Still doesn't answer the question Bobo. It is either one or the other. If what you are saying is true, explain the panhandle. Long season but same limit as Kansas. If what you are saying is true, why is Texas so much longer?

And again, it is not as simple as a one sentence explanation. There are many more factors than your "either or".

You keep talking about harvest numbers, but my argument has been the target on mature deer. Looking at the examples you provided, where are you more likely to see mature deer as a percentage of the herd?

At night

Said earlier most complaints I see are from folks who won't pay for MLD leases, but would rifle hunt in Oct if they could. The whole, "I can't do it so neither should you" approach.

(Up until TPWD started letting everyone & their dog go MLD, the only ones in the area were the big, well established, expensive leases that you had to "know a fella" to get on.)

"You are just saying something to say something. I've deer hunted over 40 years and nobody thinks dove and squirrel hunting affects deer like, well, deer hunting."

No sir I'm not. Your entire argument was that the gun hunters disturbed the deer in October. The disturbing factor HAS to be the rifle shots. Because ALL the other hunting activity is being carried out by bow hunters as well. Driving roads, filling feeders, putting out cameras, picking up cards etc.

I just pointed out (validly) that there are MANY more gunshots fired during October by squirrel and dove hunters than rifle deer hunters.

It greatly contradicts your argument.

"Because ALL the other hunting activity is being carried out by bow hunters as well. Driving roads, filling feeders, putting out cameras, picking up cards etc.

I just pointed out (validly) that there are MANY more gunshots fired during October by squirrel and dove hunters than rifle deer hunters.

It greatly contradicts your argument."

Great Points...They are Working Ranches, it does NOT disturb the Deer.
It's really a simple process of patterning a animal..Not Rocket Science

On our place, dove hunting goes from September through October and there are 1k's of shells shot each weekend. I don't hold much stock in this argument either.

Additional deer hunters in the woods does seem to have an effect, especially when centered around feeders.

If it was that simple, we would all get the specific deer we were after every year. This is complicated stuff man!!!

It's not the same. But I ain't gonna argue. If you want to try and sell that opening up October to hundreds of thousands of rifle hunters won't have any effect, go ahead.

At some point all these red-herring silly in-the-weeds arguments have to give way to the obvious.

It's amazing the stuff that is argued in these types of deals.

New hunting traffic/pressure all of sudden is the problem, no matter what your weapon of choice is. The deer are patterning you from your first morning hunt and after day after that.

Jshouse wants to respond.....maybe even deleted a response or 2.

Yes. And multiplying deer hunting traffic by an order of 20 who now have rifles instead of bows will have an effect.

Amazing to me that anyone would try and argue otherwise - especially those who hold themselves out as experienced hunters.

I did...you just don't need to move around so much

Let them come to you ...
It's not like Rabbit Hunting, you cant drive around and chase them till they run in a circle

What would be the difference if all 1.2 plus million hunters who bought a license started bow hunting the opening day of archery season? Same amount of traffic as on the opening day of general season. I can guarantee you any experienced hunter knows that you see less and less deer after the opening weekend until the rut starts.

Sure. But that ain't gonna happen because most of those folks aren't going to bowhunt. If they did they would be doing it already. Season's open and there - has been for 50 years. They want to rifle hunt during October instead.

Which is the whole reason for this discussion.

When did Texas have a draw for tags for whitetails?

Again seasons are about long term sustainability. They are in accordance to probability of reaching a percentage of harvest goals..

Texas is unquie in that majority of the state needs to hit harvest goals to improve herd health,


The how agruement about Tradition is dumb. It's never ever been about tradition, saying that show complete lack of understanding of why we have seasons.

Again same reason why MLD has become so popular.

Hunting is Hunting...Pressure is Pressure

No, it's not. Dove hunting and squirrel hunting ain't deer hunting. And rifle hunting ain't bowhunting.

And even if pressure is pressure, more pressure is more pressure.

Why do you worry about pressure on your niegbhors place? I encourage my neibghors to apply lots of pressure

Good for you. You just destroyed all justification for HF. (Not that I buy your premise.)

P.S. I thought deer didn't travel in your world.

Pressure is Pressure, you are incorrect.
You are basing your thoughts on your on conditions..TPWD has the entire Hunting Community in mind.

You have me mistaken, I have never argued about tradition. Just arguing the fact that season duration doesn't have the same effect that bag limits does. You have already stated that season length doesn't matter, yet you keep bringing it back up for management purposes. 2 months is ample time to fill your 3-5 tags in areas that require it.

MLD has become popular because people can get in the woods earlier. It allows rifle hunters an opportunity at mature deer and many times, well before they start breaking antlers. There aren't many ranches that actually need the extended season to fill the quota for management purposes.

Lots of folks don't give a whit about tradtion and think it's dumb. I'll grant you that. Mostly young folks who are all about getting hearing their rifle go bang and getting them a buck on the ground quick and easy. HF, October, February, whatever.....

It's the new normal in the era of Waddell and company......

There's always border deer and always core deer. Fence just divides border deer to two sides and moves their core over, not all but most. nothing more nothing less

In 40 years of hunting you should know this by now.

Who's Waddel and company ...is that a hunting show, I don't watch hunting shows, I'm normally out hunting.

How big is the core, how far will they travel...never mind, we have had that argument before and it is for a different day

As far as the topic at hand, additional pressure does move that core area and travel distance. Pressure for 3 months instead of 2 does make a difference. A bow hunter will put more pressure on the deer in most cases than a rifle hunter, but there is a correlation between the overall number of additional hunters once rifle season starts. IME, there is a valid argument that opening the season early to rifle hunters will make a difference on the habits of the deer because of the added pressure.