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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5893658
08/24/15 08:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
It's not jealousy. It's just an instinctive feeling of what is real vs. what is artificial. Hunting is a lot more than simply killing an animal - no matter how big it may be. The sad thing is your friend probably does not know the difference. I have a feeling times are changing on all this though. I can sense these winds of change. The irony behind B&C numbers is funny. They came up with those minimums because for an animal to reach them it was a indictator that THAT location had a population that was with in CC, had good genetics, had an age structure that allowed expression of those genetics, and had the nutrition available to support expression of those Genetics... Kind of the entire premise behind a fence.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5893661
08/24/15 08:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,210
LuckyHunter
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,210 |
My point was in 1893 some passed a blanket judgement on something they had never experienced. Just like in 2015. Good read TASTE OF BLOOD and I never thought chasing down and roping a bear off a horse would be considered fair chase. TR was a great man and I give thanks he took action to save hunting, but I'm not sure he walked on water. He did in fact, save hunting (along with a few other forward thinkers of his day). The way he did it was to emphasize the "fair chase" ethic inherent in sport hunting vs. the goal of simply killing animals then exemplified by commercialized hunting. IMO that same dichotomy is just as important today. I agree 100% with your basis...This we share. I love a good wilderness hunt. 10-15 days in the mountains, sleeping under the stars... etc.. It's just I can also find a piece of that on a good HF ranch. Now I said good a term maybe only I understand. A term we will never see eye to eye on. However I will respect your opinion and wish you the best in "your" hunting experience.
Lucky 7 Exotic Ranch located in Eden, Tx. Well managed self sustaining herds roaming our 3,000 acre ranch. First Class Lodging, Ranch style meals and qualified guides. 30+ species.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893668
08/24/15 08:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,210
LuckyHunter
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 2,210 |
An acquaintance just posted up a monster typical that is growing behind one of 'his' HF places on the Book of Faces.
The deer he posted is impressive - no question. However, you can see the two-row high wire mesh fencing right behind the buck. That deer seems to be all the rage based on the comments. I just feel like there should be an asterisk hanging from the deer's antlers. I don't really want to call him out and be a 'Richard' on social media - but I need to express the conflict I feel somewhere. My bride would say get over it and I realize that is the best course of action. He is a guy that was born on third base, thinks he hit a grand slam, but married into the Hall of Fame. - I do not begrudge him for these things - I actually enjoy getting to tag along on the adventures he sets up.
They fly the jet to the airport, jump in the chopper at the hangar, and fly directly to the ranch house. Then take their top drive, camoed up, Rhino Lined, Super Duty out, smoke cigars, drink whisky, pull the trigger, and call it hunting - I don't know that I have ever seen them clean their own animal. The element of pursuit appears to have been taken out of the 'hunt' at their place. I have done all of this with them, but never once did I think I was hunting.
I think I am feeling a twinge of jealousy here, because I am proud of some of the deer on our LF place this year - deer that wouldn't hold a candle to a 190"+ typical. But there is something else there too; a feeling I can't quite put my finger on. ...I feel like they just don't get 'it.' 'It' for me is the pursuit; the hunt. On the other hand, perhaps, they look at me and say, "he just doesn't get 'it'" I am not sure what 'it' is for them.
I'm rambling/venting and see how this could go into a HF/LF debate real quick - not what I am looking for. Just a random collection of thoughts I have right now.
Just be true to yourself and enjoy , they are.
Lucky 7 Exotic Ranch located in Eden, Tx. Well managed self sustaining herds roaming our 3,000 acre ranch. First Class Lodging, Ranch style meals and qualified guides. 30+ species.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5893680
08/24/15 08:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
My point was in 1893 some passed a blanket judgement on something they had never experienced. Just like in 2015. Good read TASTE OF BLOOD and I never thought chasing down and roping a bear off a horse would be considered fair chase. TR was a great man and I give thanks he took action to save hunting, but I'm not sure he walked on water. He did in fact, save hunting (along with a few other forward thinkers of his day). The way he did it was to emphasize the "fair chase" ethic inherent in sport hunting vs. the goal of simply killing animals then exemplified by commercialized hunting. IMO that same dichotomy is just as important today. Fair chase had nothing to do with any of it!!!!! Most restocking didn't happen until after He was DEAD!!! Educating people about loosing a substantial food resource and NF system had zero to do with Fair Chase. Fair chase didn't not exist in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Fair chase LMAO!!!! When did it become fair for the prey of Humans??? There hasn't been a level playing field in recorded history of man. You want to give him credit for pushing an organization that pitted worthiness of any animals head vs it's meat. Works for me. That entire quote you just pushed is about PRIVATE Property
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893687
08/24/15 08:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
How'd they get those animals to restock? (Yellowstone elk herd)
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893702
08/24/15 09:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
His main thing was pushing the public trust doctrine and what's now the NAWCM.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: rifleman]
#5893704
08/24/15 09:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
How'd they get those animals to restock? (Yellowstone elk herd) . The how premise behind that entire quote is a voter play against wealth accumulation via land. AKA National park system
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893705
08/24/15 09:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
I can't discuss this with you Bobo. You would throw your Momma under the bus if it meant defending anything that results in an animal dying. (Or maybe just to argue with me, I'm not sure which.)
