Not upset.... mine doesn’t shoot one hole groups and I am Ok with that. It would be awesome if it did though.

I've been shooting rifles a LONNNG time. I've been reloading for many years. If you say your AR-15 rifle shoots .1 moa consistently, I will say no it doesn't. I've had guys tell me their high end bolt rifle is a legit 1/4 moa rifle. Then when we get on the range that 1/4 moa rifle becomes 3/4 to 1 moa really quick. A one time,3 shot group of .1 moa does NOT make it a consistent .1 moa rifle, which you are claiming. Again like I offered last time this came up. I will pay you to come out and shoot a 5 shot group that is .2 moa, which is double your claim. That is 5 rounds inside of .209" at 100 yards (.2 moa x 1.047" = .209). It doesn't up set me at all on your claim. I also laugh when a shooter makes these kind of claims and calls their rifle "consistent" .1 moa. Like last time, I'll pay you to come out and shoot a .2 moa group. What's it worth to you? I'll give you 5 to 1 odds. If you shoot a .2 moa, 5 shot group, I will pay you 5 to 1 odds (max of $500). If you want to put up $100, and you make your .2 moa 5 shot group, I'll pay you $500. $50, payout $250. I want skin in the game on both sides. If someone offered me this deal and my rifle could perform, I'd do it in a heart beat. But I like to gamble, and I like to shoot, and I'm a pretty good shot. So, what you think? Then we'll drink a beer and laugh about it. But I want to see some .1 to .2 moa groups!

I'll give you $100 to let me watch you shoot a 5 shot, 100yd, .1 MOA group. I don't care if you have any skin in the game or not. No feelings hurt, no grudge. This is something I have to see to believe. If it happens, I'll man up and apologize for calling BS. Until then, I stand by my statement.

So have I.

You're talking about unrelated things Chad. A shooter's ability/truthfulness isn't the same as the rifle's capability. You obviously have a lot of skill and experience so I'm a little confused why you are combining them. Assuming someone is being honest about what groups they've gotten, they might be having a bad day when you see them shoot, or get nervous because you're watching them. That's on the shooter though. Like I pointed out last time, this is a logic failure on your part. I could have a 10 second race car, but if I miss a shift it's not going to go that fast. It doesn't mean that it's not a 10 second car; it means I goofed that one time. Yeah, I know you're next go-to is barrels wearing out, but be honest with yourself. You know that unless you have some kind of crazy barrel burning caliber, it takes thousands of rounds to see a difference in accuracy.

I know I'm an amazing shot up to a point and can load good ammo. For some reason that bothers you. I have noticed anytime someone has success with hand loads you tend to get a little defensive. I think it's because you have a vested interest being that you own a business selling custom ammo. I simply don't care enough to have this same argument over and over. I've posted pics of a .1 moa AR before to prove they exist. I'm very happy to share my knowledge (which is all I was trying to do before you jump on me) and spread our sport, but you're going to have to trust that I find no benefit in lying about the results I've gotten.

No one is upset about your success of shooting and loading. I applaud ANYONE that can load and shoot that well. Both require lots of skills, concentration, and knowledge about what they are doing. This is nothing more than a "call-out". Watch the Discovery show where they street race. Guys that compete against each other, every week, call out each other, agree on a bet, plop down the money, shake hands, race, and the winner gets congratulated. No butt hurt involved. Just men, with a spine, having a friendly competition.

You would get a vacant platform to shoot from, no one beside you, no one talking, just like golf. A 30X spotter watching impacts, and a U.S. Made Starrett, analog caliper measuring the group.

I'll put it to you this way, if I'm ever up in your neck of the woods I'd be more than happy to stop by and see how I stack up free of charge unless you want a friendly wager. I really like your attitude about it. Frankly, the only reason I haven't signed up for your annual shooting comp, is that I don't feel comfortable using a high power scope where I have to figure out moa calculations. I know it's not complicated, but I'm still in the very early learning process. I'd rather take a class or two before.

The big thing I don't get about loading is why people get so wrapped up in every minute detail. I get great groups using whatever brass I pull out of the bag, and in the case of the 7-08 I don't even know how many different brands of cases I've resized. Primers are used based on whatever box is closest (correct type of course). The only difference I ever found was when I switched to magnum primers when loading 6.8. Maybe that's ignorance on my part.

Ballistic calculators do the calculations, MOA or Mils. That is one of many things I teach one on one. It is a ton of information in 8 to 9 hours. Reading wind is the tricky part.

The reason people get wrapped up in any minute detail, is because they matter. Various brass head-stamps can, and often do, have various thicknesses. This changes the powder column, and changes internal ballistics (pressures) which will in turn change external ballistics, velocities, and points of impacts. Depending on the desired level of consistency, will dictate the time spent on certain details. Bench Rest shooters tend to have to hit even smaller than I do. Weighing bullets, weighing brass, and weighing primers is not something I need to do. Changing primers can change internal ballistics, as well, and again changes external.

Based on your last response, and your lack of attention to detail, further suggests you did get lucky with two .1 MOA geoups from two rifles. My tightest shooting bolt action rifle, that I go through much trouble to make perfect ammo (powder charges consistent to .02 gr), is a .223 A.I. and I wouldn't claim a consistent .1 MOA out of it. It has done it more than once, but I still won't claim it to be one every day.

I have no problem at all with ANYTHING you have posted at all, except the quoted comment above. I applaud all the helpful comments for shooters to help them out with good info, like I also try to do. But I don't think you understand the difference here. You may have posted pics of a once in a lifetime, 3 shot, .1 moa group. But that does NOT in no way form or fashion make the entire AR rifle a consistent .1 moa rifle, like you are claiming. If you shot 10, 5 shot groups and they were .1 moa, then guess what, you have a .1 moa rifle. One lucky group does not make it a .1 moa rifle. You see the difference? That's what you are not the understanding. Until then, I will call you out every F'in time that you do NOT have a .1 moa rifle. You (may) have a .1 moa, 3 shot group, and that's all.

If you need to shoot a few groups, and we'll take the best one, then how many groups do you need to shoot for a .1 moa group to count? But guess what, if it takes you 5 groups to get a .2 moa group, what does that mean? You proved my point. It's not a freakin' .1 moa rifle. End of story.

Would a gun that had shot say a .25 inch group twice with different shooters classify as a 1/4 moa gun?

Many publications; "Field and Stream", "American Rifleman", ect. use the benchmark of five 5 shot groups. However, I know many barrels are hot after 3. So then we may need eight 3 shot groups on the thin barreled rifles.

What you don’t understand sir, is that until/unless something breaks or the barrel gets worn out, if it does it once it’ll be able to repeat it. According to you it must be able to repeat to be classified as such. This is logic, pure and simple. A rifle isn’t going to decide to change how it shoots each time (I’m still going to use that excuse though ). You also don’t know how many times I’ve gotten those groups.

Like last time, I'll pay you to come out and shoot a .2 moa group. What's it worth to you? I'll give you 5 to 1 odds. If you shoot a .2 moa, 5 shot group, I will pay you 5 to 1 odds (max of $500). If you want to put up $100, and you make your .2 moa 5 shot group, I'll pay you $500. $50, payout $250. I want skin in the game on both sides. If someone offered me this deal and my rifle could perform, I'd do it in a heart beat. But I like to gamble, and I like to shoot, and I'm a pretty good shot. So, what you think? Then we'll drink a beer and laugh about it. But I want to see some .1 to .2 moa groups!

Dunning- Kruger effect?

Yes, the early stage.