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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: hetman]
#7029392
01/08/18 02:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,592
redchevy
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should have used a 50BMG and "SUCKED her EYEBALLS out" Dang didn't you learn anything from the hunting shows Actually... I didn't even hit that deer, the bullet wizzed really close to her neck and the shock wave did all the damage
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7029433
01/08/18 03:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,039
Vern1
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should have used a 50BMG and "SUCKED her EYEBALLS out" Dang didn't you learn anything from the hunting shows Actually... I didn't even hit that deer, the bullet wizzed really close to her neck and the shock wave did all the damage Bullet wizz shock wave. Is that the new proper term for this eyeball/organ/neck meat sucking phenomenon?
Cheers, Vern1 Texans since The Old 300 in 1824 NRA Lifetime Member
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7029435
01/08/18 03:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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I've seen a Accubond do similar. Hit perfect behind the shoulder but barely clipped a lung on it's turn straight down.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7029504
01/08/18 03:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,682
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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So you're going to trade a cup and core for a bullet with two cups and two cores? If you shoot enough deer, anything can happen eventually. You can't extrapolate what that bullet would have done in a different location because you didn't shoot it in that location. That's like saying your truck would have gotten better mileage driving on 281 instead of HWY 16. Well, since you didn't drive 281 on that day, with that brand of gas, and that weather, you just don't know. You may have just hit her in the exact right spot, with the muscles and bone at the perfect angles, to deflect any bullet up and out like that. We killed nearly 200 whitetails at our place with Remington Corelokts and never had a problem with the performance of the bullet itself. But I guess I shouldn't have trusted them. Stuff happens.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks]
#7029540
01/08/18 04:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,592
redchevy
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So you're going to trade a cup and core for a bullet with two cups and two cores? If you shoot enough deer, anything can happen eventually. You can't extrapolate what that bullet would have done in a different location because you didn't shoot it in that location. That's like saying your truck would have gotten better mileage driving on 281 instead of HWY 16. Well, since you didn't drive 281 on that day, with that brand of gas, and that weather, you just don't know. You may have just hit her in the exact right spot, with the muscles and bone at the perfect angles, to deflect any bullet up and out like that. We killed nearly 200 whitetails at our place with Remington Corelokts and never had a problem with the performance of the bullet itself. But I guess I shouldn't have trusted them. Stuff happens. Yes i will readily trade for 2 cores. The partition changes the ball game big time. Ive shot quite a few critters in my day enough to know that sometimes i get a 6 inch exit with a cup and core soft point out of my 270 and sometimes no exit with the same bullet and shot placement. The consistency is all over the board. The partition for me has done the exact same thing every time from 223 to 300 wby. On every one that i have recovered (only one out of an animal, i have intentionally lined up many deer/hogs with trees so i can recover a bullet) the front core expands and sheds reducing the retained weight to just over 60% and the rear core remains intact and penetrates. I have never recovered one with an intact first core. That is why i love them, they readily expand and they always penetrate. I agree stuff does happen. Some say i like x bullet because i always shoot through the ribs, well if you hit the shoulder stuff happens not with a partition it will perform great on either. For what people spend on hunting stuff and how its almost cool now a days to spend more on stuff just because i cant figure why so many people shoot the cheapest bullets they can get. I have seen first hand what the results are of using them. I'm a tinkerer and reloader so I am always messing with the next thing or some other bullet. My brother and dad have refused to shoot anything other than partitions because of their observations with the other bullets. They are not fancy, they are not flashy, they are not the new hot thing on the market, but i do think since their inception they have yet to be rivaled as the ultimate all around hunting bullet.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7029658
01/08/18 05:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,682