If you don't know what TR did for both hunting and wildlife conservation in this country, I cant help you.
If you don't know the founding premise of the B&C Club was conservation and fair chase (still is today), I cant help you there either. The record keeping part of B&C didn't even exist in the first 30 or so years of the Club's existence.
Last edited by Nogalus Prairie; 08/24/15 09:07 PM.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893724
08/24/15 09:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,593
redchevy
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,593 |
An acquaintance just posted up a monster typical that is growing behind one of 'his' HF places on the Book of Faces.
The deer he posted is impressive - no question. However, you can see the two-row high wire mesh fencing right behind the buck. That deer seems to be all the rage based on the comments. I just feel like there should be an asterisk hanging from the deer's antlers. I don't really want to call him out and be a 'Richard' on social media - but I need to express the conflict I feel somewhere. My bride would say get over it and I realize that is the best course of action. He is a guy that was born on third base, thinks he hit a grand slam, but married into the Hall of Fame. - I do not begrudge him for these things - I actually enjoy getting to tag along on the adventures he sets up.
They fly the jet to the airport, jump in the chopper at the hangar, and fly directly to the ranch house. Then take their top drive, camoed up, Rhino Lined, Super Duty out, smoke cigars, drink whisky, pull the trigger, and call it hunting - I don't know that I have ever seen them clean their own animal. The element of pursuit appears to have been taken out of the 'hunt' at their place. I have done all of this with them, but never once did I think I was hunting.
I think I am feeling a twinge of jealousy here, because I am proud of some of the deer on our LF place this year - deer that wouldn't hold a candle to a 190"+ typical. But there is something else there too; a feeling I can't quite put my finger on. ...I feel like they just don't get 'it.' 'It' for me is the pursuit; the hunt. On the other hand, perhaps, they look at me and say, "he just doesn't get 'it'" I am not sure what 'it' is for them.
I'm rambling/venting and see how this could go into a HF/LF debate real quick - not what I am looking for. Just a random collection of thoughts I have right now.
I know where your coming from. Once drove around a property in my pickup with a guy who made more money in a month than my world and everything in it will ever be worth. I find it mind boggling. Jealosy? Disgust? Insignificance? or just different? Im not sure what it is.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5893725
08/24/15 09:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,210
LuckyHunter
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 2,210 |
How'd they get those animals to restock? (Yellowstone elk herd) . The how premise behind that entire quote is a voter play against wealth accumulation via land. AKA National park system Sounds familiar and I was not around in 1893.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893735
08/24/15 09:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
Studies show that the happiest people are those with enough financial security to be able to be secure in the essentials - but not so much as to fulfill their every whim.
This is factual, not fantasy. There a whole lot of mega-rich folks who lead miserable lives. I know a bunch of them. Jealousy plays zero part in my observation. Money truly does not buy happiness.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5893753
08/24/15 09:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
I can't discuss this with you Bobo. You would throw your Momma under the bus if it meant defending anything that results in an animal dying. (Or maybe just to argue with me, I'm not sure which.)
If you don't know what TR did for both hunting and wildlife conservation in this country, I cant help you.
