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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7032800
01/10/18 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,731
Jgraider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,731 |
Beautiful buck. This is exactly why waiting until a buck reaches maturity is usually the best practice. There is no substitute for age.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: Jgraider]
#7032816
01/10/18 04:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 40,632
redchevy
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
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Beautiful buck. This is exactly why waiting until a buck reaches maturity is usually the best practice. There is no substitute for age. While true... there is also no substitute for genetics... this deer just happens to be a really nice looking buck that is on a property that I'm assuming kills culls before maturity. If I was HF I would be more interested in culling, but even now readily identifiable inferior deer are shot. I find it odd that many who say let deer mature, don't shoot spikes are in favor of shooting no brow deer.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7032826
01/10/18 04:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,294
8pointdrop
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,294 |
From a genetics standpoint waiting until culls are mature makes no sense. Culling for numbers and CC is a little different but even then I'm still after the inferior deer first.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7032832
01/10/18 04:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,608
Texas Dan
THF Celebrity
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) that point to the likelihood of a successful end, are common in all walks of life. Branched antlers in young bucks appears to be a good and valid KPI.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: redchevy]
#7032834
01/10/18 04:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 16,775
QuitShootinYoungBucks
THF Celebrity
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Beautiful buck. This is exactly why waiting until a buck reaches maturity is usually the best practice. There is no substitute for age. While true... there is also no substitute for genetics... this deer just happens to be a really nice looking buck that is on a property that I'm assuming kills culls before maturity. If I was HF I would be more interested in culling, but even now readily identifiable inferior deer are shot. I find it odd that many who say let deer mature, don't shoot spikes are in favor of shooting no brow deer. If a deer has no brows his 2nd or 3rd set of antlers, it is extremely likely that he will never have them (or they will be very small). Culling this trait is very common. I don't think anybody is talking about culling yearling bucks that have no brows.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7032849
01/10/18 04:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,605
fouzman
OP
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,605 |
We culled a two year old 5 point with only one brow tine back in November. He has 3 and 4 yr old relatives with the same genetic trait. I want to kill both of them but haven't been able to locate either. Amazing how hard it is to find a specific deer on 1,800 high-fenced acres with very heavy cover. What's even more amazing to me is we run as many as 24 cameras and may only get a couple photos of a buck each year. Just like the three year old above. We had that one photo from August and never saw him this season until these most recent trailcam photos. Fortunately, we have until the end of February to get it done. In fact, we still have 3 or 4 culls we need to kill, if we can just see them. But this three year old isn't going to be one of them! We've killed six bucks so far. Five culls and one trophy. We have one 7.5 yr old trophy we're still trying to kill plus 3 or 4 culls to put our total buck harvest at 10. Doe harvest will be 20, so that we can keep our buck/doe ratio above 1:1, on the buck side.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7032954
01/10/18 05:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,908
jskin
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,908 |
You guys that say let a deer mature before culling, is there no fear of him turning out to be cull in the end and the has fathered several deer of same genetics during those years he walked? I'm just asking as I'm trying to figure this out myself. And are you saying let them reach 4.5-5.5 years of age?
