I once read a quote from a PH who said he could tell American Hunters from European Hunters as soon as they stepped off the plane. He said an American Hunter would put a $100 scope on a $1000 gun, and European Hunters would put a $1000 scope on a $100 gun. So what is more important, your scope or gun. ( I don't want to hear those "they are equally important post either!! )

I'm going to say, he would be right spotting me.

Rifles today will shoot amazingly well from the factory and some are less than $600 (Savage & Tikka)

That being said, I'll put a $500-$1500 scope on a $600 rifle every time.

a $50,000 scope won't make a gun shoot better than MOA if its a MOA kind of factory rifle, the scope does not throw the lead. On the other hand you can shoot a 100 scope on a 5000 gun and still shoot 1/4 moa. Gun is Way more important. There are plenty of OK scopes that shoot fine if the rifle will shoot. Biggest deal is the glass is not as good and the features are not as clean.

What about the factory rifle that a hand loader can make shoot sub-MOA?

I get your point, though.

Exactly! thats why the gun is more important. A good shooting gun is a good shooting gun, a bad shooting gun is a bad shooting gun. a excellent scope does not make a bad gun better. But a excellent rifle can still shoot awesome with a junk scope.

It doesnt matter how much money the scope or the gun cost if you don't learn how to shoot or practice shooting with it.

Not entirely true.

If a scope has crap glass the shooter can't get a good sight picture. No parralax adjustment or broken parralax adjustment won't allow any rifle to shoot to its' potential. If a scope won't track worth a darn the shooter can't get the rifle to zero. What good is a sub MOA rifle that the scope won't let it hit where it is supposed to? If the scope won't track then the shooter can't dial elevation corrections in to shoot distance.

I shoot custom rifles very similar to what you build. I also have some plain vanilla factory rifles with button rifled barrels wearing scopes that cost more than the rifle. Both the factory rifle and the customs shoot MOA or better. Sure there is the possibility of a crappy factory rifle, and there is zero possibility of a crappy Horizon rifle. But when so many factory rifles will shoot MOA or better they deserve to have a scope on them that will let them work to their potential.

Very true. But that's a whole other can of worms.

True, I run a Stiller and the highest level Mark 8 on my personal rifle. aside from a broken scope, you can take a 250$ simmons or nikon and still shoot awesome with a gun that can shoot. Good example we built 2 300 win mags for a guy sponsored by nikon they all shot .25 or better. That being said if that was a 1 inch gun. a NF scope would not have made it a .25 gun.

This is true, but in "theory" we are stepping off a plane in Africa, we know how to shoot.

This to me is a very open ended question. I read it the follwoing way...

regardless of you budget, would you rather spend 80% on the gun and 20% on the scope or vice versa (and no other choices in between)? Knowing what I know now, I rather go 20% rifle and 80% scope. Then again, since it wasn't explictly forbidden, that choice is because I know I'd upgrade the rifle a lot easier than upgrading a socpe. You can get a rifle and add new things to it to make it shoot more accurately. Even a trigger job (~$120 for a Timney) vastly improves the rifle. You can't exactly buy a better lens for a scope. Meaning, the only way to upgrade a scope is selling it and getting a better one, unless someone know something i don't.

The better question is...
IF you already have abudget for rifle and scope, what is the percentage you would allocate for rifle and how much fothe glass?
my answer theses days is about 60-70% on the scope and 30-40% on rifle.

Scopes are much more than simply a set of cross hairs in a tube. What about durability, quality of glass, impact resistance, and light gathering ability?

My dad had a Tasco World Class mounted on a .300wtby. The recoil broke the reticle. That was a cheap scope, yet on the high end of the "cheap spectrum."

lets test it. I have plenty of high end rifles and I think i have an old banner scope laying around. I know i have an old vx2. someone have a gun that shoots 1-2moa and have access to a high end scope?

Right. A 1" gun will still be a 1" gun with a NF on it. But with a Barska on top it may turn into a 1 1/2" gun.

I''ve taken a $560 Tikka 7-08, made it shoot 3/4 MOA and rereatedly shot every plate to the end of the range. Reason is that I had a $1000 Vortex Viper PST on top of it.

You can't hit what you can't see.

Give me a scope that everyone would consider low end. let me see if I can get one and go shoot it on my custom Creed and see what happens.

A bad scope can (I said can, not will) make a good rifle shoot worse. A good scope won't make a bad rifle shoot better.

What did he say about people who shot iron sights?

I can vouch for a bad scope can make a decent rifle shoot far worse my Ruger 77 is a 1" MOA rifle that never shot better than 2" with a cheap Bushnell. I put a 2x7 Zeiss Terra and all of a sudden it's shooting 1" nothing else changed. The biggest reason Europeans put such high qulity scopes on their rifles is that they can shoot as early or as late as they want as long the is no artificial light. That raises an entirely different discussion.

The most expensive, German-made scope will not make you an instant marksman, as much as some might choose to believe.

Whatever scope and rifle you chose, spend what it costs to buy enough ammo to shoot at least a couple hundred rounds of ammo through it to ensure you can't miss whatever it is you're shooting at. Otherwise, that expensive scope will just make you believe you're an excellent marksman.

It brings to mind the comments from a well-known guide from the Northwest who once said (and I will try to paraphrase), "When a client shows up with a fancy rifle and expensive, German-made scope, I look for a trip filled with four-letter words and missed opportunities. But when a guy shows up with a beat up rifle and a fixed, four power scope atop it, I know there will be meat to pack."

All this sounds like old man behind the gun counter talk

^^That's right^^

I put an $1100 Leupold on a $280 rifle, does that count?

It depends on the scope...if it's MIL then you better spend more on the rifle, if it's MOA then you are alright spending it on the scope

If you get a cheap scope that doesn't track you will not be able to shoot at long range consistently