If you don't know the founding premise of the B&C Club wad conservation and fair chase (still is today), I cant help you there either. The record keeping part of B&C didn't even exist in the first 30 or so years of the Club's existence. A) I talked about the background of the BC scoring system... Show me where I'm wrong about the scoring system? B) I never said he didn't save hunting. I just said YOUR interpretation of FAIRCHASE usuage was flawed to meet YOUR personal opinion. There where no HF out side a few acres back then. Restocking efforts actually came from large protected land both private and protected public. B&C mustered lots of support that helped pass some great legislation to limit commercial hunting to re strengthen a renewable resource. No doubt about it BC and Teddy have done well for conservative Monday, August 11-2014 "On his own, self-imposed terms, Roosevelt........." My mother isn't an elistest that degraded others hunting like you do. She would never degrade another persons animal that they choose to take.... She doesn't feel like some one else's animals degrades her hunting accomplishments.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5893756
08/24/15 09:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
How'd they get those animals to restock? (Yellowstone elk herd) . The how premise behind that entire quote is a voter play against wealth accumulation via land. AKA National park system Hold on now, considering the timeframe, we're talking about public land being deeded out....that's not exactly land wealth accumulation, that's protecting a public resource.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5893767
08/24/15 09:33 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 25,387
Creekrunner
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 25,387 |
Studies show that the happiest people are those with enough financial security to be able to be secure in the essentials - but not so much as to fulfill their every whim.
This is factual, not fantasy. There a whole lot of mega-rich folks who lead miserable lives. I know a bunch of them. Jealousy plays zero part in my observation. Money truly does not buy happiness. Agreed. And there's also the moderately well off that try to act like the mega rich and they often lead miserable lives also. Both types can screw their kids up real good. Every one of us has to find the method of hunting we enjoy the most, refine that, hopefully find some others that enjoy a similar (but probably won't be exact) method, and don't worry about the others.
...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: rifleman]
#5893777
08/24/15 09:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
How'd they get those animals to restock? (Yellowstone elk herd) . The how premise behind that entire quote is a voter play against wealth accumulation via land. AKA National park system Hold on now, considering the timeframe, we're talking about public land being deeded out....that's not exactly land wealth accumulation, that's protecting a public resource. Aka why the National park system exists and expanded...To be owned by all. That whole quote NP provided... "private" game reserve, is to pit voting masses against rich private land owners "private game reserves" to expanded or protect public land against individual ownership.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893782
08/24/15 09:49 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,384
nsmike
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,384 |
Why can't we all learn to please ourselves and stop worrying about what other people do. A deer shot due to a deer drive is eligible for the book, one shot, spot and stalk, on a large HF ranch isn't. I would 100 times rather shoot the spot and stalk deer. There are some qualifiers such as from a self reproducing herd, or 2+ yrs in the pasture, things to keep it from being a canned hunt.
for every stereotype there's a prototype don't be the prototype
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks]
#5893787
08/24/15 09:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,668
Pitchfork Predator
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,668 |
I sat on a hill in Kansas and watched guys chase antelope on a 4 wheeler and watched groups of guys push deer out of standing crops to shooters. Both leave a bad taste in my mouth and are not what I consider hunting. Others view it differently and it is their choice. Some go to any means to get their name in a book. I don't hate on the animal or the height of the fence. I hunt where and how I choose these days, not how someone else wants me to so I live with my choices. By the same token I do not tell anyone else how or where to hunt, they have to make their choices and live with their results. If they invite me, I can go and hunt my style or refuse to go on the trip. Unless you're dropped off buck-naked in the woods without pre-made weapons of any sort, just about any 'hunting' you partake in has some element of convenience built into it. Your acquaintance just happens to have a lot more convenience built into his hunting than you do. I don't really think it's jealousy but a bit of that feeling is certainly envy, which we would rationalize with 'Well, I wouldn't do it that way because it's not really_________'. Well, look in the mirror, because there is probably someone less fortunate than you looking at the way you do things and making the same rationalization. It's just human nature; almost all of us do it in some form or fashion. Just keep doing what you're doing and don't worry about it too much. Well said gentlemen. Those of us that have strong beliefs in how we do things will always struggle with remaining silent about things we observe and are exposed to that we would do much differently. When I struggle with this feeling and have an urge to state my point of view when I haven't been asked for it I remember some words that were given me: "We argue and fight over things we put so much energy and passion into not realizing that in the grand scheme of things don't matter and will never be remembered a short time after we're gone. What really matters and will be remembered long after we're gone is the love that we create and give to others." I see it on this site. Many times when people have been in need or are struggling. As hunters, Texans, and Americans we all need to love on each other. Love on your friend, he will remember it when he has long forgotten about the deer he has killed, cigars he's smoked, toys etc..
