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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: J.G.]
#6233953
03/23/16 05:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2015
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flintknapper
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Care to see a windage chart of both? Give me a cartridge you shoot, with what bullet you shoot.
.458 SOCOM Case Trim 1.573" CCI 350 Primer 405 gr. Remington Jacketed Soft Point: Bullet Length = 1.0" SD 276 BC .28136.5 grains Alliant Reloder-7 1660 FPS average 16" PacNor Super Match Barrel, 1:14 twist How far you plan on shooting that? What's the BC on that bullet? See fourth line. BC .281
Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: flintknapper]
#6234503
03/24/16 12:29 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,258
J.G.
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5 mph, 3 or 9 o'clock
100 yards .3 Mil 200 yards .7 300 yards 1.0
Right after 300, you're subsonic.
If it were in MOA
100 yards 1 MOA 200 yards 2 1/4 300 yards 3 1/2
7-8 mph, add 50% to the holds 10 mph, double the holds 12-13 mph double, plus 50% 15 mph, triple those holds
Wind angle changes to 1-2 o'clock, cut the mph holds in half.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6237201
03/26/16 02:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 9
Insayn
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I don't think it matters as long as your reticle matches your turrets. At work I use Mil turrets with a Mil reticle. When doing windage formulas I have a little extra math to convert it to Mil. If shooting matches where speed counts you could dial in the median range and use hold overs and unders on the reticle since they match. As long as you are proficient with whatever you choose it doesn't matter.
Last edited by Insayn; 03/26/16 02:22 PM.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6237329
03/26/16 05:32 PM
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spg
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I have MOA scopes and I get it, MILs is a easier unit to use because you don't have the fractions to deal with. I'm familiar with MOA just because I've almost memorised my charts but I'm going MILs and FFP with the next scope. Most likely going to be the Burris XTRII.
Last edited by spg; 03/26/16 05:37 PM.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: spg]
#6237354
03/26/16 06:04 PM
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Posts: 41,258
J.G.
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I'm going MILs and FFP with the next scope. Most likely going to be the Burris XTRII. I've got one in for review. It is the SCR Mil reticle in the 3-15X. Man they got a whole lot right on this scope! In my opinion it blows Viper PST out of the water.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6237395
03/26/16 06:56 PM
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Posts: 1,682
cmorsch
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I like both, but for me they each have their own place. For my long range shooting past 1k I currently like a MOA SFP scope as it has finer adjustments and a thiner reticle, something along the lines of the NF ATACR MOAR-T but that is also because all the MIL based scopes I have seen have a bunch of extra crap in the reticle I dont want/need for ranging silhouette's. For "Tactical" shooting or faster shooting I like a Mil based FFP scope.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6239725
03/29/16 02:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 8,076
Cool Mo D
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As usual, FJG has all the answers.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: spg]
#6240170
03/29/16 02:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,426
jeffbird
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I have MOA scopes and I get it, MILs is a easier unit to use because you don't have the fractions to deal with. I'm familiar with MOA just because I've almost memorised my charts but I'm going MILs and FFP with the next scope. Most likely going to be the Burris XTRII. I have both and prefer MOA. When looking at 1 MOA hash marks on the reticle and comparing to the bullet hole on paper, estimating 1/2 or 1/4 between the marks is easier for my eye and mind's eye to estimate correction than looking at a reticle with 1 MIL or 1/2 MIL hash marks and then trying to estimate the correction needed in 0.1's from looking at the paper. They both are doing the same thing, work the same way, but are just different names give for the same concept providing different sizes of the same measurement. For use in estimating distance, MILS are easier to use as long as meters are used for distance. For yards, MOA still is easier and I can do the math in my head. Trying to convert MILS to yards for distance estimation is not something I can do in my head. Ranging with a reticle is doable, but very imprecise beyond 400 or 500 yards. MOA's have proven easy to use in the field to estimate deer antler inch sizes, which is really a nice benefit. Whichever is chosen, the turrets must match the reticle.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6240176
03/29/16 02:21 PM
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ChadTRG42
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^^^ Correct. The main issue I see with MOA turret scopes is the lack of a good MOA reticle. Most are some trashy BDC type drop chart or some proprietary reticle that the mfg is pushing at that time. The MOA scopes I use have the Nightforce NP-R1 moa reticle, which I think is the best moa reticle offered.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#6240181
03/29/16 02:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,426
jeffbird
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^^^ Correct. The main issue I see with MOA turret scopes is the lack of a good MOA reticle. Most are some trashy BDC type drop chart or some proprietary reticle that the mfg is pushing at that time. The MOA scopes I use have the Nightforce NP-R1 moa reticle, which I think is the best moa reticle offered. Agreed, the Nightforce NP-R1 is my favorite although the MOAR is a close second.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6240184
03/29/16 02:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
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spg
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I have two NF NP-R1 and both a SFP so I don't use the reticle. I only use the turrets.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: spg]
#6240196
03/29/16 02:39 PM
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ChadTRG42
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I have two NF NP-R1 and both a SFP so I don't use the reticle. I only use the turrets. I use the reticle all the time. At full power, the reticle is 1 to 1. At half power, the reticle is double, or 2 to 1 in size. I learned on a 2nd focal, and still use them in competition. I prefer a second focal, since the cross hairs are much thinner at full power.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: spg]
#6240197
03/29/16 02:40 PM
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jeffbird
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I have two NF NP-R1 and both a SFP so I don't use the reticle. I only use the turrets. Why not? With any reticle regardless of the units of measure, one quick method is take the point of impact (the hole) and then use that as the point of aim. With that method, units of measure and FFP vs. SFP do not matter. To make clear, the bullet hole becomes the new center or "crosshair" to use as the aiming point. Very quick to use. As usual, I agree with Chad. SFP has a thick reticle at low power and a fine reticle at high power.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: jeffbird]
#6240227
03/29/16 03:10 PM
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J.G.
