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Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? #597668 02/12/09 06:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 37,484 Simms, Texas Big Orn OP great white gorilla
OP Big Orn great white gorilla Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 37,484 Simms, Texas	WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Hunting and gathering has a profound impact on animals and plants, driving an evolutionary process that makes them become smaller and reproduce earlier, U.S. researchers reported on Monday. Their study of hunting, fishing and collecting of 29 different species shows that under human pressure, creatures on average become 20 percent smaller and their reproductive age advances by 25 percent. "Hunters are instructed not to take smaller animals or those with smaller horns. This is counter to patterns of natural predation, and now we're seeing the consequences of this management," [Chris Darimont of the University of California, Santa Cruz] said. This is not taking into account the managed herds where genetics produce larger deer, but could affect the wild population. What say y�all? Here�s the article: Hunting Makes Animals Smaller

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: Big Orn] #597669 02/12/09 06:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx D deerfeeder THF Celebrity
deerfeeder THF Celebrity D Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx	That is pretty much what I've been preaching to the guys I feed for. Most want "antlers". Anything else is secondary. For many reasons, imo, mostly related to what is in the magazines and tv shows, B&C scores rule now. TP&W studies have shown that antler traits are hereitable, meaning certain things about a set of antlers is passed on from generation to generation. So if B&C scores are what drives the majority of the hunters it is not hard to see that as you continually take the tallest, widest,heaviest antlers out of your local deer herd, the scrawny buck who was considered not to be worth shooting is out there passing on his genes. And it happens year after year. You are killing off the exact thing you want most out of a deer. It really doesn't make any sense, when you actually stop and think about it. Last edited by deerfeeder; 02/12/09 07:00 PM.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: deerfeeder] #597670 02/12/09 07:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,468 Undercover B BenBob THF Trophy Hunter
BenBob THF Trophy Hunter B Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,468 Undercover	So everyone should hunt for a small buck with narrrow horns that are short and not very big around? Tired, Wired, and Uninspired

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: BenBob] #597671 02/12/09 07:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,685 Heath, TX A AdgerC15 THF Trophy Hunter
AdgerC15 THF Trophy Hunter A Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,685 Heath, TX	this should be good Conservation means development as much as it does protection. - Theodore Roosevelt

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: AdgerC15] #597672 02/12/09 07:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,468 Undercover B BenBob THF Trophy Hunter
BenBob THF Trophy Hunter B Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 7,468 Undercover	Quote: this should be good Professional agitator??? Tired, Wired, and Uninspired

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: BenBob] #597673 02/12/09 07:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 7,304 Godley (next to cleanliness) Big Tony THF Trophy Hunter
Big Tony THF Trophy Hunter Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 7,304 Godley (next to cleanliness)	This is a good post. We all know the 3 things it takes to grow big Deer. Assuming we are talking about low fence, age and nutrition are the 2 we need to worry about. Another thing that I think about alot is what about does? We always put more emphasis on Bucks to cull or Bucks to shoot. What about Does? How do you know if a Doe is not out of a monster Buck? It's a crap shoot at best. So what is the answer? That's a good question. "A hunt based only on trophies taken, falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be." -Fred Bear

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: Big Tony] #597674 02/12/09 08:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 450 W-ford, Hunt: Throckmorton C ChrisHen Bird Dog
ChrisHen Bird Dog C Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 450 W-ford, Hunt: Throckmorton	Well This article was written by somebody from california where evrything causes cancer and celebrities are governer so i dnt trust a damm bit of research that comes from there.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: ChrisHen] #597675 02/12/09 09:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 37,484 Simms, Texas Big Orn OP great white gorilla
OP Big Orn great white gorilla Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 37,484 Simms, Texas	I have tried to find out where they got their data, but as yet, no dice. Junk science? Anybody ever heard this before?