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893791
08/24/15 09:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461
rifleman
Sparkly Pants
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Sparkly Pants
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 44,461 |
More geared to keep the Western states public since the East was getting choked off (which is why people were wanting to move out there...or their lack of religious acceptance). US voters were the biggest landowners due to the debt acquired through the LA purchase.... bunch of money back then and people making livings off the land inside those boundaries have the mass of voters to thank.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5893793
08/24/15 09:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091
Nogalus Prairie
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 27,091 |
How'd they get those animals to restock? (Yellowstone elk herd) . The how premise behind that entire quote is a voter play against wealth accumulation via land. AKA National park system Hold on now, considering the timeframe, we're talking about public land being deeded out....that's not exactly land wealth accumulation, that's protecting a public resource. Aka why the National park system exists and expanded...To be owned by all. That whole quote NP provided... "private" game reserve, is to pit voting masses against rich private land owners "private game reserves" to expanded or protect public land against individual ownership. He was in the NY State Assembly in 1893, 51st District of Manhattan. He was not speaking to the "voting masses" - he was penning his thoughts on conservation and sportsmanship.
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: rifleman]
#5893817
08/24/15 10:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
How'd they get those animals to restock? (Yellowstone elk herd) I would say ...President Grant did a fine Job. Do you want the rest of NP's Teddy quote? "a system of large private game preserves, kept for the enjoyment of the very rich." Aka large ranches.... When you exceed one animals home range you are a large ranch...
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893829
08/24/15 10:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 862
rattler03
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 862 |
I just looked at your thread with the game cam photo of a very nice bachelor group of bucks at your Brown County place. Those are some nice bucks, buddy. I understand your feelings when you compare yourself to your "buddy's" situation.But, you've got to lot of good things going for you at your property, too. You will always be able to find someone that has more or better stuff than you when you start comparing yourself to others. Rarely do we compare ourselves to those that have less than us, of which there are many, many people in this world. Comparing ourselves to others is almost always a losing venture, and I try not to do it but it isn't something I can completely eliminate from my thought process. Good luck this season, you look like you'll have a great season.
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: Nogalus Prairie]
#5893830
08/24/15 10:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,092
tlk
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,092 |
It is easy and common to covet what another person has - also is human nature. However no matter what one man has, someone, somewhere has more or less than that man. I believe in being thankful for the blessings I do have and if someone has more material things than I do then good for them.
I also believe to each his own. I have hunted many, many years and 98% was low fence. I took a 165 inch buck years ago on the Junco- HF yes - but 44,000 acres so it was nowhere near a canned hunt. I also bought a 600 acre ranch a few years ago and HF it. I did not do it to try to kill a huge deer - I did it to try to grow huge deer. Never planned nor intended to sell deer or hunts. Just enjoyed the challenge of trying to grow big deer. I am doing the exact same thing now but on a LF ranch I lease.
So if someone wants to pay $$ and go to a HF ranch and kill a big deer then I am fine with that. If they want to fair chase LF deer then that is fine too.
Last edited by tlk; 08/24/15 10:11 PM.
You can't fix stupid
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893856
08/24/15 10:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615
BOBO the Clown
kind of a big deal
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kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 60,615 |
He was in the NY State Assembly in 1893, 51st District of Manhattan. He was not speaking to the "voting masses" - he was penning his thoughts on conservation and sportsmanship.
Penning his thoughts as a politician to further his agenda and wants. Less then five years later he won the Governorship of NY...add 3 more years VP of the U.S. Then one year later the President of the U.S. Penning....... His thoughts... Again a late 1800's Game preserve comment is not of HF's its of land ownership, large land owner ship on top of that. No trespassing...
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: HuntnFly67]
#5893866
08/24/15 10:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,294
8pointdrop
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,294 |
You fair chase guys kill me. Humans aren't fair or we wouldn't be here in the 21st century. It ain't fair being a deer or anything else in the woods. What's fair about gunning down deer at 500yrds with rifles, or even 50yrds slinging an arrow at the ridiculous speeds of today's modern bows. We choose what dies and when and y'all want to argue what's fair?
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Re: Is it jealousy, or is it something else
[Re: BOBO the Clown]
#5893869
08/24/15 10:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179
therancher
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,179 |
How'd they get those animals to restock? (Yellowstone elk herd) I would say ...President Grant did a fine Job. Do you want the rest of NP's Teddy quote? "a system of large private game preserves, kept for the enjoyment of the very rich." Aka large ranches.... When you exceed one animals home range you are a large ranch... Teddy wasn't a private property rights champion. He got his trophies at the right time. And didn't really care if anyone following him did. He had a lot of socialist tendencies. And as was stated, fair chase is only your bare hands.
Crotchety old bastidge
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