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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So you're going to trade a cup and core for a bullet with two cups and two cores? If you shoot enough deer, anything can happen eventually. You can't extrapolate what that bullet would have done in a different location because you didn't shoot it in that location. That's like saying your truck would have gotten better mileage driving on 281 instead of HWY 16. Well, since you didn't drive 281 on that day, with that brand of gas, and that weather, you just don't know. You may have just hit her in the exact right spot, with the muscles and bone at the perfect angles, to deflect any bullet up and out like that. We killed nearly 200 whitetails at our place with Remington Corelokts and never had a problem with the performance of the bullet itself. But I guess I shouldn't have trusted them. Stuff happens. Yes i will readily trade for 2 cores. The partition changes the ball game big time. Ive shot quite a few critters in my day enough to know that sometimes i get a 6 inch exit with a cup and core soft point out of my 270 and sometimes no exit with the same bullet and shot placement. The consistency is all over the board. The partition for me has done the exact same thing every time from 223 to 300 wby. On every one that i have recovered (only one out of an animal, i have intentionally lined up many deer/hogs with trees so i can recover a bullet) the front core expands and sheds reducing the retained weight to just over 60% and the rear core remains intact and penetrates. I have never recovered one with an intact first core. That is why i love them, they readily expand and they always penetrate. I agree stuff does happen. Some say i like x bullet because i always shoot through the ribs, well if you hit the shoulder stuff happens not with a partition it will perform great on either. For what people spend on hunting stuff and how its almost cool now a days to spend more on stuff just because i cant figure why so many people shoot the cheapest bullets they can get. I have seen first hand what the results are of using them. I'm a tinkerer and reloader so I am always messing with the next thing or some other bullet. My brother and dad have refused to shoot anything other than partitions because of their observations with the other bullets. They are not fancy, they are not flashy, they are not the new hot thing on the market, but i do think since their inception they have yet to be rivaled as the ultimate all around hunting bullet. I was just giving you a bit of grief, RC. I can understand why you like the Partitions-why didn't you have one in that load already? And due to accuracy issued, I've moved on from the Corelokts. The bullets were always great; shoulder-ribs-neck, it didn't seem to matter. The 6-8 I recovered over the years were always just like the picture in the magazines-a perfect mushroom. The best news is that you got the deer!
https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7029685
01/08/18 05:48 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,592
redchevy
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Originally bought the 243 as a mostly range gun to get my wife to shoot more. She insists she doesn't like the 243 and likes shooting my 270 better. I bought the prohunters because they were cheap and I had always been well pleased with sierra's accuracy and figured if I ended up taking it hunting it would suffice, which it has.
I cant count the number of 1/2 shot boxes of bullets on my loading bench and a year or so ago I decided I would shoot them till they were gone. I think I have a dozen or so of the sierras left then they will be gone. After them I have a 100 round box of hornady btsp's with 25 missing that is on the shoot list and finally I will start with the partitions. My best load with the Sierras is 40 grains of IMR 4350, I decided after I pillar bedded it to take 5 of each of the sierras hornady's and partitions loaded over the same 40 grain charge seated to the same depth and see how they shot. The sierras were best followed closely by the hornadys and the partitions brought up the rear, but they were all sub moa at 100 yards, I was really surprised, rifle seems to like that charge with a 100 grain bullet. I will tweak a little to see if I can improve the partition load in the future.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7029969
01/08/18 08:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,956
Jgraider
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Partitions are the closest thing to a perfect hunting bullet that exists IMO. They work as they are designed to every time. There's a reason every bullet maker has been trying to emulate partition performance for 65 years now.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7030149
01/08/18 10:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,426
jeffbird
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Barnes TTSX's are now the bullet of choice for every one of my rifles except for one. Partitions are another excellent all around choice, but not every rifle shoots them well. The TTSX's are very accurate in every one of my rifles. Note - my comment only applies to the Tipped TSX, not the previous version the TSX.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7030186
01/08/18 11:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
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603Country
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I never thought much of the accuracy of Partitions. I tried them in my 223’s first barrel and used a long list of powders, but groups weren’t great. Yesterday as I caught up on loading all the ammo the grandkids shot up, I decided to try some Partitions in the new barrel. I had H335 in the thrower, so I went with that. At near max I found a great load that amazingly prints right where the 40 gr BTs print. I’m happy.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: jeffbird]
#7030251
01/08/18 11:59 PM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,100
TackDriver
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Barnes TTSX's are now the bullet of choice for every one of my rifles except for one. Partitions are another excellent all around choice, but not every rifle shoots them well. The TTSX's are very accurate in every one of my rifles. Note - my comment only applies to the Tipped TSX, not the previous version the TSX. I read that the solid copper bullets causes lot of fouling over time, do you have any fouling issues?
