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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202084
06/19/18 04:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610
JTPinTX
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610 |
Handy little truck gun. 16" Encore 223, shorter with the can than my daughters 18" CZ-527 without the can on it. FullSizeR by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/156517515@N04/][/url], on Flickr
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202087
06/19/18 04:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759 |
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202089
06/19/18 04:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,317
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
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Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,317 |
If I had your number I'd sell it to spam bots!! You can have my number bro. It's 903-513-GO-F-URSLEF-KYLE
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: J.G.]
#7202090
06/19/18 04:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,570
garyrapp55
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,570 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations. ARs are not hunting rifles according to some here. Poor cave dwellers, froze in the winter, sweatin all summer, and strugglin to kill a pile of hogs before they are out of sight. You should rescue them.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7202110
06/19/18 05:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,538
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,538 |
RR, no, the powder I use is not listed in your results. The powders you listed cover a very broad array, and include some powders you would not use for a 308. I KNOW that some of those powders would never be used. I just let QL do what QL does. What I would like to know is what powder is going to give significant gains in a shorter barrel. While it's possible to use a powder so slow that you don't get the full effect from it, I have never seen QL results that show significant velocity gains over the powders that yield the highest velocities in a longer barrel using a faster powder in a shorter barrel. I can see a faster powder being a better choice in a short barrel due to reduced flash and blast, but higher velocities just don't happen as far as I know...at least not in barrels between 26 and 16 inches. In an 8- or 10-inch barrel---maybe, that's not something I have explored.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202166
06/19/18 05:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,992
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,992 |
Ok, so let's "calculate" using QL. And I say calculate, because QL gets you in the ball park, as you probably know. (My field data and field results show an even better picture with velocity gains with faster powder in the same weapon).
Varget is a great powder for the 308. It is commonly used for maximum velocity in the 308. To pick up speeds in a short barrel, shooters often want a lighter bullet, so let's use the 125 grain Hornady SST bullet I have been shooting. I have a powder I use for this lighter bullet for my SBR or shorter barrel rifles, especially for AR's shooting suppressed. My "mystery powder" is much faster burning than Varget. Let's run the numbers.
In a 22", 308 Win bolt gun with 125 SST at 62K psi, I "calculated" 50.1 gains of VARGET shows 3111 fps and 95.7% burn rate (4.3% unburned). Put this same load in a 16" barrel, and you get 2886 fps, and 92.8% burn. So, there is about 7% of unburned powder coming back into the action. In an AR-10 platform, the gas port is 12" away and would have 17,300+ PSI at the gas port.
Now, if you run my "mystery powder" at 62K psi and 125 grain SST, I'm using much less powder than the 50.1 grains, in a 22" barrel I show 3043 fps, 99.8% burn rate. In a 16" barrel, I'm "calculating" 2841 fps and 98.8% burn rate. But my field data is running another 80-100 fps faster than this QL calculation is, which tells me it's even more efficient than that. And at the gas port 12" away from the chamber, the pressure is 14,900 psi, which is 2400 psi less than the Varget load.
What does all this mean? A faster burning powder engineered for short barrel rifles will have more velocity than a slower burning powder, less gas port pressure, use much less powder, and have a more complete powder burn for keeping your weapon much cleaner. We have already seen these results in our AR's from our night hunting. It's a win win.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Brother in-law]
#7202189
06/19/18 06:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,604
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
duck & cover
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duck & cover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,604 |
Depends on if I am the buyer or the seller??? seriously it is hard to tell, market is so small there's not much to base it on, I gave 250, I've seen some go to 350, a true 24c with the stock intact wouldbe 300+
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7202227
06/19/18 06:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,359
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,359 |
Ok, so let's "calculate" using QL. And I say calculate, because QL gets you in the ball park, as you probably know. (My field data and field results show an even better picture with velocity gains with faster powder in the same weapon).
Varget is a great powder for the 308. It is commonly used for maximum velocity in the 308. To pick up speeds in a short barrel, shooters often want a lighter bullet, so let's use the 125 grain Hornady SST bullet I have been shooting. I have a powder I use for this lighter bullet for my SBR or shorter barrel rifles, especially for AR's shooting suppressed. My "mystery powder" is much faster burning than Varget. Let's run the numbers.
