I don't know if this has been posted yet

But looks like possibly some changes for next season

http://tpwd.texas.gov/newsmedia/releases/?req=20160205a

Thanks, I hadn't seen that yet!

I'd like to see the East Texas changes, but not likely I'll get to the Panhandle or buy a muzzle loader.

Very interesting about the spike vs unbranched antler. That throws people off when it comes to the extended season. During regular season if it is unbranched on one side it is legal but the extended season it must be a true spike. Sounds like they will make an unbranched on one side will be legal in the extended season. Not sure how I feel about that. I wish they would just make it spikes and 13 inch+ spread for regular and spike/doe only in extended. Being selfish here but seeing a kid or now adult take a 3 year old deer with half a 19 inch rack broken off cause it is legal is not best management. Take a doe or spike...

I would love to see the muzzleloader season.

When are they going to implement the Special Early Velvet Spike One Antlered Cross Eyed Sling Shot Season? This is just getting ridiculous in my opinion.

Kinda hard for some to take a doe in east Texas if they don't bow hunt. One weekend season doesn't give you much time to get it done.

Nothing has divided the deer hunting community more than separate seasons based on hunting methods. And there is no question that it was done in large part to create new markets for equipment. If the decision were mine, there would be a single season that included all methods.

Thank you for posting this info.

I agree 100% Dan.

I'm glad to see they are defining "unbranched antler" since that has caused a lot of confusion. I would almost bet it will be an antler with no point, which is defined as at least 1" long. If so, it will be like the 13" rule. Hunters will be checking deer with binoculars wondering if it is 1" or 3/4".

I agree, but I bet most on here don't.

I would vote for it.

One season...all methods....keep youth seasons and adjust limits in the "by county" bag limits.....

I would love to have a time during gun season to kill a doe in Karnes county. Only can shoot a foe with bow during archery at the moment. Even if I only had one week to do it and could only shoot one I'd be thrilled. I'm not into killing young spikes for a second deer every year and killing a 13inch or better every year just doesn't happen.

I totally agree even though I do bow hunt.

I don't. There's nothing "divisive" about a separate bow season. The bow season has never taken a single day away from the over two month long gun season. Everyone has the same opportunity as everyone else - if you want to hunt with a bow, then learn to use one and go hunting.

Wanting to ruin bow season just to get another month to use a rifle is what's divisive.

wish they would lower the bag limit in hopkins co. make it one doe with the it being all season and not just 4 days and one buck, spike or 13in not both. Hunted a whole week this year during the rut and never saw a deer! did kill a nice deer in dec but very few deer.

wish they would lower the bag limit in hopkins co. make it one doe with the it being all season and not just 4 days and one buck, spike or 13in not both. Hunted a whole week this year during the rut and never saw a deer! did kill a nice deer in dec but very few deer.

How would it ruin bow season? I see guys in the bowhunting thread having plenty of success during gun season hunting with their bows. I haven't seen one post from them that they stop hunting during gun season because the bowhunting is ruined after it starts.

There is a huge difference in hunting quiet woods and undisturbed deer on feeding patterns transitioning to pre-rut than hunting with a bow during rifle season.
Introducing hundreds of thousands more hunters into the equation with rifles tends to make a difference. That should be obvious.

Many other states all over the country have traditionally had long bow seasons and short rifle seasons with no problem. Texas has had the separate bow season in October for over 50 years. It wasn't set up to "sell equipment" (though allowing crossbows recently was). It did not take a day from the rifle season - which has always begun at the beginning of November. It has never been "divisive". Ever. In fact, no one has had a single issue with it until relatively recently.

It's just another grab being pushed by folks who don't want to do what it takes to bowhunt. Just like so many other trends in hunting and in general to make things as easy as possible. Texas already has one of the longest rifle seasons in the nation. We need to leave bow season alone.

I personally would like to see the seasons aligned. There are those of us that can't draw a bow do to injury. Muzzle loaders have developed to the point there isn't any difference between them and standard center-fire rifles. For those of us that lease it evens the playing field on a chance at a great once in a lifetime buck.

Why does the playing field always have to be "even"?

One has always been able to use a crossbow with an injury exception. Now, you can use one during bow season without exception. If you want to hunt the bow season you have always been free to do so. Even with a physical limitation.

The October bow season was set up for those wanting to accept the additional challenges of bowhunting. For over 50 years no one has had a problem with that.

The only thing that is changing is people's attitudes.

Because I pay just as much as everyone else. Last time I asked to pay 2/3 of the lease it didn't go very far. lol



Dont't take this personal but why on earth would I choose a less effective means of killing than the optimal. Me personally, I'm trying to kill for food and nourishment and not trying to prove my skills as a hunter. I am in favor of starting rifle season at the beginning of October so I can maybe get one more hunt in each year.

That's why they allow crossbows.

I personally like the separate seasons. Two months with a rifle is a very generous season. Archery is more difficult and the harvest numbers are lower, look at the counties or states that don't allow rifle season at all or limit them to late season after the rut.

Part of my fear on combining all the seasons is that they would reduce it down to just the two month rifle season, not make rifle season 3 months.

I wish they would move doe and spike season to the last two weeks in Oct not 2 weeks after the general season. Makes no sense to me to have this season after the rut.

There are leases that only allow rifle hunting and leases that only allow bow hunting. You can get on one of them to "even the playing field."

You don't have to "choose" to use a less optimal means of killing a deer, but you do have the choice. Just because you choose not to do it, shouldn't take away others choice.

Again, don't see them allowing a 3 month gun season, as the 2 month season is already pretty generous. Been wrong before though.

All you are really saying is:

1)I don't personally want to accept the added challenges of hunting with a crossbow; so
2)Therefore, I want all who do accept the challenges of bowhunting and get extra time to pursue those challenges in quiet woods with a lot fewer hunters to give all that up so it can be easier for me.

The playing field is "level" now. You can bowhunt just like the rest of the guys on your lease. You just want a new field with new rules in your favor.

It's the trend of the future. I get it.

X2

Shooting bred doe isn't cool

I haven't seen what you are talking about here. All three of my places (including the low fenced ranch) are under MLD and are hunted by both bow and rifle hunters. Three separate regions: hill country, south Texas, and west Texas plains.

Gun and bow hunting simultaneously from October 1 through the end of feb. I have found over the past 15 years that gun hunting in October doesn't make any significant change in normal deer behavior in any of those three regions.

I always encourage my hunters (both gun and bow) to go for trophies in October. They pattern so much better then, and it makes no difference if guns are fired then. On all three ranches we have seen several mature bucks be missed by rifle fire and walk right back in to the same feeder within a few minutes.

Rifle hunters are getting screwed by the bow only season under standard season dates.

I personally think all deer seasons should start October 1st and go through the end of February. I have no problem managing my populations, and hunters are allowed much more flexibility and opportunity.

Especially when it rains 15" that weekend!!

JR

They should do away with bow only season and just make a deer season with any legal weapon. I don't think it right that you have to enroll in MLD to hunt deer with the wepon of your choice in October. Since vast majority of land in Texas is under private ownership I do not see how it would make a difference. I also don't get the late muzzleloader season. It also should be any legal wepon. Texas parks and wildlife already has controls on how many deer you can kill....what difference does it make if it's killed with a arrow or a bullet?

Ain't nobody getting "screwed".

Just folks wanting a bigger pie who don't want to bowhunt because it's harder. Everybody wants it easier.

So they say stuff like "it makes no difference" when even a little bit of common sense would show it makes a big difference. Introducing hundreds of thousands more hunters shooting rifles would make a huge difference.

If you want to take the position that you want a bigger pie for more folks to have it easier, then just own it.

Where I have the issue is when folks say it doesn't make a difference or "its all the same". It's not. Bowhunting is harder - that's why both participation and success rates are so much lower.

The extra month was given over 50 years ago solely for folks willing to accept the added challenge. Again, no one has ever had an issue with it until lately.