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7030291
01/09/18 12:21 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,226
Rustler
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Which Pro Hunter bullet? RN, SPT, SMP, FN or HP/FN And this; Shot placement was too far from the brain stem.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: TackDriver]
#7030341
01/09/18 12:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,426
jeffbird
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Barnes TTSX's are now the bullet of choice for every one of my rifles except for one. Partitions are another excellent all around choice, but not every rifle shoots them well. The TTSX's are very accurate in every one of my rifles. Note - my comment only applies to the Tipped TSX, not the previous version the TSX. I read that the solid copper bullets causes lot of fouling over time, do you have any fouling issues? Really depends on the barrel. The current Barnes TTSX's foul less than the previous versions. In my MRC's, the TTSX's foul no more so than anything else. In my Accuracy International barrel, they cause lots of fouling, which is the one rifle I do not use them for hunting. That barrel has over 4,000 rounds through it, so maybe that is a factor? The Barnes Copper Solvent makes quick work of removing the copper or else use Wipe Out overnight. They are not a bullet that is going to be used in a high round count scenario, so it really is not an issue.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7030549
01/09/18 02:45 AM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,225
Smokey Bear
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Like most I concur the partition is as reliable as a hunting bullet gets. That said for deer I mostly shoot cup and core and Sierra's are some of my favorites. They perform different than a bonded bullet. If they are loaded up around 3000 fps you may very likely have the core and jacket seperate at close range. On a broad side shot, not taking on large bone, you can expect substantially larger exits if you get one, as well as more damage from a cup and core. The 243 is a wonderfully effective little cartridge, but it does garner the reputation of erratic terminal performance on big game from time to time. No question the partition along with other premium bullets somewhat mitigates that. Especially when taking on large bone or marginal angles with small fast cartridges. The cup and core is at is best on deer with heavy for caliber bullets in larger calibers, shooting heavier slugs. FWIW I would not have been afraid to take the same shot with prohunters out of a 243.....It does appear to have worked out ok.....experience tells me that same shot to the base of the cranium or the brain pan would have been instant lights out.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#7030664
01/09/18 03:31 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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Reliable, depending on where shot placement is intended. They are notorious for not shooting very tight. And I don't mean groups, I mean same CBS, same POI every time. When the target area on an animal is very, very small, maybe they aren't the bullet to choose.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#7030835
01/09/18 05:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,185
Tactical Cowboy
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Like most I concur the partition is as reliable as a hunting bullet gets. That said for deer I mostly shoot cup and core and Sierra's are some of my favorites. They perform different than a bonded bullet. If they are loaded up around 3000 fps you may very likely have the core and jacket seperate at close range. On a broad side shot, not taking on large bone, you can expect substantially larger exits if you get one, as well as more damage from a cup and core. The 243 is a wonderfully effective little cartridge, but it does garner the reputation of erratic terminal performance on big game from time to time. No question the partition along with other premium bullets somewhat mitigates that. Especially when taking on large bone or marginal angles with small fast cartridges. The cup and core is at is best on deer with heavy for caliber bullets in larger calibers, shooting heavier slugs. FWIW I would not have been afraid to take the same shot with prohunters out of a 243.....It does appear to have worked out ok.....experience tells me that same shot to the base of the cranium or the brain pan would have been instant lights out. Whew... you saved me a lot of typing!!
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: J.G.]
#7030945
01/09/18 12:18 PM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,225
Smokey Bear
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Reliable, depending on where shot placement is intended. They are notorious for not shooting very tight. And I don't mean groups, I mean same CBS, same POI every time. When the target area on an animal is very, very small, maybe they aren't the bullet to choose. No disagreement from me. I went through it last summer, trying to work up a load for a 7 RM. Eventually punted it cause i could not get it to shoot well enough to suit me. BUT if you get partitions shooting to your satisfaction, they have few equals for on game performance. The argument could be made that the light fast cartridges like 243/6mm get the biggest boost on deer size game from bonded core bullets.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: J.G.]
#7031071
01/09/18 02:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,592
redchevy
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Reliable, depending on where shot placement is intended. They are notorious for not shooting very tight. And I don't mean groups, I mean same CBS, same POI every time. When the target area on an animal is very, very small, maybe they aren't the bullet to choose. Could you explain that?
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7031128
01/09/18 02:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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Reliable, depending on where shot placement is intended. They are notorious for not shooting very tight. And I don't mean groups, I mean same CBS, same POI every time. When the target area on an animal is very, very small, maybe they aren't the bullet to choose. Could you explain that? When they hit what someone meant for them to hit, there's no denying they work great. But if the load just doesn't shoot tight enough for a guy to be able to put them where he wants them, then they aren't doing much good. Months ago, remember, I went through more work than usual to get my AR-15 to shoot 60 gr Partitions well. And I finally got a decent load. Really the best of the worst. Four days ago, same exact powder lot, same exact rifle and scope but 55 gr Sierra Game King spire point boattail. The Game Kings shot well inside the Partitions. Like, grouped half as large. Though I have am unusal 1:9, it should have zero trouble stabilizing a 60 gr bullet. In fact, I should be able to go with an even longer bullet than 60 gr. The nature of the Partition, is they don't shoot tight for many rifles. It comes down to different strokes for different folks. In the case of my AR-15, I loaded about 100 of the Partitions. Once those are shot, I will not buy more, as I have 700 SGKs on the shelf, that go where I tell them to go. Now, if a person has a Partition load that'll stay inside 8" out to 200 yards, they will probably do exactly what he needs them to do, every time they are lined up on lungs of big animals.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: J.G.]
