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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6529618
11/07/16 12:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,836
603Country
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We all have error, but have to determine how much error is significant. I shoot deer in the lungs and have done so for over 50 years, with a succession of rifles. Pretty much all were shot with holdover, and with my first rifle - a 35 Remington - needed plenty of it, and I was darn good at it. It actually caused problems when I went to a 270. Under pressure (time pressure) I tended to shoot high. I still have to be careful with that.
If I was going to shoot deer in the brain stem, it would be much tougher than the lung shots I take, and the degree of error I live with when lung shooting would not be acceptable for the brain stem shots.
I'm beginning to get a strong feeling that we holdover guys and you turret guys just aren't going to agree on much. That's Ok, but sometimes when reading posts like this one I get the same feeling I get when folks show up at the front door to talk me into a new religion.
Makes me think back to the biggest buck I ever killed - an 11 point, with a kicker - that weighed 275. I was hunting a narrow ROW through woods in the lowlands along the Mississippi River. The ROW is about 35 or 40 yards wide, max. It was getting real late and real dim, and ground fog had moved in. I was in an elevated blind. I looked right...nothing. I looked left and "holy s___". He was already halfway across and moving quick. Many points. I could see that, and knew he was more than an 8. I got the gun up (270), and as his head disappeared into the brush on the far side of the ROW, I put the crosshairs about 6 inches below the top of his back and dropped the Ballistic Tip square through the heart. I didn't know the distance then, but knew that from where I aimed, the bullet would hit lungs or heart. It was a 268 yard shot. No time for turrets, which I didn't have, and no time for much serious thinking. It was 'gun up, safety off, crosshairs on, squeeze, breathe'. Maybe 5 seconds elapsed. Just plain old fashioned holdover. Mock it if you wish.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6529626
11/07/16 12:55 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,053
bo3
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I think we need a long range forum.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6529645
11/07/16 01:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,195
Tactical Cowboy
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What's the size of a doe's brain stem? That's how I kill does, he may want to the same way.
Everybody around here will tout shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Well, I helped him find where to hold the duplex reticle for perfect shot placement. Be it CNS or heart/ lungs.
You, or anyone else, will NEVER convince me shooting with a known error, and not correcting it, is the right thing to do. Fair enough. Then why do you go out of your way to convince others that it is wrong when it work for them? I don't. Point being, go out, and find where your holds are in what ever scope you have. Thousands take for granted what is on the box of ammo, and never test it. I get that, and thousands never shoot past 150 yards. I understand holds on a duplex, and I also know most folks will never shoot a deer past 200 yards. I won't advocate anyone shooting a game animal past their effective range, and I admire those that put in the time to extend their effective range. However, most deer in TX are shot well within that 200 yard mark, which basically makes both sides of the argument null and void.
Last edited by Tactical Cowboy; 11/07/16 01:02 AM.
The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: 603Country]
#6529726
11/07/16 01:38 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,260
J.G.
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603Country,
No disrespect. But you still haven't wrapped your head around the fact that I am not solely a "turret guy". I use holds 52 weeks a year and have EVERYONE use holds that come to my place. Because everyone needs to know how to make corrections in holds, when time is short. I'd lay $1k that I can pull of some great shots, very close to very far away, everything in between, and never touch the scope.
Some of the best kill shots on animals I've ever made were with a hold. It is absolutely something I believe very strongly in. But the precision part is that I know exactly where to hold, in the reticle, for distance, and know exactly where to hold, in the reticle for wind. Often times having to perform both simultaneously.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: bo3]
#6529731
11/07/16 01:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,260
J.G.
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I think we need a long range forum. How does 100, 200, and 300 yards with a .270, and a duplex scope, with no turrets have anything to do with long range?
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: Tactical Cowboy]
#6529749
11/07/16 01:43 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,260
J.G.
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What's the size of a doe's brain stem? That's how I kill does, he may want to the same way.
Everybody around here will tout shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Well, I helped him find where to hold the duplex reticle for perfect shot placement. Be it CNS or heart/ lungs.
You, or anyone else, will NEVER convince me shooting with a known error, and not correcting it, is the right thing to do. Fair enough. Then why do you go out of your way to convince others that it is wrong when it work for them? I don't. Point being, go out, and find where your holds are in what ever scope you have. Thousands take for granted what is on the box of ammo, and never test it. I get that, and thousands never shoot past 150 yards. I understand holds on a duplex, and I also know most folks will never shoot a deer past 200 yards. I won't advocate anyone shooting a game animal past their effective range, and I admire those that put in the time to extend their effective range. However, most deer in TX are shot well within that 200 yard mark, which basically makes both sides of the argument null and void. It is not null and void with the man that came to my range. He told me his average shot has been 180 the last few years, and 300 was quite possible. He came to me for help, and I helped. He also said he has never had place to confirm, precisely what he needs to do for the variable distances. There is a THF member that sent me a PM telling that he just wants be a better shooter at 100 yards, and doesn't necessarily want to shoot farther. I said, sure no problem, we can do just that, and I won't push you any farther than you want or need to shoot.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6529790
11/07/16 02:03 AM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 15,836
603Country
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Oh. Well, ya never said that before, or maybe I misread, which I often do. It seems that we are on the same side of the discussion after all. I like that, since I do respect your knowledge and skills and your sharing of that knowledge.