Some of us don't want to hunt with a bow (cross-bow or not) because we have a life-time of hunting with rifles. We're interested in the various calibers and bullet-weights and the endless discussions that are had about them. There's also the tradition. If you are a reader, you've got a hundred years of hunting experiences WITH RIFLES to relate to.

I have no interest in shooting big game with a shotgun, either. I'd be wishy-washy about muzzles loaders, but now they're pretty much just like center-fire rifles anyway, so no point to them.

If we are going to keep those seasons, let's go back to trad bows only and open-sighted flintlocks.

And yes, the early bow-season does take something away from us as the bow hunter gets a head start on the biggest deer. Just because a lease might be rifle only, it doesn't mean your neighbors just across the fence won't be bow hunting.

ONE SEASON!

MULTIPLE SEASONS!

The argument can be made that bow season actually puts more pressure on the deer than rifle hunting would. Scent, noise, access (because you have to get closer), etc could be more influential than someone sitting back at 100 yards.

•In addition, the department is looking to implement additional “doe days” in 23 counties; and

4 days turnin folks loose on doe with a rifle is way to many to begin with in my area

Muzzleloader season will be cool though.. wish they would allow archery with it

Like many, you just want it easier for you. To heck with those who accept more of a challenge you don't want to accept. Again, the separate bow season is nothing new and nothing everyone cannot participate in if willing to do so.

There's not one iota of "unfairness" involved.

I explained at length why only rifles can tie in to the tradition of hunting I have. It has nothing to do with easier. AND that bow hunters get an unfair shot at the best deer. You can get the same challenge of bowhunting in an all-weapons season. Too hard, you say, well then it is YOU who want things easier, isn't it. I thought you like the challenge, LOL.

Just another in the trend where everyone wants the same prize without the same challenges. (Or more $$ in some cases - pretty easy to see why those "in the business" would love year-round hunting.)

It's only "unfair" to you because you aren't interested or willing to do it. Period. Nobody is hindering you from participating.

when Texas harvest numbers actually cause a decline in Whitetails then season specific matters.

Many states have short rifle seasons because they can't handle the higher harvest numbers associated with rifles. Nothing more nothing less

Lots of whining to make things easy these days. Plus wanting what someone else who is willing to work harder has.

Pretty familiar.....

TX has the largest harvest numbers in the nation. Just fine overall. No need to from a biology/harvest # standpoint to expand an already liberally long rifle season.

I am neutral at this point for one season for all weapons. Bag limits won't change one bit for anyone. Your lease or if you own the land will not change their bag limits for a longer season(if you have set 1 buck and 1 doe for example). You just get longer season. Landowner can still dictate when you start, when you stop and how many deer you can shoot. That has not ever changed unless the landowner wants it. The one big concern for me will be the pressure on the mature buck population with many bucks getting killed due to the longer season. A lot of those bucks live for an extra year or two due length of season now. I see one season happening in the next couple of years though. Choice of weapon might not change for many with the season length who have a preference already.

Lol!! You are now the spokesman for all hunters pertaining to the bow season set 50 years ago? Funny, I see you must of missed a few opinions based on what I've read on this thread so far.....

But seriously, I agree with therancher. Our experience with MLD hunting has been the same. We actually don't have the mistakes made on younger deer because we have ample time to hunt when weather and life gets in the way of plans and schedule.

I do not believe based on feed back from bowhunters that gun hunting will ruin hunting for them. If gun hunters move like tanks around the battlefield according to you NP, then that gives the quiet bowhunter a advantage, not disadvantage.

Bottom line, deer/hog numbers are continuing to increase while hunter numbers continue to decrease. Don't be surprised to see a longer season.

You see the bow and muzzle-loader seasons going away in the next couple of years? I can only hope, but what makes you think that?

Nailed it...

Making one season is making it "go away" for practical purposes.

Y'all can try to sell that deer aren't affected by rifle season and wouldn't be affected by an earlier rifle season if you want, but it's BS. Anyone who hunts whitetail deer knows travel and behavior patterns change when hundreds of thousands of hunters hit the woods and the rifles start going off.

There's no reason to do it other than just make it easier for folks for no good reason other than to make it easier for folks.

Can't you just be satisfied with two plus months the way it has always been?

Always the Authoritative on all things Hunting Pitchfork...Didn't you realize that..


STX pretty much nailed it IMHO...

If they make that Season Longer I hope it's on the tail end FYI

As I noted earlier, nothing has divided the deer hunting community more than creating separate seasons based on hunting methods.

Let's hope the state wildlife agencies and product manufacturers don't find a way to do the same with fishing.

I think the one you should ask that question is TPWD. They are the ones bringing this into the discussion of proposed changes.

And if your wildlife numbers continue to increase and hunter numbers decrease wouldn't logic tell you to make it easier to harvest the game?

I don't see much point to the muzzle-loader season, but I have one and would likely take advantage of it. Other than no quick second shot, it is pretty much rifle hunting, though.

I like the fact that bow and rifle are split, even if it means I'm out $$$$ for having to own both types of equipment.

Just repeating we want it easier doesn't make it so. It sounds like you are the one who wants it easier.

As for a single season, we could compromise and make it one week longer at the start and at the end. In the Hill Country, the rut starts on October 31 or thereabouts, so rifle hunters miss most of it.

I think all this was brought up due to TXDan's post about it. He hates bowhunters.
Harvest #s are fine. If they aren't fine at some point, increase the bag limits - which has always been the method in managing harvest numbers.

Your words, you think bowhunting would be harder in rifle season. IOW, you want things easier for you.

No, I just don't want them ruined or affected for me to make it easier for folks who don't want to work as hard as me.

Believe it or not, quiet woods with few folks around is important to many who bowhunt. I know that's not easy for the "just gotta shoot something as easy as possible" folks to relate to.

Which is why one season will probably come to pass - since most folks want their deer and want it easy.

It's stupid for a guy who wants to rifle hunt only to be arguing with a bowhunter about wanting it easy. But that's the kind of stuff you run into when folks want to push an agenda.

Yes it was TXDan expanding the conversation to why not make it a 3 mo season all weapons.... which I said I would vote for. I do believe this is the direction we are heading for the reasons I just mentioned. TPWD continues to add more hunting days by adding more weapon days.

And being a bowhunter myself, I think your wrong about how important it is for the woods to stay quiet. Case in point: I hunt with other forum members in Northern Missouri every first week in Novemeber, bowhhunting. This also coinsides with the youth gun opener. We hear shots going off periodically all around us. It never spooks the deer we're looking at and we have arrowed many P & Y bucks during this hunt.

Whatever you say PP.

hence the expansion of the MLD program, and the State's creation of the program. The only countries that couldn't handle a simplified all weapon season are already archery only. Same with TX public properties.

It's like baiting for ducks if you have to stop at 6...why does it matter. Oh because it's an out dated law ment to help stop market gunning. Feel the same way about Texas seasons especially since majority of land is private and landowner sets the property's total limits on whitetails for the most part.

Why would someone want to restrict another persons hunting options on private land? The number of deer harvested (maybe)..... But the weapon used to kill them?? I guess I am missing something or just don't get it. Just because 50 years ago they implemented a bow season to allow a doe harvest does not mean it's still a good idea.

It is there as a separate opportunity/chance to have an earlier start for those who are willing to accept the challenges and range limitations of bowhunting. Simple as that.

NO ONE IS RESTRICTED. ALL MAY PARTICIPATE.

Many feel as you do. It doesn't matter to many (maybe most) as long as the greatest chance for an animal hitting the ground is provided. Let it all hang out. I get it. I have for quite some time.

Respect for added challenge and tradition are pretty outdated concepts.

We can't participate with our weapons of choice. Shooting a deer with a bow means nothing to me.

The same type of person that wants to tell how and where you should hunt, or whether or not your hunt was a "real" hunt. The "my way is the only way" type of fella.

Agree with NP particularly on small low fence lease's. May not be the same on a large acreage lease with heavy deer population.

You can't participate in Feb-Sept either. Or beyond legal bag limits. Or at night. Or with a .22. Or with a machine gun. Or.....Or.....Or.....

