Tell me all about Berger terminal performance.

I’ve never given them a chance because of too many horror stories about on-game performance. In the last few years I’ve heard fewer bad things about them, while a lot of very experienced and trustworthy people claim they are dead reliable. Between that, their stupid accuracy and B.C.’s, they’re hard to ignore.

I want to know everything about their terminal performance. The good, the bad, and the ugly. How does the bullet hold up, or not hold up? How does it handle heavy bone and soft tissue? What can be expected of high velocity impacts, say, 3200 fps +? Do they damage a lot of meat? What gave them a bad rap for blowing up or penciling through and losing game or wasting meat, if they don’t do that? Which lines are hunting friendly and which ones are not?

Those are just some sample questions off the top of my head. I want to hear anything anyone has to say with actual on game experience. Specifics, general observations, pictures, etc. My mind is open.

Like any bullet, you can get pencil through wounds and you can get major fragmentation, depending on what you hit. The Berger VLD-H bullets are known for their dramatic exit wounds and heavy carnage. I have seen some crazy exit wounds with a VLD-H. But, I have had some reports of ice picks, meaning straight pass through with no expansion. Generally, the VLD-H cause major fragmentation. If you want to minimize this, the target bullets or the Hybrids "should" hold together better. The Berger target bullets have a thicker jacket, and the hunting bullets have a thinner jacket. So, the hunting bullets will open up easier.

Also, the 28 Nosler with the 195 EOL have had some awesome results. The shots taken from 400+ yards have reported animals dropping in their tracks with good penetration and good exit wounds. One of the guys I load for shot a large buck in the neck from 90 yards with a 28 Nosler and 195. The bullet did not exit! The buck dropped, and the entire neck and neck bone were destroyed. The faster you push them, the more fragmentatious the bullet should be.

I have also had a customer be very unhappy with the terminal performance of a 155 VLD-H in a 308 at 2900 fps. He said he shot a doe at about 100 yards, the bullet not only didn't exit, but the bullet didn't reach the vitals. He said the bullet near flattened out and went outwards around the entry wound instead of going into the animal. He said they shot it again, and inspected it afterwards. He switched to a bonded bullet for hunting after that. But he liked the accuracy for a target load, since it shot so well.

Some hunters like to salvage all the meat they can. These hunters think the Berger bullets are too destructive on meat, and do not like the bullet. The bullets are effective, but mess up too much meat. So, in that sense, the bullet does not make a good hunting bullet. In this case, I recommend a good bonded bullet or heavier bullet for slower impact speeds, less fragmentation, and deeper penetration.

I have taken many critters with a 140 VLD-H when I used to hunt with a 260. It always worked well for me with dramatic exit wounds.

I like the heavier for caliber bullets, like a 140 grain for a 6.5mm, 180 grain for 7mm, and 190-210 grain for 30 cal.

I’m a heavy bullet guy, myself. Thank you very much for the info.

What have you seen with the ELD-X at higher velocities?

I just realized Berger makes a 180 elite hunter in 30 cal. Would be nice for a 308...

On the ELD-X, my direct reports from customers have been good. Almost all exits, with a few bullets recovered. The bullets recovered were all on the far side under the skin. They showed perfect mushroom shaped expansion. I recommend these bullets, and I have been very impressed with them. Accuracy has been VERY good, also. I have done some load work ups and they have shot very tight, including some very long range groups. Their BC's seem to be very accurate as well, though I personally have not tested them.

The 2 rifles I have tested in were tight bore (.289" bore) in 300 Win Mag. The BC's were higher than advertised, which I expected, since this bore squeezes the bullet some and makes it longer for a higher BC. (I've seen the same thing with my 225 BTHP bullet).

Yes, it would!! I am loading 1000 rounds of 308 now for a guy with this bullet. I plan to shoot it some and get some good data with it, also.

My only concern is the 308 I am thinking is a shorter barrel (16in) which is great for weight but I would lose FPS and I will have to run some numbers if the higher bc is lost due to velocity

Yes. This is for a 26" or 28" barrel. If I run a shorter barrel in the 308, I like dropping down in weight to pick up some speed. A 150-155 grain is perfect for a 16"-18", maybe 20".