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: deerfeeder] #597676 02/12/09 09:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 44,461 Kingwood R rifleman Sparkly Pants
rifleman Sparkly Pants R Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 44,461 Kingwood	If you do actually stop and think about it one of the key ingredients to get the higher B&C scores is age. If at maturity it is perfectly fine to shoot the high scoring deer b/c it has already sprinkled its genes around and if you don't shoot it, mother nature will kill it for you. The area will still have relatively the same genetics and continue to have them as long as the place doesn't get shot out.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: Big Tony] #597677 02/12/09 09:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 87 K ksk Outdoorsman
ksk Outdoorsman K Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 87	Quote: This is a good post. We all know the 3 things it takes to grow big Deer. Assuming we are talking about low fence, age and nutrition are the 2 we need to worry about. Another thing that I think about alot is what about does? We always put more emphasis on Bucks to cull or Bucks to shoot. What about Does? How do you know if a Doe is not out of a monster Buck? It's a crap shoot at best. So what is the answer? That's a good question. Actually four.Harvest being the fourth.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: rifleman] #597678 02/12/09 09:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx D deerfeeder THF Celebrity
deerfeeder THF Celebrity D Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx	rifleman...yes. The key though is to let them get some age. Not everybody does that. I'm taking about a 15,000 acre lease with 15 guys on it and they take 2 bucks a year. If they all take the biggest, widest, heaviest, 2X a year, what does that leave to do the breeding? What is walking around after the season and will get a walk next year? What are you going to end up with after a decade of that? My bet is on smaller deer, at least antler wise. On the other side of the coin, bucks, does, it really doesn't matter as long as the habitat is there you will have deer. But, if you keep taking the bigger ones out then what you end up with is stuff that hasn't had a chance to reach maturity. I think the article refers more to commercial fishing than sport fishing. But, if you have structure and catch the big 'un it won't be long before another big 'un moves in. You come by and catch that one and by and by you are gonna run out of big 'uns and what moves into the structure will be a smaller big 'un because all the really big 'uns are gone. Orn, re junk science: probably because I expect that now that the "alarm" has been sounded they will need tax dollars for "research".

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: ksk] #597679 02/12/09 09:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 283 Texas T tinkerbell Bird Dog
tinkerbell Bird Dog T Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 283 Texas	This article is cr** science. The only time you will find what these people are talking about is when the population you are looking at probably went through a bottleneck due to over harvest. So a large population of individuals may have a limited amount of genetic diversity. So even though there may be 150 individuals, from a genetics perspective there may be only an effective population of 30 with different genetic codes, think "Deliverance". Thus recessive undesirable traits would be more likely to be expressed. If the herd were healthy throughout its history not to worry, typical hunting practices will not result in smaller deer. A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of the user. Theodore Roosevelt

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: deerfeeder] #597680 02/12/09 10:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 44,461 Kingwood R rifleman Sparkly Pants
rifleman Sparkly Pants R Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 44,461 Kingwood	Well you have to use common sense (some folks do...some dont). Some people will shoot those 2 bucks per season...which is fine as long as they are mature. But what I have seen are people that will shoot the one large mature deer and then settle for a mediocre 3.5-4.5 yr old b/c its the next best thing they have seen (or horn-wise was bigger than the mature buck). That happens alot on the leases I've been on, which is why we stick to "trophy hunting" on family land. There I won't have to worry about folks messing up the gene pool.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: rifleman] #597681 02/12/09 10:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,115 Texas W whitetailfanatic Veteran Tracker
whitetailfanatic Veteran Tracker W Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,115 Texas	And only shoot the does in Archery season whitetail.fanatic@yahoo.com

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: Big Orn] #597682 02/12/09 10:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,928 Garland, Texas B Bonehead Pro Tracker
Bonehead Pro Tracker B Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,928 Garland, Texas	Quote: I have tried to find out where they got their data, but as yet, no dice. Junk science? Anybody ever heard this before? Yup, another "scientific" study such as the one done by Al "Bore" Gore on man made global warming! "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind."..Dr.Suess

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: rifleman] #597683 02/12/09 10:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 8,591 Abilene, TX B BradyBuck THF Trophy Hunter
BradyBuck THF Trophy Hunter B Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 8,591 Abilene, TX	Quote: If you do actually stop and think about it one of the key ingredients to get the higher B&C scores is age. If at maturity it is perfectly fine to shoot the high scoring deer b/c it has already sprinkled its genes around and if you don't shoot it, mother nature will kill it for you. The area will still have relatively the same genetics and continue to have them as long as the place doesn't get shot out. +1 HRCH Washita's Kimber Locked N Loaded GRHRCH Firefly's Rally The Troops MH

