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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: J.G.]
#6857394
08/15/17 06:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,956
Jgraider
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The CDS (custom dial system) is built by leupold off the gun and ammo you shoot. It's a automatic BDC basically. The zL1 allows you to make a full revolution out to 700-800 yards then it goes back to zero and locks when you get there so you know it's back to zero. The ZL2 allows you to go out to 1400-1600 yards and make two revolutions on the turret and won't lock until your back at your zero. I know what the CDS is. It's a dumbed down 1/4 MOA, with different labels. Here's the trouble with it. In order to get dials perfect, MV and BC has to be exact. What chronograph did you use to report to Leupold? Is it accurate? What BC did did you report? Did the bullet manufacturer give accurate data? What environmental conditions did you set the turret up for? Is that the only environmental conditions you will ever shoot it? If it is not, then the dials will be wrong, beyond 500 yards, very often. With a Mil or MOA based turret the end user can adjust as needed, based on the environmental conditions at the time of the shot. And by the way, gravity is the easy part, wind is the trick. That's where the proper reticle comes into play, and for wind holds, Mil is far and away easier to deal with. You obviously have to shoot and verify before making the dial. Same goes with verifying a mil/mil setup.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: dee]
#6857397
08/15/17 06:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,956
Jgraider
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I got behind David Tubb kowa at a match and wasn't overly blown away. Keep in mind he runs like a fixed 27x long eye relief eye piece. Swaro spotters and slc binos best pretty much anything I've been behind. The army amu nikon image stabilization binos were pretty nice but my understanding was not overly available but I've not looked.
Rifle scopes are something completely different and the euro dominte still if you get behind them. Some jap scopes are there too but a majority aren't. I'll agree schott isn't end all be all but theres a good chance it'll be tough to find problems if in a quality product. Get behind a Kowa 883/884 and you will see the light.......It also depends on what you mean when you say "euro dominate still". If your talking optical quality alone, you may be right. If you're talking about absolute mechanical reliability, not so much. Nightforce (Jap) is the king.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: Jgraider]
#6857430
08/15/17 07:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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The CDS (custom dial system) is built by leupold off the gun and ammo you shoot. It's a automatic BDC basically. The zL1 allows you to make a full revolution out to 700-800 yards then it goes back to zero and locks when you get there so you know it's back to zero. The ZL2 allows you to go out to 1400-1600 yards and make two revolutions on the turret and won't lock until your back at your zero. I know what the CDS is. It's a dumbed down 1/4 MOA, with different labels. Here's the trouble with it. In order to get dials perfect, MV and BC has to be exact. What chronograph did you use to report to Leupold? Is it accurate? What BC did did you report? Did the bullet manufacturer give accurate data? What environmental conditions did you set the turret up for? Is that the only environmental conditions you will ever shoot it? If it is not, then the dials will be wrong, beyond 500 yards, very often. With a Mil or MOA based turret the end user can adjust as needed, based on the environmental conditions at the time of the shot. And by the way, gravity is the easy part, wind is the trick. That's where the proper reticle comes into play, and for wind holds, Mil is far and away easier to deal with. You obviously have to shoot and verify before making the dial. Same goes with verifying a mil/mil setup. How are you going to verify, when Leupold is making the dial, several states away? Let them build it, ship it, charge $100, a guy tries to verify and something is wrong. Then what, ship it back and have them make a new one? I'm well aware of verification of Mil or MOA. And often something does not line up. That's where adjustments can be made and the end user can get dialed in perfect. I wouldn't bet on Leupold being able to do the same, especially beyond 500 yards.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: EasyMoney]
#6857434
08/15/17 07:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,612
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,612 |
So what's night force's glass in all three lines.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: J.G.]
#6857465
08/15/17 07:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,956
Jgraider
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I'm well aware of verification of Mil or MOA. And often something does not line up. That's where adjustments can be made and the end user can get dialed in perfect. I wouldn't bet on Leupold being able to do the same, especially beyond 500 yards.