In a 22", 308 Win bolt gun with 125 SST at 62K psi, I "calculated" 50.1 gains of VARGET shows 3111 fps and 95.7% burn rate (4.3% unburned). Put this same load in a 16" barrel, and you get 2886 fps, and 92.8% burn. So, there is about 7% of unburned powder coming back into the action. In an AR-10 platform, the gas port is 12" away and would have 17,300+ PSI at the gas port.
Now, if you run my "mystery powder" at 62K psi and 125 grain SST, I'm using much less powder than the 50.1 grains, in a 22" barrel I show 3043 fps, 99.8% burn rate. In a 16" barrel, I'm "calculating" 2841 fps and 98.8% burn rate. But my field data is running another 80-100 fps faster than this QL calculation is, which tells me it's even more efficient than that. And at the gas port 12" away from the chamber, the pressure is 14,900 psi, which is 2400 psi less than the Varget load.
What does all this mean? A faster burning powder engineered for short barrel rifles will have more velocity than a slower burning powder, less gas port pressure, use much less powder, and have a more complete powder burn for keeping your weapon much cleaner. We have already seen these results in our AR's from our night hunting. It's a win win.
There you go with all that real world range data, again.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202267
06/19/18 06:59 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 44,262
Stub
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 44,262 |
"Size Matters, Smaller is Better" Thats what he said
“I never forget a face—but in your case, I’ll be glad to make an exception.†—Groucho Marx
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Stub]
#7202273
06/19/18 07:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,993
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,993 |
"Size Matters, Smaller is Better" Thats what he said
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Stub]
#7202275
06/19/18 07:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65,632
SnakeWrangler
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65,632 |
"Size Matters, Smaller is Better" Thats what he said
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ccoker]
#7202447
06/19/18 09:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,615
TexFlip
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,615 |
my little friend with my son from a few weeks ago.. he was like "dad, I REALLY like this gun" He has a tendency to try to make my toys his own.. I was in his room last night and commented on how 3 of my guitars ended up there! How's that new ammo perform?
Just to make sure that it is done thoroughly, I go both ways.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202483
06/19/18 09:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,760
ccoker
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,760 |
see dead pigs first one, DRT second one, hit a little low in the neck ran 30 yards
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7202506
06/19/18 10:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,538
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,538 |
Ok, so let's "calculate" using QL. And I say calculate, because QL gets you in the ball park, as you probably know. (My field data and field results show an even better picture with velocity gains with faster powder in the same weapon).
Varget is a great powder for the 308. It is commonly used for maximum velocity in the 308. To pick up speeds in a short barrel, shooters often want a lighter bullet, so let's use the 125 grain Hornady SST bullet I have been shooting. I have a powder I use for this lighter bullet for my SBR or shorter barrel rifles, especially for AR's shooting suppressed. My "mystery powder" is much faster burning than Varget. Let's run the numbers.
In a 22", 308 Win bolt gun with 125 SST at 62K psi, I "calculated" 50.1 gains of VARGET shows 3111 fps and 95.7% burn rate (4.3% unburned). Put this same load in a 16" barrel, and you get 2886 fps, and 92.8% burn. So, there is about 7% of unburned powder coming back into the action. In an AR-10 platform, the gas port is 12" away and would have 17,300+ PSI at the gas port.
Now, if you run my "mystery powder" at 62K psi and 125 grain SST, I'm using much less powder than the 50.1 grains, in a 22" barrel I show 3043 fps, 99.8% burn rate. In a 16" barrel, I'm "calculating" 2841 fps and 98.8% burn rate. But my field data is running another 80-100 fps faster than this QL calculation is, which tells me it's even more efficient than that. And at the gas port 12" away from the chamber, the pressure is 14,900 psi, which is 2400 psi less than the Varget load.
What does all this mean? A faster burning powder engineered for short barrel rifles will have more velocity than a slower burning powder, less gas port pressure, use much less powder, and have a more complete powder burn for keeping your weapon much cleaner. We have already seen these results in our AR's from our night hunting. It's a win win.
