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A question for the experts
#6368328
07/13/16 11:20 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Texas Dan
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What causes a given rifle to shoot better and produce tighter groups with certain brands and/or loads of ammo?
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6368373
07/14/16 12:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,108
Michael W.
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Harmonic balance. Thats why hand loading works so well. You can tune the balance. This explains it better than I could. https://www.shootingsoftware.com/barrel.htm
A clear conscience is often the sign of a fuzzy memory.
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6368405
07/14/16 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,273
blackcoal
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^^^^ plus little fellows known as gremlins that attack barrels and bullets and powders and burning rates even to the point of how much the ammo has been transported. And don't forget good lady Mother Nature with temps and humidity and pressure of her own.
The Greatest Enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6368427
07/14/16 01:00 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 19,332
ChadTRG42
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The Science of Ammunition- where do you start!!?? There's lots to discuss. Ask a more detail question, instead of such a broad range, and I'll help. In a nut shell, it boils down to the right powder and powder charge for the right bullet and caliber used.
I find it interesting when I hear a shooter say "my rifle doesn't like that bullet". Most of the time, the rifle doesn't like the load (i.e.- the powder and powder charge used) with that bullet. I have taken MANY rifles and dialed in a very accurate load with my custom ammo on a rifle with the same bullet that didn't shoot well in factory ammunition. The customer is usually surprised when I get it to shoot.
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6368461
07/14/16 01:44 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,105
RiverRider
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I don't doubt that, but sometimes you DO find that a rifle really just does NOT like a particular bullet---for whatever reason.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/T84Bps5.jpg) "Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6368462
07/14/16 01:45 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,614
Texas Dan
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Do rifle manufacturers take such things into account when designing gun barrels? It would seem necessary to tout their "out of the box" accuracy.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6368466
07/14/16 01:54 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,105
RiverRider
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Other than rate-of-twist and the way the freebore is cut, generally NO. Ammo is designed to function well (hopefully) in guns the way they are made, not the other way around.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/T84Bps5.jpg) "Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Michael W.]
#6368539
07/14/16 03:10 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,922
Mickey Moose
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6368901
07/14/16 03:24 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 329
bside
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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shortest answer I can give: The end of your barrel moves up and down in something that approximates a Sine curve during firing: you want the bullet to exist the barrel at a peak so that you're not inducing an additional force vector on the bullet, not on the way up or down. You get to that peak by tweaking the amount of powder and the COAL (jump/jam) of the loaded round.
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6369069
07/14/16 05:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,502
Blanco
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Something I find interesting is using Quick load to come up with a better load. I mistakenly thought that the load that was most efficient would be the most accurate. Such is just not the case. Some of my best shooting loads are in the 85-89% range. I know I should have known better...it can only predict based on the numbers.
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: bside]
#6369427
07/14/16 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,614
Texas Dan
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shortest answer I can give: The end of your barrel moves up and down in something that approximates a Sine curve during firing: you want the bullet to exist the barrel at a peak so that you're not inducing an additional force vector on the bullet, not on the way up or down. You get to that peak by tweaking the amount of powder and the COAL (jump/jam) of the loaded round. Your explanation has me a liitle confused. Would not the points at which the waveform crosses the zero axis be the point where you want the bullet to exit the barrel. Whatever the case, the diagram explains how barrel length and makeup, as well as other factors that impact bullet velocity (powder charge, bullet weight, rifling twist, and even the burn rate of the powder) all play a role. Still, the most accurate rifle in the world, from a design perspective, is no more accurate than the capabilities of the one pulling the trigger. It's a fact wasted on those who somehow believe that even though they seldom practice, they are as accurate as their rifle.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6369457
07/14/16 11:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,105
RiverRider
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Dan, you want the bullet to exit when the speed of motion is at a minimum, which is at the maximum and minimum values of deflection. Where you cross the x-axis, the speed of motion is maximum.
