I’ve also heard of a theory, now that I think about it, that some believe penciling is mainly caused by the meplat being deformed and closed up, keeping the tip from opening up and expanding.

Makes sense to me too. Since that has been the situation with the ones I've had experience with.

I cannot call B.S. on that.

And we go back to the common scenario with many hunters, even many on this forum. Speed rules all! The faster the bullet goes, the better. Evidently that does not work for VLD-Hunting bullets.

That’s the impression I get. A man has to know his bullet’s limitations.

Well put, and know also know his and his rifles capabilities. Cause minimum expansion velocity could be at 400-500 yards or if shooting a big magnum it could be well past 1000 yards. Not everyone is capable of shooting to min expansion velocity.

That's right.

I have had great results with the 210 Berger VLDs on mule deer. I took one at 685 yards and recovered the bullet in the right shoulder. It was great expansion and almost exited. It did tear up some meat. My wife shot a mule deer at 260 yards with a 200 eldx and the deer dropped In it’s tracks. Perfect shot through the fromt shoulder through the lungs then fragmented a bit with 3 exit wounds. Destroyed both shoulders and the tenderloins.

Yeah, and when you push the bullet hard enough to extend its maximum range, sometimes you exceed its abilities at closer ranges. This is what I’ve always struggled with in finding the best load for 0-1000 yard hunting. And again we come back to those heavy bullets. They slow things down enough but retain their velocity to make up for it. That’s the greatest solution I’ve found, but if I can have a bullet that’ll do all that and hold up while scooting along a little faster, well, I’m all over it.

I think I found a winner in the 180 gr 7mm, with a 2950 MV. And, if memory serves, my friend's 210 .30 cal has an MV of 2850.

Once my 7 Rem Mag is shot out, I'm 99% decided to rebarrel for 7-300 and a 195 gr EOL. Look at that BC, that weight, and an MV of ~3000 fps. With that, I may be getting too fast for that "sweet spot" in bullet weight (for caliber) in a Berger, but I really doubt it.

My muzzle velocity with the 210s is at 2950 with a es of 7. 28” barrel throated for the 210’s. This is also shooting suppressed

That does sound impressive.

My friend's barrel is 22 or 24", can't remember exactly. I looked for what shot consistent, and let the speed be what ever it be.

IMO, a bullet with those paramaters does not exist. Too big of a task.

Doesn’t sond like a bullet I want to collect my food with.

If I was just collecting food no rifle shot would be in the shoulder

FWIW

shot nice buck 137 yards

140gr Elite Hunter, 42. H-4350, 2595fps

shot broadside, buck ran. I gave him 30min to croak. While looking for blood, he jumped up at 50 yards stopped I shot him again.

Both shots penciled.

I'm trying more velocity or ELDX and Ballistic tips.

Buzz,

Nice looking deer.

if this is for the short barreled 6.5 Fieldcraft, try the 100 gr TTSX as fast as they will go. They run 3100 - 3200 in my 22” 260. Best accuracy is right at 3100. They have provided excellent results from 20 yards out to 212 yards.

Nice buck Buzz. Congrats.

There are just better options to me. I don’t subsistence hunt but do eat all the deer we shoot. Any bullet that is well placed in or behind the shoulder and jacks up the tenderloins is a no go for me.

I know everyone on this forum can neck shot a deer hanging off a west Texas mountain at 250-300 yards no problem but most people can’t. The deer went down where it stood and didn’t suffer= a good shot imo. If the bullet didn’t fragment the damage to the meat would have been minimal.

Well I can’t, but your experience is why I roll my eyes when someone asks about hunting bullets and everyone suggests the latest rage in long range high bc wiz bang etc. it’s ok I understand to a hammer everything is a nail.

Clearly. That’s why I’m asking about bullet performance. When a perfect bullet is made, I’ll stop asking.

Fireman turned me on to the Berger VLD-H a few years back and I have never regretted using them since. When used in the correct setting (velocity window and matching game size to bullet weight) they perform very well. Because of reports of bullet failures I contacted Berger support and also talked a lot with Nathan Foster at Ballisticstudies.com in New Zealand and got a wealth of info. What I was told makes sense.

When they work best...
1) Heavy for caliber bullets (eg 168 or 180 for 7mm)
2) Impact velocity between 2600 and 2000 fps
3) hollow point is open (meplat not crimped or lead filling area between hole in meplat and core) - check with a straight pin and it should go in hole a couple mm

When they fail...
1) too light vs animal body weight —> surface blow up/shallow penetration
2) close range/high velocity (>2800 fps) —> surface blow up/shallow penetration
3) extended range/low velocity (<1800 fps) —> pencilling
4) closed meplat —> pencilling
5) using target version (jacket is thinner) especially with light grain bullets and high velocity —> surface blow up/shallow penetration

Apparently around 2011, Berger thickened the jackets on their hunting line of bullets to combat jacket core separation and early blow up. This is why Berger claimes that their hunting bullets are now designed to enter body of game animal and then fragment. The target bullets perform more like Amax’s with violent/shallow wounding

I shoot the 168 VLD-H out of my 280ai with MV 2800. Based on my ballistics software that puts the ideal velocity window from 150 yds to 600 yds.

* WT doe high shoulder 250 yds @2440 fps — .284 hole in, no exit, DRT
* WT doe heart/lung at 401 yds @ 2240 fps — .284 hole in, no exit, DRT
* Axis buck rear lung at 365 yds @ 2300 fps — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood trail, went 10 yds
* Axis buck heart/lung at 260 yds @ 2440 fps — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood trail, went 15 yds
* WT buck heart at 160 yds @ 2575 fps — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood trail, went 10 yds
* WT buck gut shot at 100 yds @ 2650 — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood, went 30 yds
* WT buck gut shot at 160 yds @ 2575 — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood, went 10 yds

Meat damage was minimal even on high shoulder shot (zero loss on game with heart/lung shots). Internal damage was ridiculous. All animals died within eyesight of where they were standing, but no blood trail. I feel like this bullet saved me on the gut shot animals — any other bullet I think would have resulted in a long track or a lost animal. This is not a bullet I would use in heavy cover where tracking would be a concern or for close up shots. I worked up a dual load (same zero) with a more traditional bullet for those scenarios.

Yea but as easy as it is to get a Texas whitetail to corn at 100yd or less its pretty easy shot to make. For a trophy hunter they’re great for DRT. I have an assortment of VLDs, eld x, and even copper bullets like tsx. They all have a best use when hunting. VLD for example is my choice for sheep country when them taking one extra step could mean going off a cliff. It’s a bad choice for salvaging meat

I"m glad they work for you under those numerous paramaters RedSnake. You can have 'em.....give me an accubond any day of the week. Just last week I killed a beautiful 190" mule deer at a whopping distance of 40 yds. I would hate to see how that VLDH performed.