So Chad, if you're shooting shorty barreled rifles (6.5 creed, 7mm08, 270win) suppressed and most of your hunting shots are under 300 yards. Only two priorities are accuracy and death. Are the high bc bullets vld's, eld-x's etc. a waste? Would you steer a guy a different direction?

I've used the 6mm 105gr Hybrid and 224 80gr target vld on deer, pigs and yotes with great results. The 6mm did some serious damage on pigs. It didn't always exit on close shots ( running 3000fps at the muzzle) but would break the off side shoulder. Pigs went no where and dropped on the spot.

Used the 80gr vld this year out of a 22 Creedmoor. In haste of the approaching season the load I worked up was slow at 3120fps. I shot a buck behind the shoulder at 133yds. The bullet destroyed the lungs and top of the heart the exited leaving a 2" exit. I shot some trash pandas with it at 280yds and it was devastating and gruesome.

I've started loading 115gr vld for my dad's 25-06 running 3075fps that he's used on pigs and yotes. On pigs it doesn't always exit with shoulder shots but drops them. On yotes it will leave softball size exits up close.

I shot a buck with a 95 VLD hunting 243. Center punched the heart. .243” hole in and dime size exit. He ran 200 yards. Decided they weren’t for me but was talked back into them. 130 VLD Hunting and this time took the high shoulder as that is what everyone claims Bergers are best for. .277” hole in and dime size exit. 200 yards later found the buck. Won’t ever shoot them again. Sucks too because both guns love them. I have pics but can’t upload from my iPhone for some dang reason

If you run the numbers on drop and wind drift on the high BC bullets compared to the lighter bullets with a lower BC, there is not much difference inside of 300 yards. The distance isn't far enough to really take advantage of the high BC. For a 6.5 CM, I'd lean towards a 130 grain VLD-H, or a 123 ELD-M, if you want. But try them all and see what performance you like.

My son shot his spike a few weekends ago with my 308 Win 168 A-max bulk ammo out of his Tikka 308. I forget the exact speed out of his 20", but it's about 2450-2500 fps I think. The buck he shot, the bullet destroyed the heart and the buck dropped to his knees for a few seconds, then rolled over dead. There was a small exit hole, and I don't think the bullet expanded much. So we may drop down to a 150-155 grain to get some speed up and more expansion.

I’ve got some 175’s for my STW I need to work up a load for. I hear a lot of good about them, so I’m going to give them a fair shake in that rifle.

Sounds good. I’ve never been too concerned about exits, as long as the penetration is reliably sufficient to kill.

They have been more than enough for myself. Granted my personal experiences are with target type which have a thicker jacket. That being said the hunting vld in the 25-06 has been equally as impressive.

I use bergers 230 Hybrid targets in my rum and have had nothing but great results with them. The exit wounds are fantastic when they do exit though, the closest animal I have shot with them was a mule deer at 450 yards with no exit. However it turn the heart and lungs into jello and dropped the animal where it stood. Granted this was all with a 300 RUM pushing the 230 hybrid at approx 2985 fps at the muzzle.

7 Rem Mag, 168 VLDH, 3050 @ muzzle, average sized mature whitetail buck. This is the entrance at 120yds, behind the shoulder. Not my idea of hunting bullet performance. I also shot 8-9 150lb hogs with the same load. No exit, no blood trail, and if I hadn't seen where they ran off to I would have never found them. I'll never use them again.

With 135 gr Berger classic hunter shot 4 does from 135 to 702 yards ... all exited with two DRT and two ran a few yards and piled up. All were pass thru’s
Also shot a Red Stag and nice buck at 175 and 355 respectively both ran a few yards and piled up. Bullets were on far side after breaking shoulders.
Rifle was 6.5 SAUM

7mm 180 gr VLD-H, MV 2950 fps.

5 whitetail 100-250 yards
1 mule deer 60 yards, heart lungs
1 bull elk, 200 yards, heart lungs
1 cow elk, 465 yards, both lungs
1 cow elk, 515 yards, brain stem
1 sow, 648 yards, lungs
1 sow 750 yards, lungs.

All were on the ground from 0 to 10 seconds.

I’ve got a question about the Berger target bullets, with the thicker jacket. Any idea about what velocity they will stop reliably expanding as they slow down?

What twist do you have on that rifle?