"While we are postponing, life speeds by"
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7033067
01/10/18 07:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 482
cullbuck
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 482 |
I dare not stir the controversy of what characteristics should be used for culling but the sooner a cull can be identified and removed from the herd the better. Culls not only produce other bucks with inferior genetics but also produce does with those genetics and you can't distinguish them from good does.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#7033385
01/10/18 11:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,063
Eland Slayer
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,063 |
.....this buck was a 6pt w/ a drop his first year..... not exactly roll of the dice keeping him around, even w/ the small tine length
ANY branching of the antlers during the second year, however small, seems to be the key indication of a 1-1/2 year old buck that should be allowed to walk. No question, the ability to share photos and discuss them has made a significant impact on what we are learning about buck development. It has also given us the opportunity to validate the accuracy of what biologists have been preaching to us. In my opinion, no 1.5 year old buck should EVER be killed, regardless of antler development (or lack thereof). There are simply too many variables that can cause a good buck to grow a crappy first set of antlers. If you have a healthy buck:doe ratio they won't be breeding anyway....let them get to 2.5 before making the decision to cull.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7033518
01/11/18 12:54 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,190
ChrisB
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,190 |
I sure like seeing pictures of them south Texas giants. That's some special land down there.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7033910
01/11/18 11:56 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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I don’t think anyone would “cull” a 1 1/2 year old 6 point with a drop/fishhook.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7034351
01/11/18 05:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 924
lsbrim
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 924 |
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: Eland Slayer]
#7034367
01/11/18 05:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 40,632
redchevy
THF Celebrity
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.....this buck was a 6pt w/ a drop his first year..... not exactly roll of the dice keeping him around, even w/ the small tine length
ANY branching of the antlers during the second year, however small, seems to be the key indication of a 1-1/2 year old buck that should be allowed to walk. No question, the ability to share photos and discuss them has made a significant impact on what we are learning about buck development. It has also given us the opportunity to validate the accuracy of what biologists have been preaching to us. In my opinion, no 1.5 year old buck should EVER be killed, regardless of antler development (or lack thereof). There are simply too many variables that can cause a good buck to grow a crappy first set of antlers. If you have a healthy buck:doe ratio they won't be breeding anyway....let them get to 2.5 before making the decision to cull. The belief that mature big bucks do the breeding is total BS.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: redchevy]
#7034387
01/11/18 05:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 351
ImBillT
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 351 |
.....this buck was a 6pt w/ a drop his first year..... not exactly roll of the dice keeping him around, even w/ the small tine length
ANY branching of the antlers during the second year, however small, seems to be the key indication of a 1-1/2 year old buck that should be allowed to walk. No question, the ability to share photos and discuss them has made a significant impact on what we are learning about buck development. It has also given us the opportunity to validate the accuracy of what biologists have been preaching to us. In my opinion, no 1.5 year old buck should EVER be killed, regardless of antler development (or lack thereof). There are simply too many variables that can cause a good buck to grow a crappy first set of antlers. If you have a healthy buck:doe ratio they won't be breeding anyway....let them get to 2.5 before making the decision to cull. The belief that mature big bucks do the breeding is total BS. RedChevy - While I don’t disagree entirely, if you have a 1:1 doe to buck ratio, very very few 18month old deer will have the opportunity to breed. Also, while I would strongly recommend culling as early as possible, including at 1.5yrs old, culling at 1.5yrs is much more important when buck numbers are low. ElandSlayer - If you need to remove X number of deer to keep your herd from going over capacity, and you need Y number of those deer to be bucks to keep your ratio in check, then it comes down to which ones have to go. If you protect the entire 1.5yr old age class, then all of those bucks that have to be eliminated come from the older deer. It actually lowers your average age and reduces the number of mature bucks. You end up killing a great deer that needed one more year, instead of a deer that needs four more years and may never be good anyway. You can choose which age deer to eliminate in variety of ways. Eliminating the bottom half of the yearling population is not a bad way at all to maintain both a high average age and very good genetics. Another simple method is to identify all of the mature bucks that definitely need to go, a trophy or two that may not make it to next year or may decline, and then use the rest on the bottom of your yearling crop. Holding out on a subpar yearling in hopes that he’ll be good one day is very inefficient and results in a 3.5-4.5yr old cull far more times than it results in a surprise trophy. Remember, we’re managing population and sex ratio as well as antlers. One of those bucks has to go. I’ll take a lagging yearling anytime. Are there plenty of reasons that a deer might be lagging at 18months besides genetics? Sure, but how does he compare to his peers? Other than date of birth, his peers experienced the same conditions. OP- most places don’t have 6pt yearlings in the bottom half of they yearling crop. If you do, then that deer is probably still lagging behind his peers that had better racks at 18months.