It's your right not to care about bowhunting. Right now, it's not your right to infringe on the October bowhunting season by hunting with a rifle. I just want to keep it that way because I do care about bowhunting. Many agree with me. We may not be even the majority, but we do want it kept separate.

But, you don't care about that of course. Because it's all about what you want. Got two months, but want three. Those who don't like it or are affected can pound sand.

What a load of crap.

One of my friends on the forum shot a double beamed B&C monster on 30 acres while the youth gun season opened all around him. It was still bow season only except for the youth gun opener. If you want to see the buck it won the forum cover photo contest for April 2015. I took the pic.

Like I said if you have to stop at the county limits why does it matter? Whitetails don't migrate

you act as if I don't bowhunt, when that's how I hunt 90% of the time.

No such thing as tradition. Season dates are set to control populations period, based of efficiency.

If it was about tradition we wouldn't have online muzzleloader a, wheeled bows, scopes etc.


If Texas had an over harvest problem we wouldn't have MLD programs or 5 tags.

Have you ever taken a whitetail with a bow? Just curious

Yeah, and after a month of rifle hunting this year the deer on our place were spooky as hell. I'm talking 800 yards out they're running for the hills at the sight of a truck they see nearly every day. How's that last couple of bow weekends going to work after several weeks of rifle fire?

Don't you have control of that if bowhunting is affected by it?

We don't want three months of rifle -- we just don't want bowhunters and muzzle-loader hunters to have more seasons than we do.

No, and I don't desire to. It's meaningless to me. I don't even like to watch bowhunting on TV. But I don't care if someone else wants to hunt with a bow. Just have the same season as the rest of us.

I never "acted" one way or another about what you do.

You are of the general position that not much "matters" when it comes to means or methods. I respectfully disagree with that mindset.

There is such a thing as tradition. I'm sorry many don't see that anymore. The older folks I grew up hunting with never once expressed a problem with a separate bow season. Unlike folks today, they respected folks taking on an added challenge and having a special season for them to participate in that endeavor. I get the world has changed in that regard in this era of "smoothing the way" for everyone without regard to willingness to put forth additional effort.

I never said TX had an overharvest (or underharvest) problem. All I said is harvest issues are best and most practically handled with bag limit adjustments - as it's always been. Not season length adjustments.

I don't recommend starting now. You may find yourself putting down your precious rifles after your first bow kill

Well, that's nice.

I'm an oldtimer. Maybe the reason we didn't object is because we grew up in the era of Fred Bear. We didn't realize bows would morph into these ridiculous things we have now. We also didn't hunt over corn to make things easier.

And, for the record - I don't bowhunt exclusively. I pick up my rifle just like most folks when rifle season opens. So it's not an "elitism" issue. To the extent that it is, there are many, many who are way more "elite" than me.

Maybe it's because I didn't grow up in Texas, but I never looked at it as "X" type of hunter gets a different season. I just saw it as every single person has the exact same seasons and opportunities, its just that some don't take advantage of the bow or muzzle loader season. This thread has sure opened my eyes to some different perspectives.

For many in TX it is all about everyone having it as easy as possible. Just the way it is.

Can you imagine if they hunted in somewhere like Kansas where bow season is mid-September to the end of December...but rifle season is 10 days and is late season after the rut

That's actually exactly where I was thinking. That ten days sure makes you look at Texas's season differently.

The similar argument there would be to add two days to each end of the rifle season and take away bowhunting altogether (unless one wanted to bowhunt during rifle season).

Nailed it...

"People with narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy."

You forget what you wrote?



Contrary to the image of me you would like to push... That's not my reasoning.

seasons are set using a long term sustainable wildlife goal. Fact

You won't ever see me pushing my self imposed limitations on anyone. Fact
I only bowhunt out west Fact

It's not about what hits the ground it's about people being outdoors and sustainable harvest. Landowners currently control limits. It's a whitetail with a home range... Obviously state feels the same since we have The MLD program

I don't feel like I am this type of person at all. I like the separate seasons and am not sure that I would have ever picked up a bow if it didn't come with the early season bonus. Now, I rarely pick up a rifle, even during rifle season. I don't fault or look down on anyone that does though.

IMO, you aren't restricted by rifle hunting, you get a bonus month for bow hunting. Texas' rifle season is one of the most liberal in the country and we get to rifle hunt the rut, which isn't the norm for many of the states that I have checked into.

But to say that I want to restrict someone because I actually like the split seasons is a false statement and I sure don't mock anyone's style of hunting.

I don't hunt with a muzzle loader but agree with the season and have a few hunters on our place that enjoy it. I have no issue if they can hunt longer because they choose a different weapon because I have the same opportunity.

I'm not imposing jack. The separate bow season has been in place for over 50 years. The ones wanting to change that are the ones seeking to impose something on others.

+1.

How is that? when did MLD allow you to trespass and poach deer on others property ?

You wear me out with all the extraneous and irrelevant stuff you bring up Bobo. I'm too tired to play.

I can't figure out how that's irrelevant... And impeding on others?

How are choices impeding? Who would of thought options based off sustainable harvest on private land was impeding on others.

Just read what txshntr wrote. That's basically been my position throughout this whole thread.

I'm sure it will go down easier for many since I didn't post it.

Get yourself a Beer. It will make you think better.

LOL maybe it will help me with my narcissistic personality disorder too.

In KS he is right, those seasons are set on how the state can Maintain sustainable numbers. Thus why weapon restrictions on ML's also

In TX he is wrong. He is excluding people for selfish reasons, it has nothing todo with sustainable numbers.

FYI his biggest deer die in Dec

Nobody is being excluded. Folks are just making choices whether to participate or not.

That sounds like one season pick a weapon to me.

Mandate wood bows and arrows in archery season and watch opinions change.... Traditional

Whatever you say.

If there was one general weapon season from Oct till end of Jan you can still choose to hunt with whatever weapon you want and when you use it. No one will force you to choose what weapon you have to hunt with. The LO can still dictate seasons and bag limits however he chooses. Bag limits are still set by TPWD and then the LO can set his own limits at a lesser amount if he chooses. Most LO now are limiting lease hunters to 1 buck and x amount of doe per a lease spot. Most LO could care less how those animals are taken or when they are taken. I hunt in an AR county with one buck over 13". It does not matter whether I take it in archery or general season now(with a bow, crossbow, or rifle) or in ML season, I still get one buck only. I can take one spike antlered buck(depending on season) and does only in archery or via WMA MLD permit with weapon of that season. In my area taking a buck with archery is better late Oct when the rut activity starts. If I were farther west it would not be as good of hunting in Oct as it is in Nov. and it gets even better in Dec. If you are hunting a particular mature buck, then it does not matter when you start hunting him in the heat of Oct., the bucks are not moving that well in the daylight hours. In the Hill Country the rut was going full tilt in mid-Oct and chances of getting a mature buck were much greater no matter what you are hunting with. The chances of a mature buck being broken up in late Oct go up greatly also.

again sustainable harvest is truely all that matters, how you hunt is your choice.

hows your knapping going?

So anyone know what exactly they are proposing to add or change for muzzle loader season, what counties?

You've lost your mind again. Quitit! The only people that hunt my land are people who I let hunt my land. EXACTLY how you let people access your land!!!

Step back and look at how ridiculous your statements are!

My lord, anyone know what day bow season starts this year?

You've lost your mind again. Quitit! The only people that hunt my land are people who I let hunt my land. EXACTLY how you let people access your land!!!

Step back and look at how ridiculous your statements are! [/quote

But those thousands upon thousands of rifle hunters are going to ruin his hunting experience! Ay pobrecito!

I like the split seasons as well even though I don't bow hunt as much as I used to. There are options in place for folks who need the rifles out to manage numbers. Even most of the area MLD places are bow only the first 2 weeks then open rifle season mid-Oct to take advantage of when the older bucks really start hounding the does. I've purposely cut out bow season & ML season on the place we have set up like a lease. It's a bad move to pressure those deer in Oct when completely surrounded by public land. It could go MLD, but I've watched harvest quotas ruin too many good properties around there. As far as counties with no ML season....it really makes no sense to not have the option if there's a 2 month rifle season.

