for some its high 5 figures. Every person determines what their stupid level is when they have it because in their mind they have so much it is worth blowing money on stupid stuff

What about low-fenced properties in the MLD III Program? They have to manipulate the habitat and do other things every year (to stay in compliance) to enhance their property for the wildlife. Most are also feeding protein year-round, culling inferior deer and trying to keep their sex ratios in check while trying to grow the biggest bucks they can. Is that natural and wild?

I completely agree with the canned pen shoots being unethical. I disagree with the broad brush you used to paint all high-fenced ranches in the same light.

I specifically did not paint them all in the same light.

Even though for me personally, once their movement is restricted by artificial means, I’m out. But I get many don’t feel the same as me.

I can respect your point of view completely if you don't want to hunt in a high fence. its a personal ETHICAL choice made by the hunter. No problem with it.

I will also agree that high fences give most places the means to artificially inflate the numbers of game that would be un sustainable on a low fence property, and is one of the benefits to a high fence. This can also be done on a low fence property thru supplemental feed. The hill country region is an area that has a population that is by and large above what TPWD recommends as a healthy carrying capacity, so it can happen naturally as well, but does have its consequences.

I'll start with the CWD issue. The state has had CWD in the trans pecos and the panhandle, far away from most high fence operations. People are claiming that CWD in whitetail deer outside those areas is caused and spread by deer being raised in captivity. My arguments ( and there have been many on this ) is this:

The original deer they found on pattersons ranch did not die of CWD. It bludgeoned itself to death. it was a perfectly healthy 2 year old buck, that happened to be infected with CWD. Texas has approx. 600,000 deer hit the ground each year from hunters. If you tested every single one, do you think they would find a few with CWD? My guess is yes, you would. But my belief is deer are dying from a bullet, getting hit by a car, dying of pneumonia, blue tongue or EHD long before CWD kills them and we are not finding them, because we aren't testing for them on a widespread basis. hard to find something you don't test for. I believe its naturally occurring and has always been here, not something that is a creation of Deer Breeding.

CWD is spread thru mucus, so deer in a pen have a risk of contamination thru close feeding areas, such as feed troughs and protein feeders. Alas, they also have these same conditions in non-confined spaces eating at a protein feeder or trough. That's why northern states like Michigan have problems with it, deer herd up in the winter and are in close proximity to one another and the infection is spread while they are feeding....same holds true for elk and mule deer in the west.

I'm not saying CWD doesn't exist....I'm saying deer breeders didn't start it and they aren't spreading it.


Now for the rest of the response. I agree there is a line, somewhere, that falls between fair chase and not fair chase. Its of my opinion that there is little difference in shooting a deer under a feeder on a 1k acre low fence place vs. a 1k acre high fence place. They are being fed, coming to feed, etc. I also don't buy into to the theory they don't have a chance to escape. Unless they are tied to a tree or you are hunting in an open cattle pasture, I've yet to be on a ranch that a deer could not escape immediate danger by running much more than 100 yards. I also don't buy into the common theory that a high fence all of a sudden makes deer tame. I've been on countless low fence places that have little to no hunting pressure where the deer will look at you right off the side of the road and sometimes chase the vehicle like a cow coming to cubes. But yes, small, put and take places are not for me and I agree they give legitimate hunting a black eye. This goes not only for whitetail but also exotics like "trophy ram" hunts you see advertised. Animals imo deserve more respect than that.

Its a common misconception that deer become dumb and docile when a fence goes up. They don't know they are confined. as for stocker deer, I've known breeders who talk to their deer, hand feed them and yes, they act like livestock when they are released. I also know breeders that don't talk to their deer, hand feed them or treat them like pets that are wild like any other native born deer and act like that when they open the gates. So its subjective as to who is doing the raising.