Last edited by ImBillT; 01/11/18 06:11 PM.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7034484
01/11/18 06:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,605
fouzman
OP
Veteran Tracker
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OP
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UPDATE: Looks like I was doubly wrong on the deer above. Just learned that the buck, I was so certain was the one we called "fishhook", was killed last year by a "guest". At 2 1/2.  The man was hunting for a specific buck. A 6 1/2 yr old trophy that was unmistakeable. And ONLY that one deer. His "story" is that the trophy and "fishhook" came in together, he decided the trophy was too big, and shot the smaller buck, instead. Yeah, right. Only reason I found out is because I was so insistent the deer above was "fishhook". Below is the deer he was supposed to kill, and then "fishhook" at 2.5.  I now feel like a dumbarse, on several levels. Bottom line, our fault. He should have been guided.  
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7035219
01/12/18 04:04 AM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 351
ImBillT
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 351 |
While Fishhook would be a great deer on some places, on your place, he was a definite cull. No harm done unless you just needed someone to pay up and harvest the trophy before he entered decline.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: Texas Dan]
#7040201
01/16/18 04:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 63,023
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 63,023 |
.....this buck was a 6pt w/ a drop his first year..... not exactly roll of the dice keeping him around, even w/ the small tine length
ANY branching of the antlers during the second year, however small, seems to be the key indication of a 1-1/2 year old buck that should be allowed to walk. No question, the ability to share photos and discuss them has made a significant impact on what we are learning about buck development. It has also given us the opportunity to validate the accuracy of what biologists have been preaching to us. Apparently,Y’all love you some browless deer then with those blanket statements
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7040364
01/16/18 06:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 482
cullbuck
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 482 |
I would have certainly allowed fishhook at least a couple more years for evaluation on our lease. We've got plenty 2 years olds that are not that good that are still among the living.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: ImBillT]
#7040416
01/16/18 07:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 63,023
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 63,023 |
While Fishhook would be a great deer on some places, on your place, he was a definite cull. No harm done unless you just needed someone to pay up and harvest the trophy before he entered decline. Concur, although it’s nice to be at a point CC wise you can afford to gamble on a few also, so I could see the allure
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: ImBillT]
#7040579
01/16/18 09:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 16,775
QuitShootinYoungBucks
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 16,775 |
RedChevy - While I don’t disagree entirely, if you have a 1:1 doe to buck ratio, very very few 18month old deer will have the opportunity to breed. Also, while I would strongly recommend culling as early as possible, including at 1.5yrs old, culling at 1.5yrs is much more important when buck numbers are low.
ElandSlayer - If you need to remove X number of deer to keep your herd from going over capacity, and you need Y number of those deer to be bucks to keep your ratio in check, then it comes down to which ones have to go. If you protect the entire 1.5yr old age class, then all of those bucks that have to be eliminated come from the older deer. It actually lowers your average age and reduces the number of mature bucks. You end up killing a great deer that needed one more year, instead of a deer that needs four more years and may never be good anyway. You can choose which age deer to eliminate in variety of ways. Eliminating the bottom half of the yearling population is not a bad way at all to maintain both a high average age and very good genetics. Another simple method is to identify all of the mature bucks that definitely need to go, a trophy or two that may not make it to next year or may decline, and then use the rest on the bottom of your yearling crop. Holding out on a subpar yearling in hopes that he’ll be good one day is very inefficient and results in a 3.5-4.5yr old cull far more times than it results in a surprise trophy. Remember, we’re managing population and sex ratio as well as antlers. One of those bucks has to go. I’ll take a lagging yearling anytime. Are there plenty of reasons that a deer might be lagging at 18months besides genetics? Sure, but how does he compare to his peers? Other than date of birth, his peers experienced the same conditions.
OP- most places don’t have 6pt yearlings in the bottom half of they yearling crop. If you do, then that deer is probably still lagging behind his peers that had better racks at 18months.
 CC is a very important thing and it's not just about removing does.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7041199
01/17/18 04:17 AM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 25,126
dkershen
Rev Dave
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Rev Dave
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 25,126 |
To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.www.NewHopeEquine.com - Health and Healing through Horses.
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Re: The Perils of Culling From the "Bottom"
[Re: fouzman]
#7041316
01/17/18 10:09 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 624
fishbait
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 624 |
For me, this is a 5 1/2 year old. I don't see anything that could indicate less. All characteristics that I see are 5 1/2 yr.s old. However, I certainly could be wrong as I have been in the past. But I do see four things that do indicate a 5 1/2.
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