1:8.5

After thinking about your first set of ceomments, I think....

The pencil through, lack of positive results were light (in my opinion) for caliber, and powder charge. Meaning, if I dropped down below a 168 gr in the same 7 Rem Mag, I'm betting I would not have as much good to say.

Buddy of mine had me load work a .300 Win Mag, factory Tikka. I loaded it with 210 gr VLD-Hunting. He has had zero complaints. In fact the opposite. He has called me with the attitude of "dayum, that thing is bad!"

Slowest ive seen them expand was 1700ish on a antelope that was with the 215's from a 300 winmag, left a golfball size exit wound, I know of people who have had similar results down to 1500. But I think at that point I would want a larger rifle.

That’s what I figured.

That makes sense. Most of the people that swear by them, that I’m familiar with, run heavy for caliber bullets.

Seems more than reasonable.

I’ve also heard of a theory, now that I think about it, that some believe penciling is mainly caused by the meplat being deformed and closed up, keeping the tip from opening up and expanding.

Makes sense to me too. Since that has been the situation with the ones I've had experience with.

I cannot call B.S. on that.

And we go back to the common scenario with many hunters, even many on this forum. Speed rules all! The faster the bullet goes, the better. Evidently that does not work for VLD-Hunting bullets.

That’s the impression I get. A man has to know his bullet’s limitations.

Well put, and know also know his and his rifles capabilities. Cause minimum expansion velocity could be at 400-500 yards or if shooting a big magnum it could be well past 1000 yards. Not everyone is capable of shooting to min expansion velocity.

That's right.

I have had great results with the 210 Berger VLDs on mule deer. I took one at 685 yards and recovered the bullet in the right shoulder. It was great expansion and almost exited. It did tear up some meat. My wife shot a mule deer at 260 yards with a 200 eldx and the deer dropped In it’s tracks. Perfect shot through the fromt shoulder through the lungs then fragmented a bit with 3 exit wounds. Destroyed both shoulders and the tenderloins.

Yeah, and when you push the bullet hard enough to extend its maximum range, sometimes you exceed its abilities at closer ranges. This is what I’ve always struggled with in finding the best load for 0-1000 yard hunting. And again we come back to those heavy bullets. They slow things down enough but retain their velocity to make up for it. That’s the greatest solution I’ve found, but if I can have a bullet that’ll do all that and hold up while scooting along a little faster, well, I’m all over it.

I think I found a winner in the 180 gr 7mm, with a 2950 MV. And, if memory serves, my friend's 210 .30 cal has an MV of 2850.

Once my 7 Rem Mag is shot out, I'm 99% decided to rebarrel for 7-300 and a 195 gr EOL. Look at that BC, that weight, and an MV of ~3000 fps. With that, I may be getting too fast for that "sweet spot" in bullet weight (for caliber) in a Berger, but I really doubt it.

My muzzle velocity with the 210s is at 2950 with a es of 7. 28” barrel throated for the 210’s. This is also shooting suppressed

That does sound impressive.

My friend's barrel is 22 or 24", can't remember exactly. I looked for what shot consistent, and let the speed be what ever it be.

IMO, a bullet with those paramaters does not exist. Too big of a task.

Doesn’t sond like a bullet I want to collect my food with.

If I was just collecting food no rifle shot would be in the shoulder

FWIW

shot nice buck 137 yards

140gr Elite Hunter, 42. H-4350, 2595fps

shot broadside, buck ran. I gave him 30min to croak. While looking for blood, he jumped up at 50 yards stopped I shot him again.

Both shots penciled.

I'm trying more velocity or ELDX and Ballistic tips.

Buzz,

Nice looking deer.

if this is for the short barreled 6.5 Fieldcraft, try the 100 gr TTSX as fast as they will go. They run 3100 - 3200 in my 22” 260. Best accuracy is right at 3100. They have provided excellent results from 20 yards out to 212 yards.

Nice buck Buzz. Congrats.

There are just better options to me. I don’t subsistence hunt but do eat all the deer we shoot. Any bullet that is well placed in or behind the shoulder and jacks up the tenderloins is a no go for me.

I know everyone on this forum can neck shot a deer hanging off a west Texas mountain at 250-300 yards no problem but most people can’t. The deer went down where it stood and didn’t suffer= a good shot imo. If the bullet didn’t fragment the damage to the meat would have been minimal.