In fact, some say that you want the bullet to exit the muzzle as it is approaching the very top of the peak. The theory is that if your lowest velocity round (taking shot-to-shot variations into account) exits just as the muzzle reaches the top of its vibration pattern, then the other shots which are higher velocity will exit a tad bit sooner BEFORE the muzzle is at its zenith. This helps compensate for the minute differences in trajectory due to velocity differences. Benchresters have told me that when the rifle is tuned properly this results in minimal vertical spread at a particular range---but ONLY at that range. If the rifle's tuned up for 100 yards, then it won't shoot well at 200.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/T84Bps5.jpg) "Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: RiverRider]
#6369633
07/15/16 01:15 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,614
Texas Dan
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Dan, you want the bullet to exit when the speed of motion is at a minimum, which is at the maximum and minimum values of deflection. Where you cross the x-axis, the speed of motion is maximum.
In fact, some say that you want the bullet to exit the muzzle as it is approaching the very top of the peak. The theory is that if your lowest velocity round (taking shot-to-shot variations into account) exits just as the muzzle reaches the top of its vibration pattern, then the other shots which are higher velocity will exit a tad bit sooner BEFORE the muzzle is at its zenith. This helps compensate for the minute differences in trajectory due to velocity differences. Benchresters have told me that when the rifle is tuned properly this results in minimal vertical spread at a particular range---but ONLY at that range. If the rifle's tuned up for 100 yards, then it won't shoot well at 200. Thanks. This makes complete sense. In lay terms, you want the bullet to exit the barrel end when it is "still", which occurs at the peaks of the shockwaves that bounce back and forth along the barrel axis. This would produce a specific ballastic performance, meaning the rifle and scope could be set to the zeroing preferred by the shooter with that round. It would be a matter of trial and error to determine what round will perform in this way with a given rifle.
Last edited by Texas Dan; 07/15/16 01:22 AM.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: blackcoal]
#6369652
07/15/16 01:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,102
Bbear
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^^^^ plus little fellows known as gremlins that attack barrels and bullets and powders and burning rates even to the point of how much the ammo has been transported. And don't forget good lady Mother Nature with temps and humidity and pressure of her own. And don't forget you have to hold your mouth right! 
[IMG][/IMG]
Pay it forward - Kids are the future.
Rifles are similar to boats and young women...there's no end to how much money you can pour into them without making them any more useful.
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6369701
07/15/16 02:21 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 329
bside
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
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shortest answer I can give: The end of your barrel moves up and down in something that approximates a Sine curve during firing: you want the bullet to exist the barrel at a peak so that you're not inducing an additional force vector on the bullet, not on the way up or down. You get to that peak by tweaking the amount of powder and the COAL (jump/jam) of the loaded round. Your explanation has me a liitle confused. Would not the points at which the waveform crosses the zero axis be the point where you want the bullet to exit the barrel. Whatever the case, the diagram explains how barrel length and makeup, as well as other factors that impact bullet velocity (powder charge, bullet weight, rifling twist, and even the burn rate of the powder) all play a role. Still, the most accurate rifle in the world, from a design perspective, is no more accurate than the capabilities of the one pulling the trigger. It's a fact wasted on those who somehow believe that even though they seldom practice, they are as accurate as their rifle. No, because the barrel *is moving* up/down at those points, you want a point at which it's not moving/moving as little as possible. Think of flicking a spinning top inducing wobble and causing the top to fall over earlier -- that's the type of force we're trying to avoid. look at any slice of time on the graph, you want the least vertical dispersion possible for a given time (plus/minus a small window of each side)
Last edited by bside; 07/15/16 02:22 AM.
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6371821
07/17/16 04:26 AM
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 376
cblackall
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 376 |
To add to what everyone else has said about harmonics, and touch on Texas Dan's question about manufacturing. Every piece of steel is different in the way it will act. Chemical composition and stress from manufacturing, along with other factors will affect the way a barrel behaves. Two identical rifles, rolling off the assembly line one after the other will exhibit different characteristics in relation to load development or ammunition preference. Each has its own personality. They may like the exact same load, or be on opposite ends of the spectrum.
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: Texas Dan]
#6375386
07/20/16 02:49 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,614
Texas Dan
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All good information and posts.
I'm sure many others besides myself learned something.
"When the debate is lost, insults become the tool of the loser."
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Re: A question for the experts
[Re: RiverRider]
#6375515
07/20/16 04:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 132
strobes
Woodsman
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Woodsman
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Other than rate-of-twist and the way the freebore is cut, generally NO. Ammo is designed to function well (hopefully) in guns the way they are made, not the other way around. Just to add to the comment - you have to use correct ammo. And here is know-how. http://www.shilen.com/calibersAndTwists.html
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