Well, that's interesting. I have run the two scenarios and was surprised at some of what I saw...I never noticed some of the jockeying around you see further down the list when barrel lengths are changed, so I'll concede at least a part of the point. But, the powders that will give TOP velocities (provided you can get enough of it into the case) stay at the top of the list with either barrel length with only minor variances in the order of velocity yield. I guess that just doesn't hold up when you get down to the more "intermediate" velocity yields. I also see that taking gas port pressure into account will pretty much force the omission of some of those top velocity producers (but an adjustable gas block might open some doors if you're willing to put up with the extra blast and flash of the slow burners). Thanks for the explanation.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202525
06/19/18 10:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,992
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,992 |
You're welcome! Cramming a bunch of slower powder into a case at max pressure will still yield high velocities. But at some point there becomes an issue when you go to a shorter barrel and shoot it in an AR suppressed. Those rounds get a rifle VERY dirty real quick. Honestly, it's a trial and error at the range to see what works and applying it to the field.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202558
06/19/18 11:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,538
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,538 |
Absolutely agree with that. QL can't predict or calculate accuracy, but it sure is handy for harvesting hunches and staying occupied when you have time to kill. I can't find a "suppressor fouling" column in my QL either.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: RiverRider]
#7202602
06/19/18 11:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,599
kmon11
junior
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junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,599 |
Absolutely agree with that. QL can't predict or calculate accuracy, but it sure is handy for harvesting hunches and staying occupied when you have time to kill. I can't find a "suppressor fouling" column in my QL either. Sounds like a request for feature
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7202691
06/20/18 01:53 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,217
Korean Redneck
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,217 |
I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! That's what my ex used to tell up until the day she left.
I'm a dude who likes long barrels!
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Korean Redneck]
#7202696
06/20/18 01:57 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,993
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,993 |
I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! That's what my ex used to tell up until the day she left. Man, I hate to stereotype but.....Asian
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202719
06/20/18 02:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,317
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
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Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,317 |
I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! That's what my ex used to tell up until the day she left. Man, I hate to stereotype but.....Asian
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: KRoyal]
#7202818
06/20/18 10:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65,632
SnakeWrangler
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65,632 |
I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! That's what my ex used to tell up until the day she left. Man, I hate to stereotype but.....Asian Korean Redneck - Asian.....get it.......
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202928
06/20/18 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,317
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
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Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,317 |
Oh I get it! I've met him at one of the THF shooting comps. That was pretty funny but didn't wan to laugh.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: KRoyal]
#7202932
06/20/18 01:16 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 28,146
skinnerback
THF Celebrity Chef
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THF Celebrity Chef
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 28,146 |
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7203001
06/20/18 02:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610
JTPinTX
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610 |
So, taking this into consideration, what powder(s) would you recommend trying in a 14.5" piston driven AR (suppressed, SiCo Omega), with 62-65 grain bullets? I am currently using Benchmark, LC brass, and CCI 450 primers. It works pretty good, but could be cleaner. Ok, so let's "calculate" using QL. And I say calculate, because QL gets you in the ball park, as you probably know. (My field data and field results show an even better picture with velocity gains with faster powder in the same weapon).
Varget is a great powder for the 308. It is commonly used for maximum velocity in the 308. To pick up speeds in a short barrel, shooters often want a lighter bullet, so let's use the 125 grain Hornady SST bullet I have been shooting. I have a powder I use for this lighter bullet for my SBR or shorter barrel rifles, especially for AR's shooting suppressed. My "mystery powder" is much faster burning than Varget. Let's run the numbers.
In a 22", 308 Win bolt gun with 125 SST at 62K psi, I "calculated" 50.1 gains of VARGET shows 3111 fps and 95.7% burn rate (4.3% unburned). Put this same load in a 16" barrel, and you get 2886 fps, and 92.8% burn. So, there is about 7% of unburned powder coming back into the action. In an AR-10 platform, the gas port is 12" away and would have 17,300+ PSI at the gas port.
Now, if you run my "mystery powder" at 62K psi and 125 grain SST, I'm using much less powder than the 50.1 grains, in a 22" barrel I show 3043 fps, 99.8% burn rate. In a 16" barrel, I'm "calculating" 2841 fps and 98.8% burn rate. But my field data is running another 80-100 fps faster than this QL calculation is, which tells me it's even more efficient than that. And at the gas port 12" away from the chamber, the pressure is 14,900 psi, which is 2400 psi less than the Varget load.
What does all this mean? A faster burning powder engineered for short barrel rifles will have more velocity than a slower burning powder, less gas port pressure, use much less powder, and have a more complete powder burn for keeping your weapon much cleaner. We have already seen these results in our AR's from our night hunting. It's a win win.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7204660
06/22/18 02:08 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,040
Vern1
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,040 |
Kinda tricky and LOUD to shoot out of a blind but is hell off the tractor, 4 wheeler or Mule.
Cheers, Vern1 Texans since The Old 300 in 1824 NRA Lifetime Member
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