#7031152
01/09/18 03:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,592
redchevy
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Reliable, depending on where shot placement is intended. They are notorious for not shooting very tight. And I don't mean groups, I mean same CBS, same POI every time. When the target area on an animal is very, very small, maybe they aren't the bullet to choose. Could you explain that? When they hit what someone meant for them to hit, there's no denying they work great. But if the load just doesn't shoot tight enough for a guy to be able to put them where he wants them, then they aren't doing much good. Months ago, remember, I went through more work than usual to get my AR-15 to shoot 60 gr Partitions well. And I finally got a decent load. Really the best of the worst. Four days ago, same exact powder lot, same exact rifle and scope but 55 gr Sierra Game King spire point boattail. The Game Kings shot well inside the Partitions. Like, grouped half as large. Though I have am unusal 1:9, it should have zero trouble stabilizing a 60 gr bullet. In fact, I should be able to go with an even longer bullet than 60 gr. The nature of the Partition, is they don't shoot tight for many rifles. It comes down to different strokes for different folks. In the case of my AR-15, I loaded about 100 of the Partitions. Once those are shot, I will not buy more, as I have 700 SGKs on the shelf, that go where I tell them to go. Now, if a person has a Partition load that'll stay inside 8" out to 200 yards, they will probably do exactly what he needs them to do, every time they are lined up on lungs of big animals. Didn't you also do most of your load work up either jamming them or with very little jump? They like a jump and quite a bit of it in my experience. I guess I have never experienced the side of them that has been hard to get them to shoot. 2 270 Winchesters, a 280 rem, a 223, 2- 243's, and a 300 wby will all shoot them an inch or less with little to no load work up. They are also all factory original except the 2 243's one has been pillar bedded and the other pillar/glass bedded. They will all super easily do better than 8" at 200.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7031154
01/09/18 03:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,592
redchevy
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When I reloaded for the 223, I had been shooting federal premium 60 grain partitions before. I took one of the factory loads set my seating die off of it. Looked at my load data for the powder I had and loaded the powder charge that most closely mimicked the speed of the factory load about 3050 fps and that is it. It shoots really well, easily under an inch if I can do my part and that's with a cheap arse ADL and factory trigger.
I was also probably 12-15 at the time, not exactly sure.
Last edited by redchevy; 01/09/18 03:15 PM.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7031162
01/09/18 03:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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The Partitions jumped, and the SGKs jumped. The Partitions just didn't shoot well in that particular rifle.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7048247
01/22/18 02:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,592
redchevy
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Shot another doe this weekend. 150 yards same gun same bullets. Placed behind the shoulder quartering away. I shot from an elevated stand. Bullet entered mid body behind shoulder, hit inside of shoulder on the off side and traveled up the shoulder blade through the far side back strap and exited between the tops of the shoulder blade on the top of the back. Up till this had really been pretty pleased with the prohunters, but am very glad they will be all used up long before next deer season.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7048255
01/22/18 02:35 PM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,100
TackDriver
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Shot another doe this weekend. 150 yards same gun same bullets. Placed behind the shoulder quartering away. I shot from an elevated stand. Bullet entered mid body behind shoulder, hit inside of shoulder on the off side and traveled up the shoulder blade through the far side back strap and exited between the tops of the shoulder blade on the top of the back. Up till this had really been pretty pleased with the prohunters, but am very glad they will be all used up long before next deer season. Excellent, I never tried the Pro Hunters, but Sierra has some nice bullets especially the Gamekings. The Pro Hunters are flat based, how much difference from the Game Kings with a boat tail at long distances before you see a drop? I am sure not much under 300 yards.
Last edited by TackDriver; 01/22/18 02:37 PM.
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Re: Why I don’t trust cup and core bullets
[Re: redchevy]
#7048295
01/22/18 02:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,592
redchevy
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Game kings should be better at long range. I bought prohunters because ill probably never shoot over 300 yards and prohunters are supposed to be a little heavier constructed than the gamekings.
I did put them on paper at 200 yards this weekend. I managed a 2 inch group... after falling in a tractor rut and spraining my ankle pretty badly and a 25 mph crosswind.
It's hell eatin em live
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