I disagree as far as bad moves are concerned. Until we have data that shows populations kept in check or declining it's all speculation....if, buts, candy and nuts.

I think you misunderstood what the bad move was. Not the season, but pressure to push deer out on this particular place. The place I normally hunt gets treated the same way and deer pile onto the refuge when others start hunting.

I haven't read or seen anything that indicates overall harvest numbers are out of kilter one way or the other. None of the proposals in the OP seem to reflect that as a concern.

...and folks choosing to bow hunt public end up bumping deer to us m. Another place in not even concerned..I've blocked off all access to public land unless you are one seriously dedicated hunter. That place is bow only all year.

ARs and possible expansion of it addresses that. That's a different dead horse though.

From simply a tradition/comfort/enjoyment standpoint, I don't see why the general hunting public as a whole would be too excited about opening rifle season when the mosquitos are still biting and high temps in the 80s and 90s are the norm.

Because those people would like to hunt the rut before the deer are all broken up and with a weapon of their choice. They will still have the same amount of tags on their license. They will still have a limited numbers of buck tags and doe tags. Many states start seasons in Sept.

September bow season sounds awesome

No...then we'd have to listen to you complain about how all the deer leave in August.

In KS, it is because it is too easy to kill those deer during the rut with a rifle. They allow archery during the rut because it is more difficult and the harvest numbers are down.

There are counties and ranches in Texas that follow that example for the same reasons.

While my argument is based on selfish reasons to an extent, as you know, I bow hunt 99% of the time. I haven't heard a valid argument from the side that wants "one season" that wasn't selfish either.

I do like the choice and the chance to hunt the deer first since I am choosing to hunt them with a less efficient method of hunting. Every year, we hunt specific deer and it is known that if we don't kill them during bow season, they will die as soon as rifle season starts simply because they are easier to kill with a rifle.

Just like I have a choice to pull out the rifle to shoot those same deer, I choose not too. A rifle hunter has the same choice to pull out a bow and hunt them when I do.

And yes, I kill many of my better deer late season, but our best hunting and best chance at a specific animal with a bow is early season. They are easier to pattern.

As far as pressure, rifle season does make a difference simply because there are more people in the woods than during bow season. But I don't hold much stock in that argument because bow hunters push a lot of deer because they have to get closer. A great bow hunter will push more deer than a great rifle hunter, fact.

In my county the TPW biologist did a recap over the past few years to show how deer numbers have continued to grow with the AR's. More deer today than years past. In my area of the county I should be at a deer to 17 acres based on area surveys done by the WMA Coop. I am seeing a deer to 8-9 acres in that area. I am lucky that I get doe permits via the WMA under MLD to address the problem. I only know of one place close to me that is a member of the WMA that can get doe permits. Being able to at least kill two does during archery is great, but I am not seeing any less does from year to year other that what I take off. Don't think anyone is hunting archery season at all around me.
Biologist have long noted that our deer population is way over what it should be in many areas of the state and even inside counties. They are basing that off of habitat and what it should carry.

I complain about it every year in bow season...but I am still in the stand as much as possible

Many (I daresay most) folks are not all about the trophy harvest mentality. The tradition of gathering at the same time in early November when it's cool/cold is the way it's been since forever. Changing that for the sake of the die-hards who want an earlier shot at a "trophy" seems ridiculous to me.

Heck, I am not even that excited about bowhunting in early October from a conditions standpoint. This is Texas, not Kansas. September would absolutely suck.

We can carry a lot more than we have, I understand other areas simply cannot handle that many.

Then you literally love hunting the Gulf Coast/Avery Island subspecies in Sept during the rut...if they had a season in Sept.

Me too. But I sure like it better when the first cool spell blows through.

I am in Kansas every year in September...don't let it fool you, it is damn hot up there too

I usually hate it bc it seems to happen on the dove opener to blow birds out.

I literally just love to hunt and would hunt in August if they allowed it...

T

I'm sure it is.

I never mention "trophy" in my response. I said the "deer are all broken up". Your so called tradition of gathering in November was gone a long time ago with the advent of the archery season. Now we gather around a Thermacell and drink adult beverages all while the microwave is cooking supper.

We can't and it shows in the mature deer size and antler quality. We have the habitat just not for those numbers.

Some of us are...others are cooking steaks for the LO at the golf course.

You can...in East Texas

full of low blows today aren't we?

Don't be jealous, it saved me $10k

The folks I am talking about don't discuss the possibility of antlers being "broken up". And they don't bowhunt. They hunt family land or take their families to the deer lease in early November to sit around the campfire like they have done for years and years.

Not hating..I'm too busy trying fish for the game wardens..

Then nothing will change for them if the season opens in Oct for all weapons. They will still have their own tradition and traditional starting date. No new rule allowing them earlier rifle hunting would change that for them. Their choice still. Everyone else then will have a choice to start earlier or wait. That will be their choice also, not mine or yours.

You are from East Texas...so yours will probably pay off better in the long run

Opening Day is a big tradition for all seasons. Changing that would have a major impact.

Sat through a meeting last week with a group of lease board members trying to figure out why they've gotten their numbers so low killing max quota but body weight and antlers average have decreased.

You save 10k, I save 5-10 years.

That opening day tradition would not change with a rule. Those hunters make up their own lease rules and traditions within the limits of the laws. They still have a choice to do as they always have. No one can change that for them.

One good thing that could come with a 3 month rifle season is doing away with MLD and its administrative costs completely.

Ours is over population numbers. Same as most of the Hill Country. Habitat can only support so many on its own here with livestock competition in tough times. Mast crops keep them alive from mast crop to the next mast crop. Peaks and valleys in the food chain from droughts that bring poor quality nutrition.
My guess with the above meeting is there are declining or have been declining habitat issues. Purely a guess.

I'm fairly certain our land owner would not allow us to hunt an earlier rifle season if one was given since we can't hunt extended doe/spike or even hunt our trophy's during archery season. When it comes down to it some LO's don't want large numbers of animals shot or even legal limits.

That is a consideration from what I have been told. My biggest concern is the pressure on the mature buck side of the herd in areas that have an early rut.

so do you think they would add October or add January?

Dead ON...

Wouldn't do away with it, still would have the permits to issue, harvest data to collect, survey reports, etc.

It's just another desire by some for their own reasons (mainly ease to get their trophy and $$$) who don't really care about the impacts on others.

Like so many other things, it may come to pass one day. Numbers and (more importantly) influence on the TPWD Commission have come to rule the day when it comes to wildlife matters in TX over the past 20-30 years.

That is a common issue with many LO's. On the other side of that coin, there are many places that couldn't handle everyone on the lease filling their tags every year.

IMO, the same could be said about arguing against the change. I have said it in a previous post, I like the early archery but many of the reasons are selfish. The ones that don't want the early archery season have stated reasons that are also selfish.

I don't see how one is any different than the other, just a different opinion.

Habitat is improving. Lots of pine clear cutting and allowing mixed forest to naturally regenerate and clearing foodplots. Fawn recruitment % is the same with a slight dip in our 1 yr drought...by age class nothing was changing except fewer bucks and top tier deer from each class. They want it to stay a family lease with a lot of opportunity so I wasn't much help.

Like us. Best week of the year to hunt is always the end of bow season.

I simply don't consider it "selfish" when everyone has the same opportunity to pick up a bow (now crossbow) and hunt just like everyone else.

I sure don't accept the arguments of those who would call me "selfish" in wanting to keep things as they have been for 50 years plus for reasons that are obviously "selfish" and particular to them because they don't want to pick up a bow and hunt.

All the while making what to me are specious arguments like putting hundreds of thousands of folks with rifles in the woods would have no impact.

Just say "We want it, we're working on changing it, and we may get the numbers and influence to do so." Like it or not.

That's the reality of it. Just own it. I may not like it, but I can at least respect the honesty of that approach.

I don't see them doing away with it either, but wouldn't have to deal with messing with all that for properties to qualify. They'd then have their additional month with rifles so it falls on the LO to make their management plan work.

