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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: hook_n_line]
#5990646
10/23/15 05:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,230
J.G.
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There's ranches in this state that have pens that are 100 acres or more. Goo look at the 6666, the Pitchfork, parts of what was the XIT, the King, ect.
There's also ranches that the whole ranch is less than 100 acres. And yes less than 100 acres can be productive, so I have no problem with someone calling a place that size a ranch. Their definition of a pen will be different than the large ranch's definition.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5990667
10/23/15 06:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 13,639
1860.colt
emoji colt.45
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That's what I'm attempting to asses with this poll. Trying to measure perception regarding a sensitive topic. The poll is not scientific and can subjected to all sorts of criticism. Nonetheless, the results may be interesting. Figured this thread twas a loaded question... As pappy once said: Tis like an ol smoke pole, ta see who goes off half cocked ....
i'm postaddic
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5990812
10/23/15 07:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 60,296
stxranchman
Obie Juan Kenobi
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Obie Juan Kenobi
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Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views.
Are idiots multiplying faster than normal people?
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: stxranchman]
#5990820
10/23/15 07:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,668
Pitchfork Predator
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Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: stxranchman]
#5990850
10/23/15 07:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views. Or exclude 100,000's of acres of public hunting land by definition(islands, city locked, etc)
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: stxranchman]
#5990859
10/23/15 07:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 21,271
SniperRAB
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Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views. Golden
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: J.G.]
#5990860
10/23/15 07:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,404
Stickchunker
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What! No option for <10 acres Exactly. I've seen some pretty wild ones up into 10 acres, too. Good point though, a pen is a pen, no matter how big or small. It's all about mindset and verbiage I've seen crazy cattle inside a 3' wide by 20' long loading chute, too... LOL!! Right!!
In these times , 'I'll keep my God , my freedom , my gun and my money. Anyone that supports this insanity can keep "THE CHANGE".
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5990861
10/23/15 07:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,985
TonyinVA
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All we can do is hope that this thread has a quick death.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5990978
10/23/15 08:57 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,881
TurkeyHunter
OP
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OP
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Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views. Or exclude 100,000's of acres of public hunting land by definition(islands, city locked, etc) The poll may be easily criticized but the results are still interesting. I based it around a long standing question I had regarding the HF topic and how it is perceived in many different ways. Like you indicate Bobo, one point of view is that all the creatures on this earth are living inside various forms of high fence. But I'm not trying to cover that aspect with this thread. I had to guess at using <50,000 acres as a maximum because I figured anything larger was not relevant to my question.
To be determined
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: Pitchfork Predator]
#5990988
10/23/15 09:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,881
TurkeyHunter
OP
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OP
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Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views. Not voting is still a valid and helpful response. The poll and thread is definitely not trying to imply good/bad, right/wrong, ethical/unethical, question landowner's rights, create controversy, acid rancor or butthurt, etc. It's merely a sampling of perception regarding a specific question. If it gets deleted it would be nice for a mod to take a screenshot of the poll beforehand. I'd be very grateful. I'll try to take a screen shot a little later.
To be determined
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5991100
10/23/15 10:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views. Or exclude 100,000's of acres of public hunting land by definition(islands, city locked, etc) The poll may be easily criticized but the results are still interesting. I based it around a long standing question I had regarding the HF topic and how it is perceived in many different ways. Like you indicate Bobo, one point of view is that all the creatures on this earth are living inside various forms of high fence. But I'm not trying to cover that aspect with this thread. I had to guess at using <50,000 acres as a maximum because I figured anything larger was not relevant to my question. Not really what I was saying. There are 1000's of different public lands under 50k and above that follow under the same ideology of a HF but because they are public, and some being a draw tag some people choose to ignore the reality. So is its either a Pen perception or Access perception. That's all.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5991102
10/23/15 10:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
Won't vote, since I would be implying that I am trying to dictate what a private landowner can do with his land with my views. Not voting is still a valid and helpful response. The poll and thread is definitely not trying to imply good/bad, right/wrong, ethical/unethical, question landowner's rights, create controversy, acid rancor or butthurt, etc. It's merely a sampling of perception regarding a specific question. If it gets deleted it would be nice for a mod to take a screenshot of the poll beforehand. I'd be very grateful. I'll try to take a screen shot a little later. Won't get deleted as long as everyone stays respectful of others and those animals from both sides
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5991227
10/24/15 12:04 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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One guy said "once the fence goes up they become livestock".
Sorry to throw the t#*d in the punch bowl... But as soon as you use all the modern tools like feeders, scents, guns, bows, scopes, food plots, choppers, guides, etc. they in fact become livestock.