And I am very fond of my turreted scope and will get another one this Saturday.
Yes, holdover works fine, but within limits (distance limits, which is max 400 yards for me), and I think you made the point that a fellow needs to verify those holdover assumptions. Absolutely true. And you may have noticed that I favor calibers that are about 3000 fps MV. That is purely due to holdover and trying to be sure that my various rifles have close to the same holdovers. KISS principle.
Not my monkeys, not my circus...
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6529823
11/07/16 02:15 AM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,979
Jgraider
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I'd lay $1k that I can pull of some great shots, very close to very far away, everything in between, and never touch the scope.
Wow! were you in the military, or you ever been to Camp Perry? That's what I call confidence.
Last edited by Jgraider; 11/07/16 02:17 AM.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: Jgraider]
#6529834
11/07/16 02:21 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,260
J.G.
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Nope. Thousands of rounds behind a rifle, shooting and spotting.
There's a list of guys on this forum I'd lay the same money on to do the same things.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: 603Country]
#6529840
11/07/16 02:24 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,260
J.G.
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Oh. Well, ya never said that before, or maybe I misread, which I often do. It seems that we are on the same side of the discussion after all. I like that, since I do respect your knowledge and skills and your sharing of that knowledge.
And I am very fond of my turreted scope and will get another one this Saturday.
Yes, holdover works fine, but within limits (distance limits, which is max 400 yards for me), and I think you made the point that a fellow needs to verify those holdover assumptions. Absolutely true. And you may have noticed that I favor calibers that are about 3000 fps MV. That is purely due to holdover and trying to be sure that my various rifles have close to the same holdovers. KISS principle. I've mentioned it many times, but it gets missed for some reason. That's fine. Thank you for the compliment, sir. Nothing wrong with keeping your holds close to each other rifle to rifle. That's putting you on the way to having them memorized, which I bet you do. All you need is distance and you can make the shot. Sometimes speed counts, I get that. Good for you, for being prepared.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6529884
11/07/16 02:47 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183
Mike Honcho
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It's an assumption but following this thread I believe FJG is taking the MPBR principle and making it an exact science. Fwiw I think anyone serious about accuracy and shot placement should keep an open mind with him. He's clearly stated holds are just as crucial to the game as clicks of scope. Each has its place in a given circumstance. He's not bashing the mpbr concept of a hold imo. He is merely saying to trust factory ammo specs is foolish, which if you've messed with a chrono you'd know what's listed and what ya get are two different things. So why not establish concrete holds not just 1.xx" high when from box to box or even shot to shot you aren't getting repeatable results. The whole premise with mpbr, which I personally do like is based on consistent flight paths. Factory ammo usually won't give ya that.
“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6529890
11/07/16 02:50 AM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,979
Jgraider
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Nope. Thousands of rounds behind a rifle, shooting and spotting.
There's a list of guys on this forum I'd lay the same money on to do the same things. Do you know Todd Hodnett?
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: Jgraider]
#6529938
11/07/16 03:14 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,260
J.G.
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Exactly Jorge! Thank you, sir!
Know who Todd is. Watched all the 500+ minutes of his and MAGPUL's videos. Took two little notes. Nice guy, great shooter.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6529967
11/07/16 03:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,183
Mike Honcho
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That's why with my Burris ballistic plex or B&C reticle on my Leupold's I break out the yard stick to get subtentions. It gives me an idea of distance in inches from one power to another. Problem is past 300 and that yardstick gets tricky to read lol.
Give the man a break. He does know what he's talking about. And I've never met the guy but he seems genuinely interested in giving accurate knowledge to the forum. Just be glad hes not a blabbering fool.
Last edited by jorge; 11/07/16 03:29 AM.
“Two things that define an individual what you do when you have everything, and what you do when you have nothing."
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: Mike Honcho]
#6530014
11/07/16 03:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 23,204
Bee'z
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It's an assumption but following this thread I believe FJG is taking the MPBR principle and making it an exact science. Fwiw I think anyone serious about accuracy and shot placement should keep an open mind with him. He's clearly stated holds are just as crucial to the game as clicks of scope. Each has its place in a given circumstance. He's not bashing the mpbr concept of a hold imo. He is merely saying to trust factory ammo specs is foolish, which if you've messed with a chrono you'd know what's listed and what ya get are two different things. So why not establish concrete holds not just 1.xx" high when from box to box or even shot to shot you aren't getting repeatable results. The whole premise with mpbr, which I personally do like is based on consistent flight paths. Factory ammo usually won't give ya that. Post of the year in the Rifles, Shotguns & Handguns sub forum
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6530137
11/07/16 11:37 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,797
P_102
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JG: "Well, that depends on target size....."
Charles: "In other words, you have no clue as to the meaning of MPBR - but you feel qualified to criticize it anyway."