In my case, over the past 3 years, you'd be wrong.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: Jgraider]
#6857521
08/15/17 08:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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I'm well aware of verification of Mil or MOA. And often something does not line up. That's where adjustments can be made and the end user can get dialed in perfect. I wouldn't bet on Leupold being able to do the same, especially beyond 500 yards.
In my case, over the past 3 years, you'd be wrong. Evidently it is my imagination that elevation needs adjustment based on environtment. I have no idea how I hit those pieces of steel out to a mile. Must have been God that willed them in. I will watch for Leupold CDS turrets to show up in PRS. They are clearly the right way. And we have been doing it the wrong way.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#6857523
08/15/17 08:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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So what's night force's glass in all three lines. Loving my ATACR. Best glass I've ever spent time behind.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: J.G.]
#6857555
08/15/17 08:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 831
bphillips
Tracker
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I'm well aware of verification of Mil or MOA. And often something does not line up. That's where adjustments can be made and the end user can get dialed in perfect. I wouldn't bet on Leupold being able to do the same, especially beyond 500 yards.
In my case, over the past 3 years, you'd be wrong. Evidently it is my imagination that elevation needs adjustment based on environtment. I have no idea how I hit those pieces of steel out to a mile. Must have been God that willed them in. I will watch for Leupold CDS turrets to show up in PRS. They are clearly the right way. And we have been doing it the wrong way. CDS are hunting scopes. They also will make a straight MOA turret instead of load specific if you want That said I wanted mil so with a Mark6 with low profile turrets now that most of their tracking bugs have been worked through.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: bphillips]
#6857579
08/15/17 08:56 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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Hunting scopes, competition scopes, doesn't matter. Distance is distance.
In fact, keeping a bullet in the vitals of anything smaller than an elk at 600+ is more difficult that hitting a 1 1/2 MOA, or 2 MOA piece of steel at 600+.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: Jgraider]
#6857580
08/15/17 08:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
THF Trophy Hunter
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[quote=dee]I got behind David Tubb kowa at a match and wasn't overly blown away. Keep in mind he runs like a fixed 27x long eye relief eye piece. Swaro spotters and slc binos best pretty much anything I've been behind. The army amu nikon image stabilization binos were pretty nice but my understanding was not overly available but I've not looked.
Rifle scopes are something completely different and the euro dominte still if you get behind them. Some jap scopes are there too but a majority aren't. I'll agree schott isn't end all be all but theres a good chance it'll be tough to find problems if in a quality product. Get behind a Kowa 883/884 and you will see the light.......It also depends on what you mean when you say "euro dominate still". If your talking optical quality alone, you may be right. If you're talking about absolute mechanical reliability, not so much. Nightforce (Jap) is the king. [/quot0e] Can't say what model his was. It was nice don't get me wrong but nothing about it made me say wow. Nf is no better or worse than S&B PM II, Stiener M series or Hendsolt (3 main euro rugged optics). My personal nf never failed me but it didn't have near the rugged built like a tank feel my premier has either. That being said not all nf are japan either and most are assembled stateside.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#6857581
08/15/17 08:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219 |
So what's night force's glass in all three lines. Varys between models
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: J.G.]
#6857586
08/15/17 09:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 831
bphillips
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 831 |
Hunting scopes, competition scopes, doesn't matter. Distance is distance.
In fact, keeping a bullet in the vitals of anything smaller than an elk at 600+ is more difficult that hitting a 1 1/2 MOA, or 2 MOA piece of steel at 600+. I only mentioned it in response to waiting for them to show up in PRS. Very limited options with them and MOA only. Quite a few people have excellent luck with them anyway
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: bphillips]
#6857603
08/15/17 09:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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Hunting scopes, competition scopes, doesn't matter. Distance is distance.