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: BradyBuck] #597684 02/12/09 10:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,258 A AmoCuernos Pro Tracker
AmoCuernos Pro Tracker A Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,258	I bet you they aren't taking age into account (and doing it on purpose to push an agenda) ... so when hunters kill larger older animals... the ones that remain are younger and smaller bodied... take off hunting pressure... and they grow up... size returns... there is nothing genetic about it. Last edited by AmoCuernos; 02/12/09 10:57 PM.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: AmoCuernos] #597685 02/12/09 11:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 63,182 Metroplex BOBO the Clown kind of a big deal
BOBO the Clown kind of a big deal Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 63,182 Metroplex	Wonder if they took in effect the population explosion in the last 15 years???? More animals mean less to eat..means smaller bodies Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, b/c they know not victory nor defeat"- #26 TR

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: BOBO the Clown] #597686 02/12/09 11:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 44,461 Kingwood R rifleman Sparkly Pants
rifleman Sparkly Pants R Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 44,461 Kingwood	This may be slightly off topic since not dealing with horns....but I've got a question. On my dad's club we have 2 stands that are roughly 600 yards apart... on one stand even the mature does might field dress out 60 lbs....on the other stand almost every doe that comes in to the set-up will field dress out roughly 90-110. Why in the world is there that much difference??

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: AmoCuernos] #597687 02/13/09 12:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx D deerfeeder THF Celebrity
deerfeeder THF Celebrity D Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx	Quote: I bet you they aren't taking age into account (and doing it on purpose to push an agenda) ... so when hunters kill larger older animals... the ones that remain are younger and smaller bodied... take off hunting pressure... and they grow up... size returns... there is nothing genetic about it. I don't know if you were answering me or the post on top of the one I quoted. But it is genetic. If your lease/ranch/whatever has a strain of 20" wide bucks and a strain of 14" wide bucks and you keep killing the 20" bucks you are taking that trait out of the gene pool and leaving the 14" trait to be passed on. I was taking age into account. Silly me, I guess I figured other people take age into account when we are talking "big" bucks. I have no agenda, at least commercially, other than to get the absolute best possible out of a local herd. I push conservation and having the hunters take the steps necessary to get the most out of the money they spend to have their deer feed/supplemented. There is almost nothing you can do related to wildlife on a given lease that doesn't send ripples out to the other critters there. For better or worse when you do something to or in the habitat, or what is living there, it makes a difference to the rest of it.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: deerfeeder] #597688 02/13/09 12:34 AM
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 44,461 Kingwood R rifleman Sparkly Pants
rifleman Sparkly Pants R Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 44,461 Kingwood	well that depends too...I've seen some 11" wide deer that would outscore some 20" wide ones.... I'm a sucker for tine length. I get what you are saying though...hornwise it goes along with a lot of the argument against the ARs concerning a spread in the basket rack genetics. Good thing about hunting....everything is debatable and there is never just one way to correctly go about things.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: rifleman] #597689 02/13/09 12:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx D deerfeeder THF Celebrity
deerfeeder THF Celebrity D Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx	It could be for a variety of reasons. What's the terrain like between the two? Is one area in a draw and the other basically flat? Any big difference in the natural/food vegetation? Is one closer to a good bedding area or your neighbors than the other? Just some things to look at and consider.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: deerfeeder] #597690 02/13/09 01:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,258 A AmoCuernos Pro Tracker
AmoCuernos Pro Tracker A Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,258	I wasn't replying to you, but I don't agree with you at all. Baseline genetics cannot by drastically altered with rifle harvest ESPECIALLY in a free range situation.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: AmoCuernos] #597691 02/13/09 01:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx D deerfeeder THF Celebrity
deerfeeder THF Celebrity D Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,257 Southwest, Tx	Amo...I agree with you if you are talking about a handfull or less on most leases. But, when you are talking about 30 bucks a year, and the neighboring ranches are doing the same, I think it has a negative impact on the gene pool.

Re: Hunting Big Bucks make Smaller Deer? [Re: deerfeeder] #597692 02/13/09 03:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 37,484 Simms, Texas Big Orn OP great white gorilla
OP Big Orn great white gorilla Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 37,484 Simms, Texas	I know that there are genetic laws that govern populations of deer where environment isn't a factor, but there's conditions that have to be met in order to do so. First, for instance - elephants. There is proof that elephants grow shorter tusks depsite the environmental changes and/or mating habits. One theory is because of the past centuries of poaching for the ivory. But, the body-size has changed very little if at all. Since only the larger, mature bulls grow the biggest, longest tusks, how can this be? And, if one species is killed in that manner and genetic drift hasn't ocurred, then why should it in another? I am still waiting for more info about this. For now I'm just going to take it with a grain of salt.

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