Charles, this is a shining example of why you would be better off just reading and learning. MPBR is COMPLETELY about target size, even the article you put a link to points it out. P_102
Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: watchale]
#6530479
11/07/16 02:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,499
charlesb
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So did y'all find his mpbr? Well that depends on target size. He could've hit a house door without making a hold for elevation. So you didn't help him find a good mpbr? Like how far he could shoot without going over 3" high and 3" low out to a certain distance ? Of course not. That might lead to responsible, sportsmanlike behavior in the field - And that is not compatible with encouraging people to engage in game sniping at extreme ranges, as opposed to actual hunting.
Kind regards, charlesb
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: charlesb]
#6530488
11/07/16 02:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,260
J.G.
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Nothing but white noise. Completely not paying attention.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: P_102]
#6530494
11/07/16 02:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,499
charlesb
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JG: "Well, that depends on target size....."
Charles: "In other words, you have no clue as to the meaning of MPBR - but you feel qualified to criticize it anyway."
Charles, this is a shining example of why you would be better off just reading and learning. MPBR is COMPLETELY about target size, even the article you put a link to points it out. P_102 Read again. It is primarily about responsible, sportsmanlike hunting. The size of the game animal's kill area is one factor, not THE factor. Maybe you would get more out of it if you had someone read it to you. - For my part, I had no trouble understanding the over-all concept at the first reading. - And you apparently did not.
Last edited by charlesb; 11/07/16 02:57 PM.
Kind regards, charlesb
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6530541
11/07/16 03:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610
JTPinTX
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First off, MPBR has everything to do with target size, if you are doing it correctly. The first step is to determine the size of the target (vital area size/2). It could be 2" for a coyote, 3" for a deer, 4" for an elk, whatever you determine. That gives you the max above/below line of sight to figure your max range with. It you don't understand that, then you don't have a correct concept of MPBR.
I have three rifles that are set up for shooting LR using MIL reticles and or dialing. I usually leave them dialed for 200 yards when I am in the field. That is a relic of many many years shooting a modified form of MPBR with a bunch of different rifles. Basically if it is under about 225 yards, I put the reticle in the center of it, maybe shade a bit high or low just depending, and kill it. As long as I have plenty of target size to do so. If it is a small target or tough shot, then I take the time to get the proper holdoff and either dial or hold it in the reticle. Anything past 250 and I am going to my dope chart and dialing/holding exactly.
I have a bunch of other rifles I shoot a modified MPBR with, rifles with std duplex reticles. Basically, I zero everything without a scope that dials dead on at 200 yards. That way I don't get confused about different rifles, and where they are zeroed. I know, that isn't true MPBR. But is is pretty close to where that is with an average rifle, maybe 50 yards short or so. I know top of the arc is right around 165-175 yards, depending on cartridge, and at that distance I shade a bit low. By 225 I am holding a couple inches high. Without a scope that dials, I really don't like to shoot past 250 or so. If shots at that distance are a possibility, then I take a rifle that dials.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of my system since it is hybrid system that doesn't really make any sense to anyone but me. But I have shot it, and shot it, and shot it, to where I know where these rifles shoot. I can shoot any distance to 200 right here at work, and I shoot 4-5 days a week. I know the rifles are zeroed, and I know where the bullets are going at those distances.
To be quite honest though, I rarely carry a rifle in the field that doesn't dial anymore. It is just so much easier a system for me.
Last edited by JTPinTX; 11/07/16 03:21 PM.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6530565
11/07/16 03:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,797
P_102
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MPBR is not "primarily about responsible, sportsmanlike hunting"....hitting the vitals so your quarry does not suffer is....MPBR is simply one of many ways to so. And, yes, the size of the vitals area and ability to hit it is THE factor, it's why the article was written and published. P_102
Out.
Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6530684
11/07/16 04:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,124
LandPirate
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I'm not sure why anyone is upset with this post or why there's any bickering.
What I take from this is 1) Don't trust published/advertised ballistics/trajectories from manufactures, and 2) Verify what your rifle and ammo are doing at various ranges.
Seems pretty logical and common sense to me.
Thanks for the report Fireman.
Mike Buda, Tx Hunt near Freer
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: LandPirate]
#6530721
11/07/16 04:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,609
SapperTitan
Taking Requests
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I'm not sure why anyone is upset with this post or why there's any bickering.
What I take from this is 1) Don't trust published/advertised ballistics/trajectories from manufactures, and 2) Verify what your rifle and ammo are doing at various ranges.
Seems pretty logical and common sense to me.
Thanks for the report Fireman.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: LandPirate]
#6530734
11/07/16 04:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,260
J.G.
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I'm not sure why anyone is upset with this post or why there's any bickering.
What I take from this is 1) Don't trust published/advertised ballistics/trajectories from manufactures, and 2) Verify what your rifle and ammo are doing at various ranges.
Seems pretty logical and common sense to me.
Thanks for the report Fireman. Because there are people that hate me, and I can do nothing right in their minds. And they feel the need to cause trouble at every opportunity. And that's fine, if that's what entertains them.
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Re: Did some MPBR testing today, and with a .270
[Re: J.G.]
#6530746
11/07/16 04:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,182
Dave3575
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it's the way you wear your hair. it looks so sloppy
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