I agree 100% though that at some point the high fenced acreage becomes "too restrictive" but that has a lot to do with the terrain of a place and is subjective. I also agree that hunting has become more ego driven that it needs to be ( not saying it doesnt' need to have some ego behind it, as I believe ego and adventure go hand in hand a lot of times ) and that put and take, roll them in and roll them out quick serve trophy hunts have become common place. But, animals are more plentiful high and low fence than they once were and it doesent' take a weeks time anymore to have a successful hunt. I have a small low fence ranch I can leave my house and go to right now, and with the utmost certainly I have hunting any place, have a 30+" axis on the ground by dusk. Reason being, they are left alone, have food, water and shelter and I know they will be there.


You won't every have a truly united front when it comes to hunting. Some factions will say high fences are bad while dropping deer over a spin feeder. Some people say feeding deer is unsporting while shooting deer over a wheat field. Some people think unless you hunt on public land you aren't a real hunter. its just like its a never ending argument.

It’s enclosing them that’s the game changer for me. A deer can travel over a 1000 acres in literally a matter of minutes if they are on the move. Seen it many times. They also relocate to different areas quite often during the year. Especially mature bucks. Have seen that many times also. Sharing trail cam photos with several “neighbors” we cover many square miles. It’s nothing for a buck to be on my neighbor’s place 4 miles away for weeks and then show up on my place and camp out for days or weeks. All kinds of movement happens over large areas. And this is wooded east TX where they don’t have to move a lot for food most years.

1000 acres (or even larger) HF may or may not be micro-manipulation from an immediate ‘escape’ or ‘tameness’ standpoint - but it’s darn sure macro-manipulation by keeping the deer confined in an area from which they cannot escape.

If you know a big buck is there, you can hunt every day knowing he is still there within the confines of the HF. That simply is not true in an unrestricted LF situation. He could be still on your place or he could be long gone.

That’s the game changer as far as hunting is concerned for me. That’s why many don’t consider it fair chase. It seems so obvious to me I don’t see why there’s even arguments about it, but apparently many either don’t see it or the big rack is more important to them than the means by which it is obtained.

I’m trying to get better about arguing about it, but I’m not going to ever be shy about stating my opinion and why I have it.

NP, as a Texas deer hunter for the past 48 years, I certainly appreciate and respect your position on fair chase and high fences. Stay true to your convictions, brother

I guess this is for the trendy........the trend being people can't mind their own business. Landowners can stack chickens on top of each other in a enclosed barn and never let them leave until they go to the grocery store. Force feed livestock and not let it roam. Even pull unborn calves from the womb and sell them in the grocery store as a delicacy.......no one says a word about it, especially if they like cheap chicken and veal in their diet.

But then a landowner decides to have wild game as his live stock, and people can't mind their own business. A hunter decides to hunt the way of his choosing, and people can't mind their own business.

I'm a very blessed man........you stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours....

I will say this.

Most people I have talked to that have a negative opinion of deer breeders have never been to a breeding operation or only been to one or two.


Just like the anti’s crying about killing elephants and have never even seen one in the wild

I have opinions about lots of things I have never personally experienced. That’s what reading, educating oneself and reasoning is for. And nowadays YouTube. (So does everyone - on a variety of subjects. Few have actually met the political candidates they vote for or against, for example.)

So unlike the antis and elephants analogy, I try to be accurately educated and not just propaganda-educated (which is not really educated at all).

That said, I have personal experience with least 3 breeder operations. It’s not really rocket science - just a livestock operation pretty much as described in the article. They are breeding for desired big antler traits just like cattlemen breed for desired beef, hardiness, etc. traits.

Is there something I’m missing?

i don't think anyone against high fences or deer breeding are also against private property rights. If someone wants to raise deer in small pens, release them into a little bigger pen, and someone wants to pay money to go "hunt" it, they can do that. But what this smaller % of people do not realize is that they draw a lot of un needed attention to themselves that inadvertently gets advertised. which will in the long term affects all hunters. once again, the ways of deer hunting are its own enemy.

having wild game as your livestock??? animals are one or the other, not both

no, but you have the knowledge to form an educated opinion. that's the difference

On a side note, I see Botswana opened elephant hunting again. So there’s always hope.

I don’t hunt elephants but that will save a lot of their lives.

"people can't mind their own business" Amen!