And I know no one cares about tradition and history anymore, but the fact is bowhunters fought a hard fight back in the 40s and 50s just to get bowhunting and the separate bow season accepted and established.

October hunting wasn't ever intended for rifle hunters. So, in a real sense, taking it away is taking something away that bowhunters fought for/established.

So, if you ever get a rifle season in October, you can thank the bowhunters of the past you took the separate season from for it.

I'd prefer January.

This talk of traditions made me think back to when I was a kid. You could ask a neighbor to hunt deer on their land. That tradition changed over time. Along came leasing. Deer season started always on the same day. That day was a school holiday in my town. That tradition changed over time. McMullen County had their own start and stop date for deer season. Deer season ended on Dec. 15th because the LO did not want hunters hunting the rut, they wanted that for themselves . That tradition changed over time. When I started hunting you could not kill spikes or does. Those traditions changed over time. There were still counties that had no deer season or a short 9 day season. That tradition changed over time. Seasons that were once shorter have gotten longer. That tradition has changed. Hunting camp traditions were amended to those new dates. AR's were introduced. That tradition is still adjusting/evolving and will change over time. Most all of the things I listed above were balked at, at that time. Many have changed their position with time. The tradition is still about hunting. How we choose to enjoy it is our tradition. No one can tell you how to enjoy your tradition. In all of these tradition changes the deer population has continued to grow while the habitat is getting smaller by fragmentation.

Sadly, both.

I do, because you can bow hunt during rifle season but a rifle hunter can't rifle hunt during bow season. All about perspective and which side of the fence you are on.

Either side of the fence has the same argument, just a different approach. All the arguments I have seen are emotional, either an emotional appeal or an emotional decision. Not alot of hard facts being thrown around. IMO, more good points for leaving it alone, but I am biased.

Long term issue causes long term problem that won't be corrected short term.

But things have not been the same for the last 50 yrs. There have been changes along the way. New weapon seasons, either sex tags, either sex season, longer season dates, new seasons for counties that had none, etc. Those are few that come to mind that I have seen in the last 50 yrs.
When did your county get it's first deer season? First archery season? Allowed to kill does off of the license in your pocket? Go to more than one buck? The list goes on and on. You accepted those changes, correct?

Well, I admit to emotion.

But it is a fact that changing things would negatively impact one group (bowhunters) for the purpose of benefiting others because they prefer not to bowhunt.

With a two month long rifle season already in place and MLD opportunities for Oct-Feb rifle hunting if they want it that badly I simply don't see the need on that side of the equation to justify the resulting impact on the bowhunters who enjoy the separate season.

Call that emotion if you will. But that's the way I feel. Not every law needs to be passed just because it will make things "easier" for some at the expense of others.

IMO, I think the drive to increase season length is to allow for more hunter success. Some counties need more hunter success to keep numbers in check. Others don't. More hunters success means more interest in hunting long term. More interest in hunting means more hunters. That is not a bad thing for the hunting tradition in Texas.

So which is it?

I liked some and hated others. I hate this one. You like it. I get it. The HF deal is much the same. It's here. I think it is ruining hunting. Many don't. I and those like me lost that one. I love ARs - many don't. They lost that one.

We may lose this one. It doesn't mean we are wrong. And it doesn't mean we are required to stand down or change the way we feel about it.

agreed. Im usually out of town that weekend. So I end up seeing lots of doe and nothing in my freezer.

stx arguing that bowhunters who want to keep the separate season want things "easier" is stupid. Period. Just silly word play.

The ones who want it easy are the ones for whom 2 months (or 5 under MLD) is somehow not enough for them to shoot their deer.

Emotion is always at play. But the dominant emotion these days seems to be envy/desire for more, more, more. And getting it easy, easy, easy as possible.

It's often disguised as "fairness" - but "fair" for only those that want it. It's simply Bernie Sanders' socialism come to the deer woods. I want it free. I want it easy. And I want it now.

You are wrong, I am not for it or against it. I am neutral right now. My only concern right now is that I think it will have a long term negative effect on the deer herd, even without changing bag limits. It will not effect me one bit if seasons stay the same as they are now. I hunt with every weapon allowed. I am for landowners rights do with their land as they choose within in the laws provided. I don't have to agree with it but it is their right, not mine. I love AR's, they just need to be worked on to allow more county to county modifications.

Well it proves one thing, Mr. Hooper. It proves that you wealthy college boys don't have the education enough to admit when you're wrong.

Like watching a Norma Rae video or the kid on the square with the Tank

That's been happening for 20+ years though. The place is being slowly moved away from your typical pine plantation timber property. Every year parts of it get cut putting browse at deer level. They're just killing too much and losing selection. I did convince them to bump age criteria by a year and alternate years on quotas. They've needed max quota to make the price of the place more acceptable, but folks will leave if the buck numbers aren't there.

At least we put our arguments out there and discuss it instead of just jumping in with an empty jab or insult and otherwise staying out of the debate.

I can train a monkey to do that.

Really? Did you not say what I quoted previously? I just quoted your "silly words" is all. Not my words but yours.

Where you the one who stated this? Sounds like you enjoy the "special season benefits".

99% of LO will maintain the same dates that are in place now to keep traffic to a minimum

I HAVE A SOLUTION!!!!!

Start rifle season 1st to October ending first weekend in January. Then make Bow, Muzzle loader, Dart gun and Blowgun season run through January. That would be fair to me.

I enjoy the quiet woods, used to not be so quiet. Apparently the die hard hunters who couldn't wait for some season to open to kill something are getting few & far between judging by the boom in the squirrel population.

Not wanting it ruined or affected does not make it easy. Quiet woods are about enjoyment and aesthetics also (outdated concepts I know). If you want to sell that bowhunting is as easy as rifle hunting, go ahead. The participation and success rate numbers tell the tale.

That is the way many leases are now, the LO has the say it what happens and when it happens. That won't change for many with a new weapon or season change. They will still set their own lease rules as they always have. If they do it will be the expense of the paying lease hunter. That is why we fight MLD on our Mule Deer lease. The LO would want more money and/or more hunters. Our lease could not stand that added pressure and continue to improve. As a hunter, I would enjoy hunting long for the mature bucks during the rut. But I do not want it in our case. The LO is driven by money, we are driven by quality of the hunting.

Quit woods... Hell let's ban rifle season and shooting guns period during bow season!!!!

Guess that means closing Dove season also

Our area won't for the most part. Most large tracts are corporate land with land usage contracts that roll with whatever dates the state sets. Having said that they've been on a stair-stepped program on mgmt to get properties of qualifying size to go MLD to increase recreational value since the timber market hasn't been paying the bills that well.

It all boils down to the fact that some can't stand the fact that those who are willing to accept the challenges and limitations of bowhunting currently have the first crack at the deer.

And many of those who choose not to accept those challenges and limitations resent it. They want that same opportunity. Without accepting the challenges and limitations that those who established that opportunity in the first place were willing to accept.

Everything else is just "spin".

Yes Sir I agree, plus there's Lambing Season

On places that I rifle hunted and bow hunted over the last 50 yrs, killing any deer was easy with either weapon. Killing a selected deer made it more difficult. Most hunters are not about easy. Lease/ranch location dictates how easy or how difficult that bow hunt can be. Lease/land size dictates how much quite you have and when you have it while you are hunting. Not a season start date.
For me hunting can be better mid-week than on weekends when my neighbors are on their place, no matter what season it is. They are all over their place all weekend at times since they do not bow hunt. Their land to enjoy as they choose. That will not change their activity with a season change.

Ban hog hunting also in archery season.

While I agree with you on the basis, I disagree with your stance on it. I don't think that it as simple as that.

First, there is the harvest control. Allowing rifles in early season will increase the number of mature deer that are shot. IME, the mature deer move less during the early season, but if you can catch them in their feeding patterns, they are easier to hunt. On my place, bow season offers the greatest chance at the mature bucks because we know where they live and feed. Later in the season, they are spread out and travel much more. With a rifle, they would be easy to kill. With a bow, not as much.