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I'll say again, my ONLY problem with MOA is holding wind. The wind "chart" for Mils is so easy that a guy can see it one time, for 30 seconds and have it down. The wind chart for MOA is something that has to be documented, and/ or tons of time spent memorizing.
Yesterday I had two guys out. One shooting a .308 with Mils in FFP, and one shooting a 6.5 CM with MOA in FFP. As I was converting the MIL wind I had memorized into MOA, I spoke the math out loud so they both could hear it. At the end of the day the MOA shooter told me that the day reinforced his thoughts of switching over to Mils. I never tried to bash his MOA scope, or talk him out of it. It proved itself with him shooting in a varying angle wind all day long.
FFP vs. SFP?
Mirage got very soupy and all of us had to turn down from maximum magnification to be able to see what was going on down range. I also had them shoot from barricades, and unsupported positions, there again they turned down magnification to about 10X to 12X, as I usually do. Reticle was still correct, and no math was involved.
Should MOA go away? No. If I were in a different type of shooting scenario I can see it's benefit, but they type of shooting and hunting I do I will never want or need MOA.
If a die hard MOA guy wants to spend a day with me on the range I am more than happy to work with him all day long in MOA, and make him better.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: jeffbird]
#6240256
03/29/16 03:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
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spg
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Jeff, I'm still a little confused about your theory. When I shoot a target and lets say the POI is off to the left 6in at 300yds I know to adjust 2 MOA right on the turret. The point I was trying to highlight about SFP is the reticle is not accurate at different magnifications, NF claims it is at full magnification. Typically there is usually too much mirage to use full magnification unless its overcast. I'm sure your theory works but my shooting consists of shooting at known distance via range finder and somewhat known distances to feeders or ranging the deer or whatever it may be then referencing my range card on my phone or laminated copy in each blind.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: spg]
#6240318
03/29/16 04:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
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jeffbird
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When I shoot a target and lets say the POI is off to the left 6in at 300yds Whether using FFP or SFP, do not think about inches or centimeters of correction needed, think MOA or Mil of correction needed. The measurements are of angles of correction needed. Look through the scope. Use the hash marks as a ruler/reference point. If the hole is two hash marks to the left of center, use that hash mark to aim for the next shot. The unit of measure does not matter. If the hole is between two hash marks, use that as the point to aim for the next shot. Use the marks on the reticle as reference points to hold for the next shot. If you want to dial with SFP, then yes, have it on the reference power, or a multiple of that. My usual method is to dial elevation and hold wind. Precision matches are a game unto themselves, and I am not discussing that.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6240331
03/29/16 05:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
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spg
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Gotcha now Jeff, I'm a little slow.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: jeffbird]
#6240342
03/29/16 05:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,258
J.G.
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Jeff's hammer met the nail on the head.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6240346
03/29/16 05:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,030
spg
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Getting serious around here!!
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: spg]
#6240354
03/29/16 05:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,982
ChadTRG42
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Jeff, I'm still a little confused about your theory. When I shoot a target and lets say the POI is off to the left 6in at 300yds I know to adjust 2 MOA right on the turret. The point I was trying to highlight about SFP is the reticle is not accurate at different magnifications, NF claims it is at full magnification. Typically there is usually too much mirage to use full magnification unless its overcast. I'm sure your theory works but my shooting consists of shooting at known distance via range finder and somewhat known distances to feeders or ranging the deer or whatever it may be then referencing my range card on my phone or laminated copy in each blind. If you drop down to 11 power (11x on a 22x power NF scope), then your reticle is double the hash marks. So each 1 moa hash mark is now 2 moa on 11x. If you dial down to 5.5x, then the hash marks are 4 times the amount. I use this all the time. Also, if you are using your reticle correctly, you never calculate 6" to the left at 300 yards. I use the reticle to measure where the bullet impacted (2 moa to the left in this case) to where I was aiming, and make my correction (hold 2 moa to the right, and resend the round, all done in a matter of seconds.) Yes, the second focal plane scope handicaps you slightly when needing corrections when you are not on max power setting. But if 22x is too much, then 11x will work fine for me, and double your reticle hash mark.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6240361
03/29/16 05:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
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ChadTRG42
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The main thing I tell shooters, is FORGET inches all together. "Fugget about it!" Use the scope in mils or moa, and forget about inches!!!
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: spg]
#6240501
03/29/16 07:10 PM
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jeffbird
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Gotcha now Jeff, I'm a little slow. Not at all. Nice to have some good dialogue.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6241680
03/30/16 05:25 PM
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spg
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Definitely gonna try it next time. I've trained my brain to cross reference inches to MOA but I can see using the reticle will still be quicker.
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6251953
04/08/16 01:01 PM
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J McCoy
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Re: Mil vs MoA Polls (Attention: FiremanJG)
[Re: Mickey Moose]
#6497290
10/16/16 04:38 AM
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Posts: 2,030
spg
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OK, got a new used NF in MIL's, trying to delete inches/MOA from my medulla and see if I like it if not it will be for sale.
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