In fact, keeping a bullet in the vitals of anything smaller than an elk at 600+ is more difficult that hitting a 1 1/2 MOA, or 2 MOA piece of steel at 600+. I only mentioned it in response to waiting for them to show up in PRS. Very limited options with them and MOA only. Quite a few people have excellent luck with them anyway That was a jab from me. He's just going to disagree with me every chance he gets. Doesn't matter if he means it or not. My point was, it is simple fact that adjustments HAVE to be made, based on environment, beyond 500 yards. This happens on my range, throughout the year. Cold air is thick air, bullets drop more. Hot air is thin air, bullets drop less. Then get in the truck and drive 250 miles NW, and it's a whole new ballgame. Higher elevation, and thinner air. Last month I got there at 5 pm, checked zero at 100, and consulted the ballistic calculator for 1000 yards. First round hit, same at 1100 yards, and 1350 yards. Had I performed the exact same exercise at 6 am, the next morning there would have been a different set of corrections, no doubt about it.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: J.G.]
#6857611
08/15/17 09:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 831
bphillips
Tracker
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Tracker
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Hunting scopes, competition scopes, doesn't matter. Distance is distance.
In fact, keeping a bullet in the vitals of anything smaller than an elk at 600+ is more difficult that hitting a 1 1/2 MOA, or 2 MOA piece of steel at 600+. I only mentioned it in response to waiting for them to show up in PRS. Very limited options with them and MOA only. Quite a few people have excellent luck with them anyway That was a jab from me. He's just going to disagree with me every chance he gets. Doesn't matter if he means it or not. My point was, it is simple fact that adjustments HAVE to be made, based on environment, beyond 500 yards. This happens on my range, throughout the year. Cold air is thick air, bullets drop more. Hot air is thin air, bullets drop less. Then get in the truck and drive 250 miles NW, and it's a whole new ballgame. Higher elevation, and thinner air. Last month I got there at 5 pm, checked zero at 100, and consulted the ballistic calculator for 1000 yards. First round hit, same at 1100 yards, and 1350 yards. Had I performed the exact same exercise at 6 am, the next morning there would have been a different set of corrections, no doubt about it. Oh ok didn't know that haha I definitely agree with needing a turret you can make changes with. If I ever got a vx6 for a hunting rifle it would be a plain MOA turret and not "custom" Hopefully once my 6.5saum is done I'll get to come shoot and pick your brain.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: bphillips]
#6857643
08/15/17 09:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
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Hunting scopes, competition scopes, doesn't matter. Distance is distance.
In fact, keeping a bullet in the vitals of anything smaller than an elk at 600+ is more difficult that hitting a 1 1/2 MOA, or 2 MOA piece of steel at 600+. I only mentioned it in response to waiting for them to show up in PRS. Very limited options with them and MOA only. Quite a few people have excellent luck with them anyway That was a jab from me. He's just going to disagree with me every chance he gets. Doesn't matter if he means it or not. My point was, it is simple fact that adjustments HAVE to be made, based on environment, beyond 500 yards. This happens on my range, throughout the year. Cold air is thick air, bullets drop more. Hot air is thin air, bullets drop less. Then get in the truck and drive 250 miles NW, and it's a whole new ballgame. Higher elevation, and thinner air. Last month I got there at 5 pm, checked zero at 100, and consulted the ballistic calculator for 1000 yards. First round hit, same at 1100 yards, and 1350 yards. Had I performed the exact same exercise at 6 am, the next morning there would have been a different set of corrections, no doubt about it. Oh ok didn't know that haha I definitely agree with needing a turret you can make changes with. If I ever got a vx6 for a hunting rifle it would be a plain MOA turret and not "custom" Hopefully once my 6.5saum is done I'll get to come shoot and pick your brain. Scroll down to "Mils versus MOA" http://www.precisionriflehunters.com/blog/
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: bphillips]
#6857691
08/15/17 10:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,956
Jgraider
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CDS are hunting scopes. They also will make a straight MOA turret instead of load specific if you want
Evidently that went over the fireman's head. He obviously missed the posts where I've repeatedly said that for constant twisting of turrets, NF is the deal.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: bphillips]
#6857697
08/15/17 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,956
Jgraider
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Oh ok didn't know that haha