Second, there is the increased pressure on the ranch. This statement has been made by more than one post on this thread. Also, this goes into the comments about the LO restricting their ranch to the dates that are set now rather than allowing the extended season.

Third, there is the harvest control again. We are only allotted a certain number of tags as it is. Extending the season will not increase the harvest numbers IMO, it will be targeted at the mature deer more than anything.

Fourth, people hunting while others aren't. I would say "can't" but everyone has the ability to make the choice to bow hunt or not bow hunt. This is an emotional appeal on both sides of the aisle.

Fifth, is cost. Will leases go up since there is a longer season? Will hunters be willing to pay more? Will MLD leases decrease? Will the increase in opportunity at mature deer increase the average antler size on certain ranches, thus increasing the value of those leases? A lot of unknowns there.

The list can go on, but you get the idea. If it was as simple as you say, we wouldn't have a 9 page discussion about it.

I like that idea.. no hog killing at all during archery.

We tried that on our ranch...we were over ruled

I respect that. But I remain of the opinion that the basis for it is simple and just as stated.

The rest is just "after the fact" window dressing IMO.

I feel the same way about HF. All the "management" BS is mostly just BS. It's by and large about folks wanting easy trophies for the wall and other folks wanting a way to monetize that desire. In other words, $$$.

I have been around awhile. The first and easiest explanation for things is almost always the right explanation of things.

Okay

No Management on a High Fence Ranch ...that's truly comical

How a person who has me on "ignore" yet for years has followed my every post so he can post his insults and emojis is an interesting mystery to me.

What's insulting

That I said I debated your comment of no management on a high fence ...

So your saying that there is no management on a High Fence Operation is that correct

So we should be able to dictate to someone what animal they can hunt, if they can charge for the hunt, how they manage their land and when they can hunt on their own land?
The one thing I do know is that no matter what rules or regulations are adopted, they will always be as many who like them as to as many who do not like them. The "me" only mentality.....

" I feel the same way about HF. All the "management" BS is mostly just BS. It's by and large about folks wanting easy trophies for the wall and other folks wanting a way to monetize that desire."

I know of many places that work year round and are in a constant zone of maintain management practices of improving there operation

No, I just don't see how one can so quickly and consistently respond to my posts if one can't see them. That's all.

I'm not supposed to engage further. So I won't.

Exactly and we should in no way belittle or degrade them in doing so..
Because it's there rights as Hunters to enjoy those rights

That's actually not the case - or the point either when you get right down to it.

The words "mostly" and the phrase "by and large" have meaning. And purpose.

The state does dictate those things concerning game animals. I'd love to shoot a deer in March, from a helicopter with an RPG, but apparently it's frowned upon....so I just have to stick with using a front bumper.

That is your opinion which you are entitled to. I have my opinion, which I am entitled to.

There is your answer. Not any just any individual giving them, as an individual we can only follow the regulations we have been given. Not some individuals regulations they want us to abide by since it fits "their" own personal agenda.

Folks who recognize challenges and resulting accomplishment vary among endeavors are often these days labeled "belitters"or "elitists". Just the way of the world.

Ol' Bernie is winning a lot of votes with the argument.

It's just dismaying to see so many "conservative" hunters turn into socialists about hunting because respect for effort, challenge and resulting accomplishment is quickly going by the wayside.

I don't bowhunt for sheep, but I'll do nothing but support those that do, their opportunities, and honor their endeavor as something above what I will ever do or accomplish.

That was actually stated as a fact. A wrong fact. The majority of folks support many hunting regulations - ARs, bag limits, shooting hours, etc., etc., etc.

Though, still, it misses the point. Sometimes even the majority is wrong.

I'll remeber this next dove season when you post up a massacre

Yep..Called Laws

If quiet woods is what we are after then allowing suppressors during bow season should be no issue...

Honestly I would support one season for everything combined. The last lease I hunted didn't permit youth to hunt youth season it didn't permit bow hunters to hunt archery season either. Everyone hunted general season with whatever legal means they chose.

That's a LO issue, not a law issue. Passing sweeping laws that apply to everyone to make a LO fit your preferences is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If a LO doesn't like hunting at certain times, he still won't allow it.

Yes they are. However, as a LO no one should be able to tell me what to do. I should be able to hunt how I want, when I want and where I want. I'm entitled to that. If the laws don't align with that, I'll just push to get them changed so I can benefit from it. Anything besides hunting and we'd both likely label someone like that as a flaming liberal. I personally just like things to be left alone, especially when the state politicians get involved. (I really don't want to kill a deer in March, with a RPG...and I hate flying.....and would rather not have to get my bumper fixed either.)

Sic em Tiger....

Fire at will, Let me know how that works out for you

This agruement has gone circular

Correction debate has gone circular

1 day closer to season.

yep

I'm killing a monster this year.

Good......So we all can agree that getting rid of weapon specific seasons is a good idea. Thereby allowing individuals/landowners to decide what legal means are used to kill a deer.

I guess ones with big ears count....

Might kill one of those too. This one will be a 180 class 10pt.

why stop there, lets go ahead and let individuals/LO's decide when they can hunt and how many animals they can kill too, whats the worst that can happen?

whoa..thems impressive words sir...but I think ive seen him so I guess I have to think its possible, until you get jshouse'd again...

They come see me when season starts, they don't leave me.

They would be called privatization of wildlife. It has happened in a few other states. Some are pushing for that samething to happen here. I don't want that to every become a law.

At the end of hunting season who do you think is more happy, the land owner or the hunter.

So can we still Dove Hunt during Season

You mean the compound bow vs crossbow divide?

The deer.

Nope. Need to change that too...

As much as I am for private rights, people have shown us that they are not all good stewards of the resources

I don't know any. Everyone I know are much better stewards of the resource than any govt entity. Landowners have much more at stake than state or fed.

I certainly don't need laws telling me what to and when to harvest the crops my land produces. How ignorant would a landowner be to destroy the value of his property???

ah, but I thought the reason all those fences go up is because your neighbor with the barren 50 acres has 4 hunters on every fence waiting for the deer to jump, no?

would you trust all of your neighbors to run your place for a year with free reign on limits/seasons/etc?

c'mon man, I know you are for private rights and "no big government" but "people" can not govern themselves, in any aspect of life, period.

ignorant landowners are abound sir, I promise you.

Have passed on some big body spikes that had a "point" on one side. I'm absolutely certain that The Game Wizards will make it difficult for the hunter to make a "clean" call.

Not one to grab a biting dog by the ears. Just a personal observation I've noticed time and time again. One that has me practicing with my bow and setting up a tree stand or two. On my place Sept-Oct I see lots of deer. They pattern well and they just don't seem near as skittish come November. Me and my boys have a saying come November about the deer. "They got the memo." In other words they seem to know the rifles are out in force. I also enjoy rifle season, but again I'm going to experience taking them with stick and string and expanding my time in the field.

Now back to this blow dart season....with as much hot air found around this joint we should have some world class blow dart hunters.

^^^^^^ Is the most experienced

Could probably get a passthru on an elephant.

boom, roasted.

As much as I am for private rights, people have shown us that they are not all good stewards of the resources

[/quote]


I don't know any. Everyone I know are much better stewards of the resource than any govt entity. Landowners have much more at stake than state or fed.

I certainly don't need laws telling me what to and when to harvest the crops my land produces. How ignorant would a landowner be to destroy the value of his property???[/quote]

ah, but I thought the reason all those fences go up is because your neighbor with the barren 50 acres has 4 hunters on every fence waiting for the deer to jump, no?

would you trust all of your neighbors to run your place for a year with free reign on limits/seasons/etc?

c'mon man, I know you are for private rights and "no big government" but "people" can not govern themselves, in any aspect of life, period.

ignorant landowners are abound sir, I promise you. [/quote]

People can definitely "govern themselves". Quite efficiently.

While you are correct, we put the fence up to protect our investment. You are wrong to assume that we still need harvest laws. The reality is that BECAUSE of the fence, I don't need any outside interference in management.