Well I can’t, but your experience is why I roll my eyes when someone asks about hunting bullets and everyone suggests the latest rage in long range high bc wiz bang etc. it’s ok I understand to a hammer everything is a nail.

Clearly. That’s why I’m asking about bullet performance. When a perfect bullet is made, I’ll stop asking.

Fireman turned me on to the Berger VLD-H a few years back and I have never regretted using them since. When used in the correct setting (velocity window and matching game size to bullet weight) they perform very well. Because of reports of bullet failures I contacted Berger support and also talked a lot with Nathan Foster at Ballisticstudies.com in New Zealand and got a wealth of info. What I was told makes sense.

When they work best...
1) Heavy for caliber bullets (eg 168 or 180 for 7mm)
2) Impact velocity between 2600 and 2000 fps
3) hollow point is open (meplat not crimped or lead filling area between hole in meplat and core) - check with a straight pin and it should go in hole a couple mm

When they fail...
1) too light vs animal body weight —> surface blow up/shallow penetration
2) close range/high velocity (>2800 fps) —> surface blow up/shallow penetration
3) extended range/low velocity (<1800 fps) —> pencilling
4) closed meplat —> pencilling
5) using target version (jacket is thinner) especially with light grain bullets and high velocity —> surface blow up/shallow penetration

Apparently around 2011, Berger thickened the jackets on their hunting line of bullets to combat jacket core separation and early blow up. This is why Berger claimes that their hunting bullets are now designed to enter body of game animal and then fragment. The target bullets perform more like Amax’s with violent/shallow wounding

I shoot the 168 VLD-H out of my 280ai with MV 2800. Based on my ballistics software that puts the ideal velocity window from 150 yds to 600 yds.

* WT doe high shoulder 250 yds @2440 fps — .284 hole in, no exit, DRT
* WT doe heart/lung at 401 yds @ 2240 fps — .284 hole in, no exit, DRT
* Axis buck rear lung at 365 yds @ 2300 fps — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood trail, went 10 yds
* Axis buck heart/lung at 260 yds @ 2440 fps — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood trail, went 15 yds
* WT buck heart at 160 yds @ 2575 fps — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood trail, went 10 yds
* WT buck gut shot at 100 yds @ 2650 — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood, went 30 yds
* WT buck gut shot at 160 yds @ 2575 — .284 hole in, no exit/no blood, went 10 yds

Meat damage was minimal even on high shoulder shot (zero loss on game with heart/lung shots). Internal damage was ridiculous. All animals died within eyesight of where they were standing, but no blood trail. I feel like this bullet saved me on the gut shot animals — any other bullet I think would have resulted in a long track or a lost animal. This is not a bullet I would use in heavy cover where tracking would be a concern or for close up shots. I worked up a dual load (same zero) with a more traditional bullet for those scenarios.

Yea but as easy as it is to get a Texas whitetail to corn at 100yd or less its pretty easy shot to make. For a trophy hunter they’re great for DRT. I have an assortment of VLDs, eld x, and even copper bullets like tsx. They all have a best use when hunting. VLD for example is my choice for sheep country when them taking one extra step could mean going off a cliff. It’s a bad choice for salvaging meat

I"m glad they work for you under those numerous paramaters RedSnake. You can have 'em.....give me an accubond any day of the week. Just last week I killed a beautiful 190" mule deer at a whopping distance of 40 yds. I would hate to see how that VLDH performed.

Yep. Lots of good bullet choices out there. Folks just need to find one that works for them based on their hunting terrain and style. Worry less about MV etc and focus more on shooting technique and putting it where it needs to go.

That's the dang truth!

Thanks for the very detailed report, RedSnake. That’s some great information.

I highly recommend anybody who has questions about the performance of a specific bullet in a specific caliber go to Terminal Ballistics Research’s website — https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html.

I’ve read many of their articles. Always liked their stuff.

Sweet. Thanks for the reading link...

That's a great resource. Thanks for the link.

270 140gr VLD-H
330yd shot on a Pronghorn, hit him a tad low and a tad back, a fist sized hole on the far side of the ribs, he dropped and spun a couple times before his blood pressure dropped to zero.