The only people who can't see that are blinded by their own ignorant ego.
Last edited by therancher; 10/24/15 12:05 AM.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#5991244
10/24/15 12:11 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,660
Dustnsand
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It's already high fences. We are surrounded by oceans
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: J.G.]
#5991296
10/24/15 12:37 AM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,954
huntwest
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There's ranches in this state that have pens that are 100 acres or more. Goo look at the 6666, the Pitchfork, parts of what was the XIT, the King, ect.
There's also ranches that the whole ranch is less than 100 acres. And yes less than 100 acres can be productive, so I have no problem with someone calling a place that size a ranch. Their definition of a pen will be different than the large ranch's definition. "Pens"as large as the ones you speak of are usually called "traps" instead of pens and have a series of smaller pens attached to work cattle. I have been to several of the ranches you speak of and those giant pens are traps. Many times to the 6666 and Tounge River.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: therancher]
#5991303
10/24/15 12:40 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,230
J.G.
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One guy said "once the fence goes up they become livestock".
Sorry to throw the t#*d in the punch bowl... But as soon as you use all the modern tools like feeders, scents, guns, bows, scopes, food plots, choppers, guides, etc. they in fact become livestock.
The only people who can't see that are blinded by their own ignorant ego. So I killed a bull elk on Colorado public land, no feeder, no food plot, no scents, no chopper, but I did use a scoped rifle. The bull was born free of any fences and died free of any fences, but according to you he was livestock? Geez...
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: J.G.]
#5991508
10/24/15 03:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
One guy said "once the fence goes up they become livestock".
Sorry to throw the t#*d in the punch bowl... But as soon as you use all the modern tools like feeders, scents, guns, bows, scopes, food plots, choppers, guides, etc. they in fact become livestock.
The only people who can't see that are blinded by their own ignorant ego. So I killed a bull elk on Colorado public land, no feeder, no food plot, no scents, no chopper, but I did use a scoped rifle. The bull was born free of any fences and died free of any fences, but according to you he was livestock? Geez... Absolutely! You used tools that effectively and artificially shrunk/retarded his ability to evade you. That gives you an "unfair" advantage that is no different than what a high fence does. I'm sorry, but when you evaluate high fences and scopes as limiting the animals ability to evade you, it really is comparable.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: 1860.colt]
#5991617
10/24/15 11:18 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,601
decook
Extreme Tracker
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As pappy once said: When ya talk bout penmanship, mine run outa ink ...
Press for an AMERICAN.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: therancher]
#5991621
10/24/15 11:34 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,601
decook
Extreme Tracker
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One guy said "once the fence goes up they become livestock".
Sorry to throw the t#*d in the punch bowl... But as soon as you use all the modern tools like feeders, scents, guns, bows, scopes, food plots, choppers, guides, etc. they in fact become livestock.
The only people who can't see that are blinded by their own ignorant ego. So I killed a bull elk on Colorado public land, no feeder, no food plot, no scents, no chopper, but I did use a scoped rifle. The bull was born free of any fences and died free of any fences, but according to you he was livestock? Geez... Absolutely! You used tools that effectively and artificially shrunk/retarded his ability to evade you. That gives you an "unfair" advantage that is no different than what a high fence does. I'm sorry, but when you evaluate high fences and scopes as limiting the animals ability to evade you, it really is comparable. therancher, is this mastodon also considered to be cattle? The Clovis tribe was using a tool to kill it. Sure I'm way outside the box, but the way I read your post the answer would still be yes.
Press for an AMERICAN.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: decook]
#5991637
10/24/15 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
One guy said "once the fence goes up they become livestock".
Sorry to throw the t#*d in the punch bowl... But as soon as you use all the modern tools like feeders, scents, guns, bows, scopes, food plots, choppers, guides, etc. they in fact become livestock.
The only people who can't see that are blinded by their own ignorant ego. So I killed a bull elk on Colorado public land, no feeder, no food plot, no scents, no chopper, but I did use a scoped rifle. The bull was born free of any fences and died free of any fences, but according to you he was livestock? Geez... Absolutely! You used tools that effectively and artificially shrunk/retarded his ability to evade you. That gives you an "unfair" advantage that is no different than what a high fence does. I'm sorry, but when you evaluate high fences and scopes as limiting the animals ability to evade you, it really is comparable. therancher, is this mastodon also considered to be cattle? The Clovis tribe was using a tool to kill it. Sure I'm way outside the box, but the way I read your post the answer would still be yes. Absolutely. If you use any tool other than tooth fang and claw you are in fact reducing the natural ability of the animal to evade you. "Cheating". Which is "unethical" to some. Now, do I believe the natural predators such as "Clovis man" or "Dallas Fort Worth man" should worry about "Cheating" their prey? Oh hale no. I don't care if you kill them with a buick. Just hunt. And don't worry about what method your competing natural predators use.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: therancher]
#5991655
10/24/15 12:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,230
J.G.