And, my large low fenced ranch is bordered by large low fenced like minded managers. If at any point that changes, the high fence will go up. Government entities are not needed.

Good debate here with valid points on all sides. Tried to post earlier but was denied because quoting 4 thread deep. I'll leave it that it is interesting to watch a thread grow over time and get to the root of diversity in approach. Keep it up!

It's a good debate. I enjoyed it.

I'm not against change if needed. But this one is not needed. Harvest #s are fine, and if they weren't fine change in bag limits are always able to deal with that issue.

Plain and simple, it's just an "I want it" thing.

I will never accept the "selfish" label for wanting to keep the separate season. Why? Because everyone has the same opportunities as everyone else. Unwillingness to participate on someone else's part does not constitute selfishness on my part.

txhntr always tries to see both sides and be "fair". I respect that. And his statement about "rifle hunters not being able to hunt during bowseason" sounds like it makes a point at first glance. But it doesn't. Most bowhunters are rifle hunters too. We can't hunt with a rifle in October either. Again, it's fair. Everyone is in the same boat.

Changing it would favor rifle hunters at the expense of bowhunters. For no good reason other than some want what others enjoy without putting forth the same effort.

It truly is a socialistic concept, just like some want the same rewards as those who work harder, but don't want to work as hard to earn those rewards. And the cost is always paid by the ones willing to work harder.

Two (or five with MLD) months is a plenty long rifle season. Among the longest in the country. There's no need to change it. Please leave bow season alone. Better yet, pick up a bow and start bowhunting. You will love the challenge and the quiet. I can promise that most of you who do that will want to keep the separate season too.

That's why all of my places are MLD (and always will be). When I stated (correctly) earlier that rifle hunters were getting screwed, I was talking about non MLD rifle hunters.

I take care of bow hunters as well on my ranches. They are very successful with rifle hunters sharing their stage. In those three eco regions there is absolutely no noticeable difference in deer behavior with or without gun hunters.

So, my deduction is that either the hill country, south Texas plains, and west Texas all have uniquely different deer from the other Texas eco regions, or that the perception that deer change behavior patterns based on a few rifle shots in October.. is an outdated and unfounded perception.

I live with deer. I see them every day and I study them without the distraction of a 9 to 5. They still fool me sometimes. But not much.

I do agree with you however about the challenges of bow hunting and in fact I don't remember the last deer I shot with a rifle (other than mule deer). I can assure you and everyone else that if rifle hunting in October impacted bow hunting, it would be allowed only in special situations.

It's simple for me specific seasons is a product of sustainable game management, when your numbers support long seasons then you get long season. When your numbers don't support long season you don't get long season or you get more stringent weapon seasons.

It's not about tradition, it's not about fair or selfishness or wanting harder or easier hunting. In the end it's private land. If you can only take five deer or what ever the land owner allows it doesn't matter what weapon you use. It's about a non migrating sustainable resource.

So which one is it? Is it the long season or the state mandated bag limit that matters? What difference does the season length matter if you can only kill X number of animals within that season?

And why restrict buck size and set dates to kill does?



Just an observation, but in my hood a lot of folks wanting to rifle hunt during bowseason just won't fork over the money to get on a MLD lease, but feel they should get to go by those rules too. That's a feed store conversation that puts HF to shame.

The amount of deer taken based on population density that will produce sustainability is all that is important. Seasons are irrelevant on private land.

Public land is a completely different animal.

Not quite sure what you're saying, but my largest MLD ranch is low fenced.

As in folks dislike rifles in Oct more than they do HF. Consider it cheating. Just my observation in my area though.

And this also means you trust Joe Q. Privatelandowner to know his population density and adjust his take yearly. Some, like you, obviously care enough to do what needs to be done, IMO, most would not.

Get them to riddle you this then. Does anyone dove or squirrel hunt near those areas? If so there is much MUCH more gunfire than a measly ol rifle deer hunter will be responsible for.

KS and Okla has short gun seasons and lower bag limits because their herds can not handle heavy TX like harvest. Okla has lengthened gun season and increased harvest limits in this decade in accordance to growth in population numbers.

Point is. Texas has long seasons to support the NEED for balancing WT Population numbers, and to INCOURAGE higher harvest. Nothing more nothing less. In Texas we have non migrating herds, how you control your numbers is a personal choice all bow, all rifle or mixed. One long any weapon season doesn't matter hurt anything this the expansion of the MLD program

You either understand that it's all about management of harvert number to support a sustainable resource or you think it's about tradition with no relation to managing a sustainable resource.


the counties in TX that are Bow only aren't because of some random Tradition, they are bow only to support a milder harvest in accordance to maintaining herd numbers....sustainable harvest.....

Do you hunt your own property? Many here do. To me it makes no difference if you sell hunts or leases or if you only let family hunt your land, private landowners do in fact care more for their land than anyone cares for public land and would be this shooting themselves in the foot if they raped their own property.

I do know of one example of what you are talking about. And I'm absolutely certain several folks here were screwed in the past by this lady. The whiteheads down Dolan creek road used to let a lady named Barbara handle leasing their property 30-40,000 acres there at the time. They were absentee owners and let here handle all the leasing. She would go on night time counts (I know because I went with her once) and count the angora goats as deer to pad her count numbers.

Then she marketed the leases like this $1,000/year 1 trophy and one management buck. And 3 does, if you killed your 2 bucks you HAD to kill your does.

Then she'd stack hunters on at a rate of one hunter for every 100 acres. Of course, very few of them ever saw a deer, but, there is an endless supply of hunters who will jump on that "awesome" five deer deal.

I was their neighbor. And I would have had to put up a high fence if I'd stay'ed. Just ended up leasing the land around me from them to protect myself.

So yes I've seen one example like you mention. And my point is, there's always a workaround. And a private landowner will alway figure it out better than govt entities and laws can.

Those folks aren't killing deer though with a rifle during bowseason...while they wait for Nov to roll around...(presumably)

So your okay with Dove and Squirrel

I hunt the heck out of dove, hogs, and coyotes in October. No bow hunter has ever complained. I try to be respectful to their hunting area and times.

And Thats the Ticket

What's it matter if you finish your allotment in OCT or Dec?

I really don't care..I've hunted off MLD permits a lot longer than I have state tags and would pull the trigger in Oct frequently knowing I had more buck permits to last the rest of season.

I don't do much dove or squirrel hunting. But I am fine with dove and squirrel seasons being just like they are. They have been like that for years and years. So I'm not going to push an agenda against dove and squirrel hunters just because I don't participate in it, even though it might benefit me some small amount as a bowhunter.

That would be called being a hypocrite.

The complaints that I saw was that rifle hunters disturbed the pristine woods and caused the deer to change their behavior making them more difficult for bow hunters to kill. I think that's hogwash and have lots of experience to support it. Dove/squirrel hunting are a significant part.

I didnt want to say anything Rancher ...

I was just checking

And my point is that it doesn't change the deers' October patterns. Hearing guns is natural to them. Obviously you wouldn't be hunting out of the same blind with the bowhunter. But you might be hunting the waterhole in the next pasture and making it sound like a war zone. While that bowhunter has a successful hunt.

You are just saying something to say something. I've deer hunted over 40 years and nobody thinks dove and squirrel hunting affects deer like, well, deer hunting.

I think the question is: did you ruin the bowhunters' seasons by doing that?

Still doesn't answer the question Bobo. It is either one or the other. If what you are saying is true, explain the panhandle. Long season but same limit as Kansas. If what you are saying is true, why is Texas so much longer?

And again, it is not as simple as a one sentence explanation. There are many more factors than your "either or".

You keep talking about harvest numbers, but my argument has been the target on mature deer. Looking at the examples you provided, where are you more likely to see mature deer as a percentage of the herd?

At night

Said earlier most complaints I see are from folks who won't pay for MLD leases, but would rifle hunt in Oct if they could. The whole, "I can't do it so neither should you" approach.

(Up until TPWD started letting everyone & their dog go MLD, the only ones in the area were the big, well established, expensive leases that you had to "know a fella" to get on.)