I definitely agree with needing a turret you can make changes with. If I ever got a vx6 for a hunting rifle it would be a plain MOA turret and not "custom"
These make it easy, they work great, and they're tough. It's not near as difficult as the experts here think it is. http://customturretsystems.com/Also, to say I disagree with FJG's posts just for the sake of disagreeing is erroneous, as you have to give a schittt what someone says to do so, and in his case I don't.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: EasyMoney]
#6857705
08/15/17 10:31 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
THF Trophy Hunter
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It's pretty simple inside of 400 or so yards if you know all your particulars (ie true bc, velocity and site offset) and can be fine farther if you know twist direction and enviromentals. Tubb's reticle is essentially a bdc but a well thoughtout and designed one.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: Jgraider]
#6857787
08/15/17 11:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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CDS are hunting scopes. They also will make a straight MOA turret instead of load specific if you want
Evidently that went over the fireman's head. He obviously missed the posts where I've repeatedly said that for constant twisting of turrets, NF is the deal. I missed nothing. You claim yours has worked every time beyond 500. I call Unless you shoot the exact same location, in the exact same conditions every single shot. Physics are physics, no matter what you want to believe otherwise. And by the way, I watch bullets go down range 52 weeks a year and record data from it. So just because you want to disagree, doesnt mean you are right. At least not here in the real world.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: Jgraider]
#6857791
08/15/17 11:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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Also, to say I disagree with FJG's posts just for the sake of disagreeing is erroneous, as you have to give a schittt what someone says to do so, and in his case I don't. Your previous actions around here, prove otherwise. More
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: J.G.]
#6857819
08/16/17 12:03 AM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,956
Jgraider
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CDS are hunting scopes. They also will make a straight MOA turret instead of load specific if you want
Evidently that went over the fireman's head. He obviously missed the posts where I've repeatedly said that for constant twisting of turrets, NF is the deal. I missed nothing. You claim yours has worked every time beyond 500. I call Unless you shoot the exact same location, in the exact same conditions every single shot. Physics are physics, no matter what you want to believe otherwise. And by the way, I watch bullets go down range 52 weeks a year and record data from it. So just because you want to disagree, doesnt mean you are right. At least not here in the real world. I can take what you say and divide it by 2...then it will be close. You've got a B&C ego though. Congrats.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: Jgraider]
#6857828
08/16/17 12:13 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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Still maintaining being a tool. Congrats.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: EasyMoney]
#6858120
08/16/17 05:55 AM
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 560
CharlieSierraDelta
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This whole thread is funny. Ive shot, and placed matches shooting a 200 dollar sightmark on a factory gun, Shot and placed a different match with a different factory gun, shooting factory loads in a caliber no one shoots, with a cheap Vortex Crossfire2 scope. Last weekend I shot a over a mile and made first hit on 5th round with a crappy Vortex HS-T SFP scope.
I literally crack the F up when I read 6 pages of people using their scope as a crutch.
And, as Jeremy knows, the TOP shooters in PRS are shooting Vortex. Are they the best glass? Nah, Best I have looked through has been Premier, AKA Tangent Theta. To PRS guys, its about the sponsor.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: CharlieSierraDelta]
#6858146
08/16/17 10:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,228
J.G.
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To PRS guys, its about the sponsor. Friend of mine was sponsored by US Optics. He had so much trouble he sent the scopes in for the second time and advised them he did not want them back. S & B sent him a scope. I wouldn't say "all about the sponsor", the scopes HAVE to work.
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Re: Scopes made in Japan
[Re: EasyMoney]
#6858163
08/16/17 11:16 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
THF Trophy Hunter
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I've not met one shoter who got a scope for free unless it was pulled from a prize table. They might not have paid full price but they did pay something.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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