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Livestock are domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food, fiber and labor.
It says nothing of the way they are slaughtered. "Rasied" would mean a person owns them much like every animal on your ranch. "Agricultuaral setting" would be animals raised on land a person owns or leases and has control of.
Killing any animal using a tool does not make the animal livestock. A fence can make them livestock, but a rifle, bow, speer, rock, or strangulation does not make the animal livestock.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: J.G.]
#5991672
10/24/15 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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Livestock are domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food, fiber and labor.
It says nothing of the way they are slaughtered. "Rasied" would mean a person owns them much like every animal on your ranch. "Agricultuaral setting" would be animals raised on land a person owns or leases and has control of.
Killing any animal using a tool does not make the animal livestock. A fence can make them livestock, but a rifle, bow, speer, rock, or strangulation does not make the animal livestock.
By that definition, 99+% of high fences do not fit your "livestock" profile. Take your pick, but you can't have it both ways. Are we denigrating high fences because they make hunting easier? Or because they enclose breeder pens? 99+% of high fences are not breeder pens.
Crotchety old bastidge
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: J.G.]
#5991679
10/24/15 12:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,210
LuckyHunter
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Livestock are domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food, fiber and labor.
It says nothing of the way they are slaughtered. "Rasied" would mean a person owns them much like every animal on your ranch. "Agricultuaral setting" would be animals raised on land a person owns or leases and has control of.
Killing any animal using a tool does not make the animal livestock. A fence can make them livestock, but a rifle, bow, speer, rock, or strangulation does not make the animal livestock.
If you own 2,000 acres. You charge 10 hunter $2,500 ea. to have the privilege to come onto your land and harvest deer located on your land. They pay you $25,000 to shoot with bow, rifle, spear... They harvest 30 deer using man made tools designed for killing. Then in July a fellow rancher comes to your ranch and buys 30 head of cattle. He uses horses and a helicopter to capture cattle. He pays you $90,000. He then haul's them to slaughter by tools designed for killing. Would both not qualify as "Agricultural livestock setting" your land provided the habitat and you gained the income from the harvest of animals on your land? Just curious
Last edited by SheepHunter; 10/24/15 12:52 PM.
Lucky 7 Exotic Ranch located in Eden, Tx. Well managed self sustaining herds roaming our 3,000 acre ranch. First Class Lodging, Ranch style meals and qualified guides. 30+ species.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: therancher]
#5991683
10/24/15 12:53 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,230
J.G.
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99% of high fences do fit in the definition. It allows a person to raise and maintain the animals within the fence. It says nothing on acreage, and anyone that has raised animals knows the fence has to surround them. I am not saying a thing about high fence hunting being easier or not.
YOU, however chose to veer way off the raisl suggesting that any time a hunter uses ANY tool, not including a fence, it makes the animal he kills insantly livestock. I am pretty sure 99% of the population of high school educated people will disagree with you. I am not cheapening high fence hunting, but you are taking a stance that looks like you believe deep down high fence hunting is not the same as free range hunting, so you want want to cheapen the free range hunt if a hunter uses any tool what so ever. That is just silly.
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Re: What size is considered a deer pen?
[Re: J.G.]
#5991702
10/24/15 01:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 13,639
1860.colt
emoji colt.45
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99% of high fences do fit in the definition. It allows a person to raise and maintain the animals within the fence. It says nothing on acreage, and anyone that has raised animals knows the fence has to surround them. I am not saying a thing about high fence hunting being easier or not.
YOU, however chose to veer way off the raisl suggesting that any time a hunter uses ANY tool, not including a fence, it makes the animal he kills insantly livestock. I am pretty sure 99% of the population of high school educated people will disagree with you. I am not cheapening high fence hunting, but you are taking a stance that looks like you believe deep down high fence hunting is not the same as free range hunting, so you want want to cheapen the free range hunt if a hunter uses any tool what so ever. That is just silly. speaking for myself, the 1% on here that has trouble reading & understanding ya'll... As pappy once said: tis a lowfer, hunt free ranging, never hunted livestock...
i'm postaddic
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