"You are just saying something to say something. I've deer hunted over 40 years and nobody thinks dove and squirrel hunting affects deer like, well, deer hunting."

No sir I'm not. Your entire argument was that the gun hunters disturbed the deer in October. The disturbing factor HAS to be the rifle shots. Because ALL the other hunting activity is being carried out by bow hunters as well. Driving roads, filling feeders, putting out cameras, picking up cards etc.

I just pointed out (validly) that there are MANY more gunshots fired during October by squirrel and dove hunters than rifle deer hunters.

It greatly contradicts your argument.

"Because ALL the other hunting activity is being carried out by bow hunters as well. Driving roads, filling feeders, putting out cameras, picking up cards etc.

I just pointed out (validly) that there are MANY more gunshots fired during October by squirrel and dove hunters than rifle deer hunters.

It greatly contradicts your argument."

Great Points...They are Working Ranches, it does NOT disturb the Deer.
It's really a simple process of patterning a animal..Not Rocket Science

On our place, dove hunting goes from September through October and there are 1k's of shells shot each weekend. I don't hold much stock in this argument either.

Additional deer hunters in the woods does seem to have an effect, especially when centered around feeders.

If it was that simple, we would all get the specific deer we were after every year. This is complicated stuff man!!!

It's not the same. But I ain't gonna argue. If you want to try and sell that opening up October to hundreds of thousands of rifle hunters won't have any effect, go ahead.

At some point all these red-herring silly in-the-weeds arguments have to give way to the obvious.

It's amazing the stuff that is argued in these types of deals.

New hunting traffic/pressure all of sudden is the problem, no matter what your weapon of choice is. The deer are patterning you from your first morning hunt and after day after that.

Jshouse wants to respond.....maybe even deleted a response or 2.

Yes. And multiplying deer hunting traffic by an order of 20 who now have rifles instead of bows will have an effect.

Amazing to me that anyone would try and argue otherwise - especially those who hold themselves out as experienced hunters.

I did...you just don't need to move around so much

Let them come to you ...
It's not like Rabbit Hunting, you cant drive around and chase them till they run in a circle

What would be the difference if all 1.2 plus million hunters who bought a license started bow hunting the opening day of archery season? Same amount of traffic as on the opening day of general season. I can guarantee you any experienced hunter knows that you see less and less deer after the opening weekend until the rut starts.

Sure. But that ain't gonna happen because most of those folks aren't going to bowhunt. If they did they would be doing it already. Season's open and there - has been for 50 years. They want to rifle hunt during October instead.

Which is the whole reason for this discussion.

When did Texas have a draw for tags for whitetails?

Again seasons are about long term sustainability. They are in accordance to probability of reaching a percentage of harvest goals..

Texas is unquie in that majority of the state needs to hit harvest goals to improve herd health,


The how agruement about Tradition is dumb. It's never ever been about tradition, saying that show complete lack of understanding of why we have seasons.

Again same reason why MLD has become so popular.

Hunting is Hunting...Pressure is Pressure

No, it's not. Dove hunting and squirrel hunting ain't deer hunting. And rifle hunting ain't bowhunting.

And even if pressure is pressure, more pressure is more pressure.

Why do you worry about pressure on your niegbhors place? I encourage my neibghors to apply lots of pressure

Good for you. You just destroyed all justification for HF. (Not that I buy your premise.)

P.S. I thought deer didn't travel in your world.

Pressure is Pressure, you are incorrect.
You are basing your thoughts on your on conditions..TPWD has the entire Hunting Community in mind.

You have me mistaken, I have never argued about tradition. Just arguing the fact that season duration doesn't have the same effect that bag limits does. You have already stated that season length doesn't matter, yet you keep bringing it back up for management purposes. 2 months is ample time to fill your 3-5 tags in areas that require it.

MLD has become popular because people can get in the woods earlier. It allows rifle hunters an opportunity at mature deer and many times, well before they start breaking antlers. There aren't many ranches that actually need the extended season to fill the quota for management purposes.

Lots of folks don't give a whit about tradtion and think it's dumb. I'll grant you that. Mostly young folks who are all about getting hearing their rifle go bang and getting them a buck on the ground quick and easy. HF, October, February, whatever.....

It's the new normal in the era of Waddell and company......

There's always border deer and always core deer. Fence just divides border deer to two sides and moves their core over, not all but most. nothing more nothing less

In 40 years of hunting you should know this by now.

Who's Waddel and company ...is that a hunting show, I don't watch hunting shows, I'm normally out hunting.

How big is the core, how far will they travel...never mind, we have had that argument before and it is for a different day

As far as the topic at hand, additional pressure does move that core area and travel distance. Pressure for 3 months instead of 2 does make a difference. A bow hunter will put more pressure on the deer in most cases than a rifle hunter, but there is a correlation between the overall number of additional hunters once rifle season starts. IME, there is a valid argument that opening the season early to rifle hunters will make a difference on the habits of the deer because of the added pressure.

You know all you have to do is feed more correct...

Lol, oh the irony. It's really funny actually.

Halrious!!!!!

Pulpits about tradition, yet completely ignores why we have seasons.

Thinks it all about YOU. Lol.

Let me put this in simpler terms....why does KS have a draw for Tags and we do not? Why do they have ML restrictions on equipment and we do not. ZERO todo with tradition.

Or better yet why does CO have OTC units and Draw units for all weapons?

It has ZERO to do with Tradition has everything about sustainable harvest.

One, any weapon season, would not effect the sustainability of Texas Deer herd.

TPWD job is to maintain sustainability not pitty your tradition. Thank God they don't for the most part.

MLD is about herd management, thus why there are three levels and first two focus on doe and herd numbers first and foremost. Why you can't see the black and white on the subject is beyond me.

Sssshhhhhhhhh

So make it harder hunting...lol

That's an NP all about me response. Don't want rifle hunting in Oct, don't allow it or find a place that doesn't. In mean time let's continue down the path of being great conservations and land stewards, lets expand the MLD type season so we can maintain better control over our herd management.

Go back and read my previous post on this thread. I never denied why I didn't want the rifle season extended. I am selfish and like the woods to myself. I want the first chance to hunt mature deer when they are easier to pattern before the rifle hunters because they are much easier to kill with a rifle than a bow. I can justify my selfishness by saying that I am choosing to use a weapon that isn't as efficient, thereby taking more effort and thought to be successful. Everyone has the same choice and opportunity to do as I do.

There isn't a year that goes by that I don't get a couple of deer on camera that I don't say "I better get him before rifle season because he will die".

yeah well, I didn't want to make this about me, although Sniper, have you ever heard my story?





not that easy

JHouse ....STX filled me in...

I will pray for you Sir

It's pretty simple, if you do not take advantage of what the law allows, you have no reason to complain. Now that crossbows are legal no one has an excuse not to get out and hunt during bow season.

The reason for bow season and shooting doe only during bow season makes sense. The overall success rate is low, so they figure only a fraction of doe will be shot with a bow vs rifles. It's not a way to pick on the rifle guys, its a way to slowly introduce the option to shoot a doe where you normally would not have been able to do so.

the 6th year's the charm!

2 more letters should be carried out on that. Hogs will be real happy.

If he's still alive, he died from laughing at this...

Next year will be different...wait, we gon shock the world!...wait, hope!

You & Obama with that hope & change spiel.

ok, NOW you've crossed the line

Should've built the Trump wall.

I bet that big 8pt shows back up in March.

of course he will

Think you could kill him with a rifle in Oct? (Assuming you don't build the wall to block him off before he returns)

this past season I would say yes, prior to that I don't think it would have mattered at all.

I am an avid deer hunter and will hunt with about any legal weapon that gets me time in the woods. I also prefer the separate seasons. I love archery and agree it is a different strategy then rifle. Positioning ones self to ambush a deer at less then 25 yards in a less hunter occupied woods is different than sitting in a blind and watching territory for a rutting Buck at 25o yards. I would also love to see a separate additional muzzle loader season in Dickens county where I have my place as I sure enjoy that aspect as well.

Wow! Would love to see Doe Days for Freestone County. We have a huge population in our area.